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Buffalo, NY
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whammy
7/1/2017 7:38pm
7/1/2017 7:38pm
Edited Date/Time
7/3/2017 3:39pm
Serious question. Post-aluminum frame Grass roots level MX probably peaked in the mid to late 2000's. Are we starting to see riders with less skill than years prior?
Seems like we're watching a bunch of guys race that defaulted into being top of the class(with the top of the field retiring). Even the wonder kids moving up in the 250's are not all that competitive outdoors(IE: AC, Forkner ) .The days of rookies coming out and cleaning the class seem like they are long gone(like RC and Stewart did).
I don't see anyone out there having anything for a prime RC or Stewart. Racing is racing... but this still kinda bothers me.
Seems like we're watching a bunch of guys race that defaulted into being top of the class(with the top of the field retiring). Even the wonder kids moving up in the 250's are not all that competitive outdoors(IE: AC, Forkner ) .The days of rookies coming out and cleaning the class seem like they are long gone(like RC and Stewart did).
I don't see anyone out there having anything for a prime RC or Stewart. Racing is racing... but this still kinda bothers me.
So now you're tasked with finding some obscure aluminum frame MX bike from the 70's so you can continue shitposting(Brownie points if its also sporting a monoshock)
The Shop
PS. Is not progressing as fast considered regressing?
The economic downfall of the working class since the late 60s made it worse. Part of what made racing great in the late 60's into the late 70s was the working class still made a wage worth working for. There was enough money in blue collar jobs for a larger majority of the population to get involved in racing. As jobs left America and wealth concentrated in the upper class since less economic opportunity for middle and lower classes pushes them out of motorsports.
To compound this Americans have lost there way in enjoying competition. Most Americans are scared sh#tless of competing and loosing. Everyone wants to be a superhero and if they can't they will just sit around on the sidelines stuffing their face and quaffing beverages watching the show. Its like they can't let go of their ego and have a good time seeing who can get around the track first. I know that this comes off as harsh but its true. Look at grass roots racing today. Its pathetic. Very few persons in the off road community are competing. Hell most won't even go out and ride a track. The fear in the average off road motorcyclists eyes when its mentioned they should come out for a day at the track is very real unless they have a background in MX or are an aspiring youth. This is why there are so many out there that treat the sport as a consumer hobby. They would rather buy a bike, spend money on a bunch of aftermarket mods and add on crap they don't need, then stand around bullshitting about who spent the most money on their bike and what they are gonna buy next. It really sad when you think about it.
I think the results below speak for themselves, (my class being the 05 group); I've always said that the 03 class, was the deepest ever. (I think RacerX did a report a long time ago, detailing that with factual information).
There have been many guys, who have simply quit or have faded off, due to a variety of reasons, that could be in the prime of there careers (age wise) at this very moment, yet choose not to compete for one reason or the other; (which like you said allows for a default). I hate to see that, because a lot of casual fans didn't have the opportunity to view top-tier talent.
Obviously the young kids haven't had time to develop yet, it just seems as though like you said, there used to be such depth. (After Stewart, it was Millsaps' class, followed by Alessi-Villopoto, Dungey, and then to mine of Tomac)
All of the aforementioned were winning frequently as soon as they came into the class, and you don't see that as often anymore. Those riders have been persistent at remaining at the top of the field, and once they've moved on, the parity begins. You don't see many riders who are currently considered "younger", beating their predecessor on a consistent basis. (Anderson, Jeremy Martin were the year after me (06), but Martin was a late bloomer; Roczen is an outlier, as I think he's born in 94)
Visually, the talent of today's younger amateur classes looks fast (Much flashier IMO). So it appears the speed is there, but I just think it speaks volumes to how long those guys can stay at the top of the game.
