Is KTM in Europe doomed???

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3/18/2018 7:25 PM

Banzai551 wrote:

ALPMAN99. That's awesome!!!. Lol. Heres all I'm saying...you'd never see this split in the USA. You'd never see Dungey in one ...more

When Ryan and Marvin were racing 450s together, they had sepreate rigs.

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3/18/2018 8:04 PM

Banzai551 wrote:

ALPMAN99. That's awesome!!!. Lol. Heres all I'm saying...you'd never see this split in the USA. You'd never see Dungey in one ...more

I believe Herlings lives by the rule "If it ain't broken don't fix it".

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3/18/2018 8:20 PM
Edited Date/Time: 3/18/2018 8:30 PM

Sorry, but I have to say that this thread is quite funny to me.

Let's bring some logics into all this.

Each approved team in the MXGP can host up to 3 riders.


The KTM Factory team is split into two divisions/awnings:

1) KTM Factory DeCarli team
Managed by Claudio DeCarli - The team is based in Italy.

Riders:
Cairoli (MXGP)
Prado (MX2)

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2) KTM („In-house“) Factory team
Managed by Dirk Gruebel - The team is based out of Austria.

Riders:
Herlings (MXGP)
Coldenhoff (MXGP)
Jonass (MX2)


Both teams operate as „Red Bull KTM Factory Racing“ - meaning most of the funds come from KTM and Red Bull.

The teams are basically on the same bikes. (Most of the R&D comes from Austria, although DeCarli has also somewhat of his own R&D programe - but informations are shared vice-versa).

The only real changes between the two "teams" are the staff structures. And there are also some visible changes to the teams in form of personal/gear sponsors. For instance DeCarli's team rocks Airoh/Answer/Sidi for their gear, and the "other team" is on Airoh/Alpinestars.

In the past (2010-2016) the DeCarli team was considered as the only KTM Factory 450 team, but things changed in 2017 when Herlings moved to the MXGP Class and didn’t want to change his well known environment and people around him.

KTM started to use the two teams wisely for mental reasons - by having a relaxed atmosphere in the rigs and keeping title contenders separated (Herlings/Cairoli in MXGP and Prado/Jonass in MX2).

I can tell you for sure that there is no hate between the two teams. First of all they operate under the funding of the same manufacturer, with the the same goal. And like I said, informations regarding the bikes are shared vice-versa. The DeCarli team didn't even have a MX2 rider until this year with Prado - do you believe that Prado would have a equally good set-up like Jonass, without a good cooperation between the "teams"?

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3/18/2018 8:43 PM
Edited Date/Time: 3/18/2018 8:55 PM

Banzai551 wrote:

ALPMAN99. That's awesome!!!. Lol. Heres all I'm saying...you'd never see this split in the USA. You'd never see Dungey in one ...more

A few years back, when Windham was on Team FC, riding a Factory Honda, paid by Honda, and Ricky Carmichael was on Team Honda, it was pretty similar. Except Windham probably wasn't quite as close to RC every single weekend as Herlings and Cairoli are right now.

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3/18/2018 10:23 PM

Vince_192 wrote:

Sorry, but I have to say that this thread is quite funny to me.

Let's bring some logics into all this.

Each approved team ...more

Vince_192....yes, your 100% accurate. Very well articulated response. I love watching Jeffery ride n been following him since his Suzuki Rm85 days.i truly believe, besides his Dad Peter's help...he's the most gifted and naturally talented rider I've ever seen. Like a Ron Lechion that has drive n trains like RC. It's been noted KTM Europe was official 250 factory team n as of 2017 Claudio's team was official 450 factory team. Jeffery pitted out of 250 team due to competing with Antonio. But as of this year...since Prado-Jonass hatred n Jeffery taking title last year all the way to a Swedish DNF(broken chain) n pretty much stuffing AC ...Barcia style at Lommel. That there's no love lost between them. From what I've noticed, watching on TV n reading. The 2 teams do not seem to like each other. I've never seen Joel Smets on the line giving pointers to Antonio. Just can't imagine, with riders that"competive"...sticking around. When your biggest competition each week is your own teammate, egos are gonna get bruised.

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3/18/2018 11:19 PM

ruy wrote:

I do not know what Coldenhoff does in all this, a rider who does not win anything, And it's not a promise, it's been there for ...more

They didn't hire Coldenhoff to get them titles. They just need a good second rider who can get solid results every weekend and sometimes podium. That's exactly what Coldenhoff does.

