Is SX the only Sport nobody cheats ?

500guy
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1/9/2014 7:47pm Edited Date/Time 1/11/2014 11:41am
Think about it, lots at stake here and not one Team or top rider bending the rules ?

Why is it nobody gets caught cheating ? Are we supposed to think this is the only Sport in the World without Cheaters?
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Whitey
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1/9/2014 7:53pm
What have you heard Jay?

Rumors of miscreants among the upper echelon?
SwapperMX
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1/9/2014 7:54pm
Well this could help prove or disprove your case. But, Ricky getting disqualified for failing a fuel sample was considered cheating, hence the disqualification. There was an uproar because of it, and the points were re-instated several weeks later.

Daytona 2012 with Renner riding a 150cc two stroke in the "125" class ??? Cheating ??? Told everyone on Vital that it was actually a 150, not a 125. Had his bike torn down at the next race.
GoonSquad250x
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1/9/2014 7:54pm
Whos been dening that theyve been cheating? And what are thry doing to cheat?
500guy
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1/9/2014 7:58pm
Whitey wrote:
What have you heard Jay?

Rumors of miscreants among the upper echelon?
I haven't heard anything, I'm just wondering why nobody has been caught in a long time. I guess the only one trying to get an unfair advantage is Tony Alessi (sarcasm)

The Shop

500guy
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1/9/2014 7:59pm
SwapperMX wrote:
Well this could help prove or disprove your case. But, Ricky getting disqualified for failing a fuel sample was considered cheating, hence the disqualification. There was...
Well this could help prove or disprove your case. But, Ricky getting disqualified for failing a fuel sample was considered cheating, hence the disqualification. There was an uproar because of it, and the points were re-instated several weeks later.

Daytona 2012 with Renner riding a 150cc two stroke in the "125" class ??? Cheating ??? Told everyone on Vital that it was actually a 150, not a 125. Had his bike torn down at the next race.
Renner never tried it and the deal with Ricky was all a bigger issue with Whitelock and his knee jerk reactions.
Underdog999
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1/9/2014 8:02pm Edited Date/Time 1/9/2014 8:05pm
500guy wrote:
I haven't heard anything, I'm just wondering why nobody has been caught in a long time. I guess the only one trying to get an unfair...
I haven't heard anything, I'm just wondering why nobody has been caught in a long time. I guess the only one trying to get an unfair advantage is Tony Alessi (sarcasm)
So then, you don't consider Jeff Alessi pointing the laser in rv's eyes cheating?...... oops, just noticed you wrote SX! That was done in MX!
RonSkj
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1/9/2014 8:04pm
Who is cheating more?
Alessi with his gate sensing device.
Stewart with his traction control
Or
Villopotos flag color neutralizing contact lens?
1/9/2014 8:06pm
I bet you could find a few big bore 250 four strokes somewhere on the starting gate. Just a guess though
dirtnapper
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1/9/2014 8:09pm
RonSkj wrote:
Who is cheating more?
Alessi with his gate sensing device.
Stewart with his traction control
Or
Villopotos flag color neutralizing contact lens?
Laughing at your last sentence!!
500guy
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1/9/2014 8:10pm
So then, you don't consider Jeff Alessi pointing the laser in rv's eyes cheating?...... oops, just noticed you wrote SX! That was done in MX!
I'm talking more along the lines of Bikes that are not legal, IE: Frames, Suspension, Engines, Fuel and Oil.

Or even Performance enhancing drugs , not one rider on any side of the pond is using anything ?
SwapperMX
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1/9/2014 8:12pm
I bet you could find a few big bore 250 four strokes somewhere on the starting gate. Just a guess though
I totally agree !!
Socket946
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1/9/2014 8:13pm
500guy wrote:
Think about it, lots at stake here and not one Team or top rider bending the rules ? Why is it nobody gets caught cheating...
Think about it, lots at stake here and not one Team or top rider bending the rules ?

Why is it nobody gets caught cheating ? Are we supposed to think this is the only Sport in the World without Cheaters?
Jay, the NFL/MLB/WADA FINALLY found a way to test for HGH...for 8+ years it's been in use, they couldn't find a way to detect it on a consistent basis.