And I can't speak for some of the older guys in the thread, as I never got to see the talent of the 80's, early 90's etc. (I know many are biased on their age divisions, and rightfully so)
I too agree that RC and Stewart to me seem like they're on a level of hierarchy that can hardly be touched.
http://llvault.racerxonline.com/2003/85-12-13-stock
(Osborne 3rd, Dungey 9th, Hahn 12th, Canard 16th, Darryn Durham 20th, Vince Friese 37th)
http://llvault.racerxonline.com/2005/85-12-13-stock
(Barcia 1st, Tomac 7th, Baggett 10th, Wilson 12th, M. Stewart 18th)
Take a look at the top of the 250 class, that's an old man class now. Everyone has been giving shit to Davalos for years but the Martin Brothers and Zach are almost 30.
This is from.
Soccer
Australian Football
Rugby
Tennis
Motocross.
World Rally Champion Sebastian Loeb was once asked 'what is it like to be the best rally driver in the world' to which he replied, ' i am just the best driver here , the best driver in the world might be driving a milk truck in Marseilles' .. it puts it in perspective .
There are less riders now than there were 5 years ago , and 5 years before that , etc , which leads me back to the 80's when the sport in the US was at its peak, and factory teams were 4 rider affairs, and any of them could and did win. because there were so many riders supporting it from the bottom up.
Now you have a guy like Henry Miller jumping on a 450 at RedBud running easily in the top 10 in moto 1 , and bagging 15th overall, and Wey coming off the couch and doing the same and bagging a point.
This tells me that the talent pool in 450 is ankle deep at best , based on lap times, and rider spread, you have 4 guys who can win , 10 who will fill the next 10 places, and then 25 also rans who are paying their own way , and another 40 guys slower than them.. being 30 secs a lap off in a 2.00 lap isnt a talent pool , its grid filling.
EMX over here has guys like Weltin and Charbonneau not making the cut and going to the LCQ , in qualifying, and still having race winning speed,
And dont forget , Dungey and Roczen would be gone off the front of these boys.
Pit Row
I don't really care if the field is 40 riders deep. I want racing up front.
The mid to late 80's were pretty good with ward, johnson, lechien, bailey, glover, barnett, omara, stanton, all having a shot.
Then mc and his domination of sx, and rc 24-0 x 2 along with js. Yawn.
Now you don't really know who is going to win in either class on any given day.
the same thing happened to aerial combat, where WWII dogfights were unbelievable compared with modern jet fighters.
fourstrokes are here to stay I guess, but we shot ourselves in the foot with where technology has evolved (while the more interesting design evolution of the bikes has slowed to molasses).
I could name off 15-20 guys off the top of my head that either stopped racing or simply just quit due to financial reasons that had a ton of talent and would be racing pro today.
Today it's all about how much money you got and how much it cost to buy the ride. Kids with rich parents simply don't work as hard as the riders that came from the blue collar families like say Villopoto or Dungey.
In the pros privateers were simply happy to make the fast 40, now you've got privateers getting close to the top 10. I'm not taking anything away from these guys because they are rolling, but now you've got guys going to Canada or racing somewhere else or simply setting out.
The majority of the factory riders today are the older age group. It will be interesting to see how it goes once they retire. Don't get me wrong there's talent behind them, but not as much.
250 class is full of guys that would be out of a ride if they ran the MXGP rules of under 23, which is why the 450 class is a shadow of its former self, no Alessi, no Reed , no Brayton, no Millsaps, Mookie sitting home bleating nobody will pay him to ride.
Every national series in the world is a shadow of what it was back in 2010, or 2000, or 1990.. if you dont know enough to know that then you are either 22 , or simply werent paying attention
On the local level, it is easy to see that disappearance of riding areas and the crazy cost of bikes has led to this. Who is going to invest $12,000 in bike and gear to check the sport out? More likely they will spend a couple thousand more and get a streetbike they can ride from their front door.
I sold bikes for five years and every day I heard "I would love to get a dirt bike but there is nowhere to ride."
Competition only gets better, not the contrary, in every sport... Plus let's be fair, RC is arguably the GOAT, and JS one of the most incredible and innovative riders ever, having both as a meter of comparison is tough for anyone...
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