Is anyone running on E85?

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6/9/2017 8:38 PM
Edited Date/Time: 6/9/2017 8:58 PM

Just curious if it's possible to convert to E85, specifically on Newer KTM 450s without upping the injector or fuel pump size. Does anyone know what the duty cycle is on the stock injector at WOT?

I recently converted my car to E85 and holy hell did it make power

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6/9/2017 8:41 PM

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much ty. How to spot a paid forum poster/artificial forum traffic producer (see list of actions/phrases below):

Copius pattern amounts of phrases like “Anyone have”..., “Anybody know?”.... and their variations.

Thoughts?
Any help is appreciated!
Thanks in advance!





6/9/2017 8:53 PM

yeah, none of those threads relate to injector or fuel pump duty cycles. I'm curious if anyone has any info on how much room is left on stock fuel system components

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6/9/2017 8:55 PM

Charper732 wrote:

Just curious if it's possible to convert to E85, specifically on Newer KTM 450s without upping the injector or fuel pump size. Does anyone know what the duty cycle is on the stock injector at WOT?

I recently converted my car to E85 and holy hell did it make power

i am sure it is doable. As you know it takes roughly 25-30% more fuel to make E85 engines happy. I'm doubting the injector is only at 65-70% duty cycle, but you never know. A proper injector would not be that hard to find. I have played around very little with EFI maps on bikes, but I am assuming it is possible to advance the timing enough to cover the slow burn. Probably be able to up your compression a fair bit too.

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Tomac and/or Anderson for 2020.....

6/9/2017 9:01 PM

BobPA wrote:

i am sure it is doable. As you know it takes roughly 25-30% more fuel to make E85 engines happy. I'm doubting the injector is only at 65-70% duty cycle, but you never know. A proper injector would not be that hard to find. I have played around very little with EFI maps on bikes, but I am assuming it is possible to advance the timing enough to cover the slow burn. Probably be able to up your compression a fair bit too.

The ignition advance is what im after. Actually, now that I think about it, Many 250f are running 13.5-14.0 comp. On E85 you could advance the ignition quite a bit and gain a lot of torque on the low end. 450 injector on a 250...I think I just answered my own question. lol

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6/9/2017 10:17 PM

kzizok wrote:

http://m.vitalmx.com/search?cat=Site&q=E85&cx=002903112843658474654%3A5jej5zin7sy&cof=FORID%3A9

Charper732 wrote:

yeah, none of those threads relate to injector or fuel pump duty cycles. I'm curious if anyone has any info on how much room is left on stock fuel system components

Yeah, I didnt know. Just knew there was a lot of info.

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much ty. How to spot a paid forum poster/artificial forum traffic producer (see list of actions/phrases below):

Copius pattern amounts of phrases like “Anyone have”..., “Anybody know?”.... and their variations.

Thoughts?
Any help is appreciated!
Thanks in advance!





6/9/2017 10:29 PM

That's some corrosive water loving fuel to be running through a 10k bike.

Stick to mtbe

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6/9/2017 10:50 PM

Bruce372 wrote:

That's some corrosive water loving fuel to be running through a 10k bike.

Stick to mtbe

Don't believe all the things you read on the internet. My car and other cars way more expensive than mine run it 100% of the time.

I'm by no means a fuel expert, but I did work as a tech for 7 years and have seen some intense corrosion from oxygenated fuels...talking about exhaust valves seized to the guides.

I do know E85 has a longer shelf life than an oxygenated fuel. So for anyone that runs oxygenated fuels now, it would be no different as they are draining the system between uses

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6/9/2017 10:56 PM

My pops and I run E85 in one of our bracket cars. The biggest issue was not getting the car to run proper, but in dealing with how corrosive it is. I think the biggest issue you will have will be how it affects all the fuel system components: pump parts, fuel lines, injector seals, etc.. Make sure all that stuff is e85 compatible. Also be aware that it can absorb quite a bit of water too, so leaving it in you bike for extended periods may not be the best play. We drain our car after every race. Also, if you're planning on running it out of the pump,
Invest in a tester from Summit Racing. Sometimes it's E80, and sometimes it E90 coming out of the pump.

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6/10/2017 6:20 AM

It's simple take e85 pour alittle on the ground then pour regular gas next to it and light each one. After they burn of look at the oil residue left from the e85 that's what's left in your fuel system and combustion chamber. There is zero reason to use that junk. I have had so many cars come in with drivability issues because of e85. If you can afford a new ktm you can afford the right gas.