Until Feld/MXsports spend the money to have USADA deploy the bio-passport, the ease of using HGH is too easy.
SwapperMX
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1/9/2014 8:18pm
SwapperMX wrote:
Well this could help prove or disprove your case. But, Ricky getting disqualified for failing a fuel sample was considered cheating, hence the disqualification. There was...
Well this could help prove or disprove your case. But, Ricky getting disqualified for failing a fuel sample was considered cheating, hence the disqualification. There was an uproar because of it, and the points were re-instated several weeks later.

Daytona 2012 with Renner riding a 150cc two stroke in the "125" class ??? Cheating ??? Told everyone on Vital that it was actually a 150, not a 125. Had his bike torn down at the next race.
500guy wrote:
Renner never tried it and the deal with Ricky was all a bigger issue with Whitelock and his knee jerk reactions.
He qualified for the Daytona night show 2012. Bike seized in his first heat.
1/9/2014 8:27pm
SwapperMX wrote:
Well this could help prove or disprove your case. But, Ricky getting disqualified for failing a fuel sample was considered cheating, hence the disqualification. There was...
Well this could help prove or disprove your case. But, Ricky getting disqualified for failing a fuel sample was considered cheating, hence the disqualification. There was an uproar because of it, and the points were re-instated several weeks later.

Daytona 2012 with Renner riding a 150cc two stroke in the "125" class ??? Cheating ??? Told everyone on Vital that it was actually a 150, not a 125. Had his bike torn down at the next race.
Reed was disqualified for the same reason the pervious year but his points were not re-instated, if they were he would have another championship to his name. If his points from that year were re-instated and rickys points from the following year were not re-instated then he would have 2 more championships to his name!
Matt Fisher
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1/9/2014 8:46pm
RonSkj wrote:
Who is cheating more?
Alessi with his gate sensing device.
Stewart with his traction control
Or
Villopotos flag color neutralizing contact lens?
dirtnapper wrote:
Laughing at your last sentence!!
Agreed. LaughingLaughing
mx836
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1/9/2014 8:46pm
If I recall correctly, the reason RC's fuel failed was due to using the same holding tanks as before the rule change. The tanks apparently absorbed some of the lead causing the new fuel to fail by a minuscule amount.
Motodave15
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1/9/2014 8:47pm
500guy wrote:
I'm talking more along the lines of Bikes that are not legal, IE: Frames, Suspension, Engines, Fuel and Oil. Or even Performance enhancing drugs , not...
I'm talking more along the lines of Bikes that are not legal, IE: Frames, Suspension, Engines, Fuel and Oil.

Or even Performance enhancing drugs , not one rider on any side of the pond is using anything ?
ahh, The Good Stuff!! That's all hush hush man.

I really really wonder, whats going on in that relm!!!

Somebody has to be reading some fine lines in the rulebook, somebody somewhere.


I know it still runs rampant in neckcar, there rule book along with F1...Is down to hundreths of inches in some areas...I dont think mx is that critical yet
1/9/2014 9:02pm Edited Date/Time 1/9/2014 9:04pm
If only it were as easy as horse racing. Stick a bag of cocaine in Hansens face and nobody would touch him. And if questioned it was clearly only the holeshot chalk-line residue on his nose....

I really don't think people are cheating though. Even if a privateer cheats to try to gain an edge he's still nowhere close to the factory equipment, money or training regimens.
lostboy819
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1/9/2014 9:07pm
I think there is a cheating. I just think nobody is trying to find it.Wink
KennyT
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1/9/2014 9:13pm
Because in the world of sports MX/SX is a drop in the bucket, other than us fans/participants it does not exist to the rest of society. I do not ever see it being large enough to have testing that is comparable to what they have in mainstream sports.....on machinery or bodies.
lostboy819
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1/9/2014 9:48pm
mx836 wrote:
If I recall correctly, the reason RC's fuel failed was due to using the same holding tanks as before the rule change. The tanks apparently absorbed...
If I recall correctly, the reason RC's fuel failed was due to using the same holding tanks as before the rule change. The tanks apparently absorbed some of the lead causing the new fuel to fail by a minuscule amount.
That was their excuse anyway.
Woobia 22
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1/9/2014 10:58pm
Didn/t KW call Reed a cheat and stated I knew there was something wrong. Then after a few years and he finds that it was the Gas cans. Always wondered why Chad hasn't tried to have that Cheating tag erased.