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3/18/2018 11:39 PM

Doomed .def not at the moment. But I really don't think they are doing as well as the results and bike sales show . They have spent an absolute fortune in the last 20 years to get to the top . The paid for all the best riders when the bikes were nt 're best . Then spent a fortune on R and D to make the best bike . I really think after all this they have nt even broke even yet . No matter what the numbers say for bike sales . They probably went more aggressive money wise than any other brand in motorbikes .cars or any motorsport ever . It seem like the massive risk payed off big time . But dam the amount of money they spent will take a hell of a lot of sales to get back a profit .

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3/18/2018 11:47 PM

So dominating two classes is what doomed looks like? ermm My version looks much different.

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3/18/2018 11:51 PM
Edited Date/Time: 3/18/2018 11:53 PM

At the end of the day no matter what... riders are going to be on a team with other people...results and equipment at the end of the day are most important to rider and funders. But i get what you mean though

Its a sport where there is only 1 winner of a race.It just so happens we need multiple riders per team fighting for it, what brand they land on for that point in their career is inevitable.

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3/19/2018 12:05 AM

JB 19 wrote:

So dominating two classes is what doomed looks like? ermm My version looks much different.

Suzuki have won more races and championships in the last 10 year in the US than any brand . Plus won 3 championships with 3 different rider s , on nearly the same bike . But it did nt matter . It's bike sales V investment that matters . Suzuki very low investment. Very successvile in results .sold very little bikes ,they are nt doing that well. Then take KTM , huge huge huge investment in the last 10 years . Very successvile in the last 10 years . Huge bike sales at the moment . But dam they have easily spent 10 times what Suzuki have in the last 10 years . Dominating classes does nt show everything . The real question is money spent V bike sales .

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3/19/2018 1:26 AM

No problem at all for KTM. The only one i see having a problem is Coldenhoff since i don't see KTM running 4 factory bikes in MXGP and 3 have been signed for 2019 allready.
The only issue i see for KTM is they need to sign the next Prado/Jonass, and they missed out on Geerts and Lawrence.

2018:
MXGP:
* Herlings - title contender
* Cairoli - title contender
* Coldenhoff - top 10 guy

MX2:
* Jonass - title contender
* Prado - title contender

2019:
MXGP:
* Herlings - title contender
* Cairoli - title contender
* Jonass - learning year

MX2:
* Prado - title contender
* ? - young talent learning year

2020:
MXGP:
* Herlings - title contender
* Cairoli - top 3 guy (33 years old)
* Jonass - hopefully top 3 guy

MX2:
* Prado - defend title, title contender or USA
* ? - hopefully top 3 guy

I would think that in KTM's best case scenario in 2021 Herlings defends his 2020 title, Jonass is a title conteder, Cairoli retires, Prado moves to MXGP or USA as 2020 MX2 champion, and they have 2 kids lined up in MX2 to win the title (Hofer?)


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3/19/2018 1:58 AM

Hofer is really impressive. Reminds me of Jonass when he was in EMX125, so he appears to be their next guy in line after Prado - all being well.

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3/19/2018 2:05 AM

ruy wrote:

I do not know what Coldenhoff does in all this, a rider who does not win anything, And it's not a promise, it's been there for ...more

wideopen198 wrote:

They didn't hire Coldenhoff to get them titles. They just need a good second rider who can get solid results every weekend and ...more

Don't fok with the hoff !!

A better question would be "Why the fok is Bogers on a HRC bike" Maybe it's cheaper to buy in by honda then going with a full HSF team racing the GP's. So gasjer need to be gone over 2 years then herlings can sign by Honda. Jonas can have the gp's with ktm and prado in the mx2 or Gasjer and Herlings together that would be something lol

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3/19/2018 2:48 AM

Based on HRC's weak effort in MX2 the past couple of years it's clear that they don't have a big budget. Bogers brings it with HSF. Just like Lieber brings budget to Kawasaki.

I don't really fault them if you don't have the money to sign a toptalent for #2.
Tixier and Strijbos were factoryriders last year. I rather have guys like Bogers and Lieber who jointly probably bring in a million in sponsorship and might have upside.

As for Coldenhoff: I am a big fan, but he needs to finish top 5 in points this year if he wants a good shot at another factory ride. If he doesnt then i can only see him getting a factory ride because he get''s along pretty well with your #1 rider.

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3/19/2018 6:53 AM
Edited Date/Time: 3/19/2018 6:57 AM

Drtbykr wrote:

The only thing that would doom them is if Redbull is outlawed.

I can’t believe they are in MotoGP$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. That would ...more

KTM have a 5 year budget of €250 million for their motogp plan. And they're a year into it now. And they're expanding by another 2 works bikes next year in motogp. That's a lot of money to sink into it.

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3/19/2018 7:42 AM

Competition drives progression.

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3/19/2018 7:55 AM

Grenader26 wrote:

You made me spill my machiatto!