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6/10/2017 6:22 AM

metanol blended fuel also has much less power per unit than normal gasoline :
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6/10/2017 9:15 AM

Would be much easier to run high octane race gas right away.

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#1
KX125

6/10/2017 9:21 AM

We run it in a few cars, only because the rules state that it must run on "pump gas". We've had to change fuel lines, filters, pumps and injectors. We also added a gm e85 content sensor to the return line, that's the only way you can correctly use it. It's a pain to deal with, if you can run real race gas, just run that. It's. It worth it unless you have rules that force you to do it.

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6/10/2017 9:26 AM

Not a fan of that fuel ! There's no way I'm putting that crap in my bikes !!

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6/10/2017 9:29 AM

Bruce372 wrote:

That's some corrosive water loving fuel to be running through a 10k bike.

Stick to mtbe

What do you think oxygenated race fuel is loaded with in California?

And if your rig can run E10, it's designed to stand the effects of alcohol parts, rubber, and gasket wise, because they build in a tolerance for even E15.

It's still shit fuel, but anything with MTBE here is pretty much banned for sale.

Learn how to pickle an engine is what I tell people. You can run 100% alcohol of either kind in anything if you do that.

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6/10/2017 9:31 AM

How much sooner would you run out of fuel using the E85? Like 35ish percent sooner?

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6/10/2017 9:33 AM

MR. X wrote:

How much sooner would you run out of fuel using the E85? Like 35ish percent sooner?

Yup

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#1
KX125

6/10/2017 9:41 AM
Edited Date/Time: 6/10/2017 9:43 AM

E85 has taken over in the performance street car world. The shit is magic, 300hp cars jump to 400+ and gobs more tourqe with the supporting tune and the mods to increase the fuel volume that e85 requires. It's better than some race fuels but also cheap. I've always wondered if anybody has been experimenting with it in a moto bike. But I don't think moto bikes have enough room in our little tanks. Plus when you only need to buy 5 gallons of fuel you can just buy whatever race fuel will be best in that application. We don't need to fill up at the gas station to make it to work like in a street car.

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6/10/2017 9:48 AM

Ridelow wrote:

metanol blended fuel also has much less power per unit than normal gasoline :
">

haha, that guy is funny as fuck. But yah, in street vehicles Ethanol or Methanol is shit.
For racing applications, it works though where mileage isn't a concern.

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6/10/2017 11:22 AM

langhammx wrote:

Not a fan of that fuel ! There's no way I'm putting that crap in my bikes !!

Not crap at all. Educate yourself a bit and you will see the advantages it creates. Just a pain in the ass if your vehicle is going to not be used frequently.

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Tomac and/or Anderson for 2020.....

6/10/2017 12:06 PM

I tried it in my f150. Runs fine but at least 20% less mileage so there is no cost savings. there is some truth to being hard on rubber, corrosive etc, but not anywhere near what people think. I have a friend who buys just enough e10 pump gas for the day as he is AFRAID to let it sit a week.

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6/10/2017 12:08 PM

Bruce372 wrote:

That's some corrosive water loving fuel to be running through a 10k bike.

Stick to mtbe

RhinoRider wrote:

What do you think oxygenated race fuel is loaded with in California?

And if your rig can run E10, it's designed to stand the effects of alcohol parts, rubber, and gasket wise, because they build in a tolerance for even E15.

It's still shit fuel, but anything with MTBE here is pretty much banned for sale.

Learn how to pickle an engine is what I tell people. You can run 100% alcohol of either kind in anything if you do that.

The race fuel I buy in California uses MTBE.

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6/10/2017 12:13 PM
Edited Date/Time: 6/10/2017 12:16 PM

langhammx wrote:

Not a fan of that fuel ! There's no way I'm putting that crap in my bikes !!

BobPA wrote:

Not crap at all. Educate yourself a bit and you will see the advantages it creates. Just a pain in the ass if your vehicle is going to not be used frequently.



After reading this, I can only conclude that people have been drinking e85
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6/10/2017 1:12 PM
Edited Date/Time: 6/10/2017 1:14 PM

Bruce372 wrote:

That's some corrosive water loving fuel to be running through a 10k bike.

Stick to mtbe

RhinoRider wrote:

What do you think oxygenated race fuel is loaded with in California?