I knew a great local Rider who tested positive to Hooch and was given 3 years. He didn't appeal and while getting ready to commence racing again he unfortunately was killed in a road bike accident.

At the time I tried to get an appeal but I had found out too late and missed the deadline for an appeal.

RIP Dan my friend Top bloke and Great Family.

I would like to see Lie detector tests conducted, I know they are not 100% but 95% is better than none.
willie838
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1/9/2014 11:48pm
haha

in a sport that requires this level of training and endurance you're insane to think that some steroids are not in play. If nothing else for the recovery factor. Blood doping wouldn't suprise me at all either.
enketchum
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1/10/2014 12:20am
I believe there is someone, somewhere cheating in this sport.

Watson talked about Deegan running big bores in the 125 national series for MotoXXX. He pulled a fat holeshot at one of the races, dropped back 4 positions not to be noticed, and Watson ripped the jug off the bike as soon as he came into the pits.

"That's my guy!"
1/10/2014 1:54am Edited Date/Time 1/10/2014 2:30am
500guy wrote:
Think about it, lots at stake here and not one Team or top rider bending the rules ? Why is it nobody gets caught cheating...
Think about it, lots at stake here and not one Team or top rider bending the rules ?

Why is it nobody gets caught cheating ? Are we supposed to think this is the only Sport in the World without Cheaters?
Really...how are you going to bend the rules...in the 450 class especially.

#1 How do you "cheat" with equipment - especially in SX?

#2HP? Last year...at Oakland, Andrew Short rode a showroom CR450F with a HC piston, aftermarket pipe, and Kit Suspension (ENZO)...which he set up himself. He finished P6. He did no better on the works BTO Sports KTM 450. In what motorsport...can someone go to a dealer...buy a stock vehicle. ... Do $800 in motor work...put about $4000 into kit suspension, and do just as well as you can on a team machine? In SX...the tires can not put down all the HP that the motors provide...so "cheating" on HP will do little good. In fact, it gets to a point where more HP makes the bike harder to ride.

Now, in the 250 class...outdoors especially, HP IS very important...and the AMA does very little in the way of engine tech. The most likely way to cheat is fuel..but the legal gas they are running is pretty juiced up already...I am not sure what is to be gained... Today's 250 cylinders do not have much wall thickness to allow for overbore and the speed and heat they run these motors as. Stroke? A little of both? Possibly, but I doubt it...and certainly not the top teams where the top riders are. If anyone it playing games, it is privateers who do not have the money to twist motor RPMs up to make HP..... But then again...where are they going to get the money to do this. One of the sweetest kits out there for 250s...the MaxPower 315cc (+4mm bore, +7mm stroke) set up...cost over $3K. It was so expensive they stopped selling it in 2009. A privateer is going to drop $3K...so he can finish 15th instead of 18th?...and take home what..an extra $250 in prize money? It is a joke.... There is NO money for riders in this sport...unless you are a top 10 guy....and even then the money is still a joke.

#3Weight? The 450 limit is 220# dry...and most teams come in at 223-224. KTM a little more due to the starter. How can you cheat the scale?

#4Chassis? It is pretty easy to check homologation on the chassis. Yes...teams can re-machine the steering tube...or use special bearings...but that has been going on for years. A privateer with a good milling machine and jigs and knowledge can do the same.

#5Suspension? It is essentially open....

#6 PEDs? PEDs dont make you go faster...they allow you to ride your existing peak speed...for longer. Last year...NO ONE else had RVs sprint speed at most events.

RD was in the groove at one race (hometown)...and came on at the end...and beat RV. JS was in the groove at Atlanta..and won there. So...if RVs speed is due to doping...did RD and JS take drugs for just those events to get even?

It is nonsensical. And FYI...RV was ON the international doping list (WADA) last year...and had to submit to (real blood) tests a few times...and he passed. Bet most of you did not know that.