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3/19/2018 9:27 AM

Vince_192 wrote:

Sorry, but I have to say that this thread is quite funny to me.

Let's bring some logics into all this.

Each approved team ...more

Perfect explanation. Teams are OK with each other, but riders are not. Prado vs Jonass. Cairoli vs Herlings. And because of the fact that Di Carli only speaks a bit of English, Glenn Coldenhoff switched to Herlings team. Because that works a bit easier.

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3/19/2018 12:24 PM

roninho wrote:

No problem at all for KTM. The only one i see having a problem is Coldenhoff since i don't see KTM running 4 factory bikes in ...more

Conrad Mewse is a possibility. Looked very strong in Valkenswaard, just needs to prove himself consistently. He has worked with red bull ktm on 125s and husqvarna last year. They wouldn’t sign Lawrence since he was set on USA for 2019 anyway. They already have a young talent in the Rockstar Husqvarna squad. However, they also have Gianluca Facchetti in EMX 250 who is very good friends with Cairoli and is likely to go straight to the front. Whatever they do, they will sign a rising star because they always seem to scout the best riders from the youth ranks (apart from missing Geerts).

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3/19/2018 1:55 PM

I hate that brand so much...

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3/19/2018 2:06 PM

Drtbykr wrote:

The only thing that would doom them is if Redbull is outlawed.

I can’t believe they are in MotoGP$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. That would ...more

mx_phreek wrote:

KTM have a 5 year budget of 250 million for their motogp plan. And they're a year into it now. And they're expanding by ...more

Wow, that’s about $10,000,000,000,000 Canadian. Actually it converts to approx. $350,000,000US, $460m Can.

No wonder those little cans cost $5. I doubt they are making that back in streetbike sales.

Not sure if it is a good business plan, or “hey, instead of burning the money, let’s try MotoGP”.

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3/19/2018 3:15 PM

roninho wrote:

No problem at all for KTM. The only one i see having a problem is Coldenhoff since i don't see KTM running 4 factory bikes in ...more

Hofer seems to be a lock for that MX2 spot the way he’s going. Him being from Austria I would imagine Red Bull pushing for that pretty hard.

Facchetti as mentioned has a strong relationship with Cairoli and De Carli which could help him if he performs in EMX250 this year. Haarup could change from Husky to KTM, he was a KTM rider when he signed his factory contract back in his 85 days. I might have a bit biased look at it, but the way Miro Sihvonen was riding last year before getting injured sure looked like a possibility to fill a factory spot in the future, but he needs to redeem himself this year for that to happen.

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3/20/2018 3:02 AM
Edited Date/Time: 3/20/2018 4:59 AM

The only thing that could 'doom' KTMs efforts is if they somehow lost the backing of Red Bull.

They have the ultimate 'Sugar Daddy' in the form of Red Bull.

A few years ago I read an interview with Pit Beirer, and he said Red Bull matched them dollar for dollar with sponsorship, through their Entire Racing efforts. I'd not be surprised if that were BS - in that Red Bull, nowadays, provide much, Much more than that 50: 50 split. Especially with their MotoGP, Moto2, and Moto3 efforts. What Red Bull spends on all of KTMs racing, would be peanuts compared to their F1, and the many, many other "marketing" schemes they are involved in.

I am surprised that the KTHusky efforts have another Swill beverage as their sponsor. They seem to be 'horse whisperers' of the Swill companies. Red Bull are undoubtedly aware of going too far with their branding within a relatively small sport, and don't really give a stuff about a supposed competitor sponsoring another arm of what is, effectively, the same company.

The DeCarli Team has been Cairoli's 'home' for over 15 years, and it's gained KTM 6 World Championships ( and 3 for Yamaha). KTMs main 250 team, now housing MXGP riders as well, has given them how many World Championships? Over 10, I think? It gives them a useful separation of rivals, in both classes, yet it's an absolute juggernaut of a Factory Team set up when the two teams are out there. .

Instead of thinking the worst, imagining blood feuds, just watch the epic racing we will continue to see this year, and the years to come.

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3/20/2018 3:34 AM

brooklynevans wrote:

Conrad Mewse is a possibility. Looked very strong in Valkenswaard, just needs to prove himself consistently. He has worked ...more

Not sure about that one. Mewse was let go by the Husqvarna factory team after last year. That to me signals that KTM/Huqvarna does not see him as a future factory rider unless he significantly improves.

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3/20/2018 3:47 AM

Hofer is the wet dream of any manufacturer. An Austrian rider on an Austrian bike with an Austrian brand as main sponsor. Still a long way to go ofcourse, but I guess the 125-title is his.

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