And if your rig can run E10, it's designed to stand the effects of alcohol parts, rubber, and gasket wise, because they build in a tolerance for even E15.

It's still shit fuel, but anything with MTBE here is pretty much banned for sale.

Learn how to pickle an engine is what I tell people. You can run 100% alcohol of either kind in anything if you do that.

Bruce372 wrote:

The race fuel I buy in California uses MTBE.

I didn't say it wasn't available. I said it's pretty much banned and most won't sell it anymore due to risk of people putting it in street vehicles.

And before you say your bike is a race vehicle, read this.

https://www.arb.ca.gov/enf/advs/advs397.pdf

Especially the part where it defines Competition vehicles.

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6/10/2017 3:08 PM

Wow so much misinformation and cliche misconceptions in this thread. Anyone who comes from the automotive racing world knows the possibilities and how widely used it's become with great results. I don't see why it couldn't work in a dirt bike with the proper components and tuning. One draw back I see in cars is inconsistency of ethanol content from the pump, so that's something to consider if using pump fuel.

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6/10/2017 3:55 PM
Edited Date/Time: 6/10/2017 5:12 PM

E85 has its place in the performance world but I'm not sure I'd bother running it in an mx bike. Simply because the volume of fuel an mx bike runs through is not all that much. Ive run it in my turbo supra for 7+ years and it's awesome, but I have fuel pumps designed for use with it, use ptfe fuel lines and have my injectors cleaned regularly. The resistance to knock is amazing. 34 pounds of boost and 16 degrees timing, no sweat, $2.75 a gallon...even better. But I've seen the long term effects of it. Rubber lines and fuel pumps break down, injectors get gummed up easily especially if you let the motor sit for extended periods of time, and it often leaves a black gummy substance on intake port tracks. For a car that uses a high volume of fuel, it's a money saver, but there is an extra level of maintenance. I run a custom flex fuel setup so I can run 91 octane through on occasion to help clean things out.

Now I'll finish my rambling with this. You don't need 85% ethanol content to start seeing the benefits. If you could run an e30 to e50 blend you'd be able to run plenty of timing and it would save you some overhead on fuel volume. Even on e65-ish my car shows no sign of knock on that same 34psi and 16 degrees timing.

To the original question, if you know the flow rate of the ktm injector at a given fuel pressure, know what the fuel pressure is (and static or rising) then you can determine how much fuel and horsepower you are capable of supporting. Fuel pump, you'd have to find liter per hour rating which shouldn't be too tough.

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6/10/2017 6:28 PM

Used to run a mix with race gas and alchohol back in my 2 stroke flat track days. Was able to make it work and well. But for the hassle mixing and having to use some acetone to keep it mixed made it a hassle for the resulting power. Was better on the longer 3/8 and up tracks.

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well we ain't the smartest folks in the world...i mean we're fucking dirtbike riders for christ sakes.- BobbyM

If you chose not to decide you still have made a chioce.



6/10/2017 7:13 PM

So, you are wanting more power for your 450? Big power is fine if it is rideable power.

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Take it to the limit, one more time!

6/10/2017 7:55 PM

It may be cheaper but you use more. It does burn cooler and is a higher octane so in a racing application it can be good. One problem with the pump E85 is it isn't consistently the same, so we run C85 VP. BP has the range in the fine print and we learned the hard way. Not sure it would have any advantages in a dirt bike.

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6/10/2017 9:13 PM

So much misinformation in this thread...

If you build the bike to take advantage of E85 (higher CR, properly designed fuel system, and calibrated properly) you would see some large benefits. As mentioned by some other users, this is done pretty commonly in the automotive world (more so with boosted engines, though). You'd see some pretty large benefits from lower charge temperatures due to evaporative cooling at a minimum. I'd strongly suggest bumping the compression ratio significantly if you do actually decide to move forward with this build.

There are some challenges associated with E85, though. A few are: the inconsistency of ethanol content at the pump, ethanol's affinity for water, fuel system material compatibility, and difficulties with cold start.

Anyway, the best way to figure out the flow rate of the stock injector is to see if you can cross reference the injector part number over to an automotive equivalent and find flow specs that way. If you can't find that, you can flow test the injector pretty easily on your own, or ship it off to be tested. Some places will​ do that work pretty cheap, and can sell you a larger injector if stock won't work.

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