If we see two riders...who are equal in speed...and one rider can run that pace the whole race...and the other cant...THEN you can point to fitness. But fitness is secondary. If you don't have the outright sprint speed (SKILL/TALENT)...then claiming the fast guy is fast because he is on PEDS is nonsense.

Look at RC...he is a doughboy now. Guess what...he can still turn laps that would put him top 10...but he can only do it for 2-3 laps. When he does testing at RCH...he is regularly faster than Tickle! Again...fitness allows you to run pace for longer...it does not change your pace. Skill and talent dictate pace. Fitness determines how long you can run that pace. 30s...3:00 minutes....30 minutes...etc.

If you let RD take EPO...HGH...and juice in the off season...do you really think that will close the gap to RV? Is a cycle of Sustanon 250 going to make James crash less? Are stimulants going to help Mike Alessi get through the whoops?

#7Where else can you cheat? I guess you can cut the track...but that is pretty hard to do in a SX. You can try to crash out your competitors, but the officials will get you, or the payback will get you. Lasers? That did not work so well now did it...


I think the very nature of MX/SX makes it very hard to "cheat" in the sense many of you are assuming.

Finally..the sad thing is there is really NOT a lot of money on the line. There is virtually NOTHING at stake compared to other sport. Once you get out of the top 6-8 riders...the money in MX/SX is crap. It is a complete JOKE. If you make an NFL roster...you make $400K a year...even if you never play a down. There are probably 5 or so players on each team that are at this lowest level of making it. If you are practice squad....you make less than $100K a year. Now THAT is a real incentive to juice. (+$300K)

What about MX. You have maybe 4-5 guys in the 450s...the BEST guys in the world...making 7 figures...and that includes endorsement deals. The 20th best guy in the world...he makes $200K if he is LUCKY that. If you are the 100th best MX racer in the WORLD...you are probably lucky to make $50K. It is a COMPLETE JOKE. You would be better off just getting a normal job...and avoiding the medical bills. MXers do not do it for the money...they do it for the dream..the competition, and the love of the sport....or because that is all they know. Sorry but the money math for doing PEDs is just not there.... I am sure there are few knucklehead bros in socal doing it...and I am sure that they are used to speed up injury recovery...but they are not going to improve speed on the track the way people think...
Crush
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1/10/2014 2:25am
Really...how are you going to bend the rules...in the 450 class especially. #1 How do you "cheat" with equipment - especially in SX? #2HP? Last year...at...
Really...how are you going to bend the rules...in the 450 class especially.

#1 How do you "cheat" with equipment - especially in SX?

#2HP? Last year...at Oakland, Andrew Short rode a showroom CR450F with a HC piston, aftermarket pipe, and Kit Suspension (ENZO)...which he set up himself. He finished P6. He did no better on the works BTO Sports KTM 450. In what motorsport...can someone go to a dealer...buy a stock vehicle. ... Do $800 in motor work...put about $4000 into kit suspension, and do just as well as you can on a team machine? In SX...the tires can not put down all the HP that the motors provide...so "cheating" on HP will do little good. In fact, it gets to a point where more HP makes the bike harder to ride.

Now, in the 250 class...outdoors especially, HP IS very important...and the AMA does very little in the way of engine tech. The most likely way to cheat is fuel..but the legal gas they are running is pretty juiced up already...I am not sure what is to be gained... Today's 250 cylinders do not have much wall thickness to allow for overbore and the speed and heat they run these motors as. Stroke? A little of both? Possibly, but I doubt it...and certainly not the top teams where the top riders are. If anyone it playing games, it is privateers who do not have the money to twist motor RPMs up to make HP..... But then again...where are they going to get the money to do this. One of the sweetest kits out there for 250s...the MaxPower 315cc (+4mm bore, +7mm stroke) set up...cost over $3K. It was so expensive they stopped selling it in 2009. A privateer is going to drop $3K...so he can finish 15th instead of 18th?...and take home what..an extra $250 in prize money? It is a joke.... There is NO money for riders in this sport...unless you are a top 10 guy....and even then the money is still a joke.

#3Weight? The 450 limit is 220# dry...and most teams come in at 223-224. KTM a little more due to the starter. How can you cheat the scale?

#4Chassis? It is pretty easy to check homologation on the chassis. Yes...teams can re-machine the steering tube...or use special bearings...but that has been going on for years. A privateer with a good milling machine and jigs and knowledge can do the same.

#5Suspension? It is essentially open....

#6 PEDs? PEDs dont make you go faster...they allow you to ride your existing peak speed...for longer. Last year...NO ONE else had RVs sprint speed at most events.

RD was in the groove at one race (hometown)...and came on at the end...and beat RV. JS was in the groove at Atlanta..and won there. So...if RVs speed is due to doping...did RD and JS take drugs for just those events to get even?

It is nonsensical. And FYI...RV was ON the international doping list (WADA) last year...and had to submit to (real blood) tests a few times...and he passed. Bet most of you did not know that.

If we see two riders...who are equal in speed...and one rider can run that pace the whole race...and the other cant...THEN you can point to fitness. But fitness is secondary. If you don't have the outright sprint speed (SKILL/TALENT)...then claiming the fast guy is fast because he is on PEDS is nonsense.

Look at RC...he is a doughboy now. Guess what...he can still turn laps that would put him top 10...but he can only do it for 2-3 laps. When he does testing at RCH...he is regularly faster than Tickle! Again...fitness allows you to run pace for longer...it does not change your pace. Skill and talent dictate pace. Fitness determines how long you can run that pace. 30s...3:00 minutes....30 minutes...etc.

If you let RD take EPO...HGH...and juice in the off season...do you really think that will close the gap to RV? Is a cycle of Sustanon 250 going to make James crash less? Are stimulants going to help Mike Alessi get through the whoops?

#7Where else can you cheat? I guess you can cut the track...but that is pretty hard to do in a SX. You can try to crash out your competitors, but the officials will get you, or the payback will get you. Lasers? That did not work so well now did it...


I think the very nature of MX/SX makes it very hard to "cheat" in the sense many of you are assuming.

Finally..the sad thing is there is really NOT a lot of money on the line. There is virtually NOTHING at stake compared to other sport. Once you get out of the top 6-8 riders...the money in MX/SX is crap. It is a complete JOKE. If you make an NFL roster...you make $400K a year...even if you never play a down. There are probably 5 or so players on each team that are at this lowest level of making it. If you are practice squad....you make less than $100K a year. Now THAT is a real incentive to juice. (+$300K)

What about MX. You have maybe 4-5 guys in the 450s...the BEST guys in the world...making 7 figures...and that includes endorsement deals. The 20th best guy in the world...he makes $200K if he is LUCKY that. If you are the 100th best MX racer in the WORLD...you are probably lucky to make $50K. It is a COMPLETE JOKE. You would be better off just getting a normal job...and avoiding the medical bills. MXers do not do it for the money...they do it for the dream..the competition, and the love of the sport....or because that is all they know. Sorry but the money math for doing PEDs is just not there.... I am sure there are few knucklehead bros in socal doing it...and I am sure that they are used to speed up injury recovery...but they are not going to improve speed on the track the way people think...
Lot of good points!
motogrady
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1/10/2014 6:36am Edited Date/Time 1/10/2014 6:39am
How can you take a claim on cheating by a rider seriously, when the sport is currently founded
on a cheater rule?

No, there is no cheating that ,I, you, or anyone here knows of.

But, there is an overabundance of fanboys that drool over the prospect of somebody, anybody, getting accused of it.

Now, as far as being falsely accused and punished for it, Reed is a good example.
Cygnus
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1/10/2014 7:30am
Haven't you heard, the bikes are too good. No one can ride one to its full potential Anymore. True story.
jmx411
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1/10/2014 7:35am
If the guys aren't using HGH with no testing in place right now they are stupid
P
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1/10/2014 7:36am
500guy wrote:
Think about it, lots at stake here and not one Team or top rider bending the rules ? Why is it nobody gets caught cheating...
Think about it, lots at stake here and not one Team or top rider bending the rules ?

Why is it nobody gets caught cheating ? Are we supposed to think this is the only Sport in the World without Cheaters?
They do get caught, but they threaten to pull out of the series if they don't get their points back and guess what, they get their points back.


P

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