Is Factory Team Honda suffering from the Curse of the GOAT....Curse of the Bambino.

RPM68
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7/27/2016 11:20pm
MotoGuido wrote:
Couldn't have said it better. The more I learn about Honda the more I want nothing to do with them. Them failing seems just. Bummer for...
Couldn't have said it better.

The more I learn about Honda the more I want nothing to do with them.

Them failing seems just. Bummer for the riders though.
can you please define "Failing." TC has brought race wins, as well as Seely. what other 2nd rider has won races? Tickle, No, Baggett no, Peick, no, Hahn, no, Musquin, CLOSE! Pourcel, no, Reed, No....




They arent paying TC, nor CS the same as what RD, or RV (still), is worth...Roczen is gettin, what, $12 mil for 5 years right? Y'all calm the hell down and drink some whiskey, damn...

With that said, TC on a KTM should be sick, not as sick as JS7 on a 350, but sick....
kiwifan
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7/27/2016 11:36pm
MotoGuido wrote:
Couldn't have said it better. The more I learn about Honda the more I want nothing to do with them. Them failing seems just. Bummer for...
Couldn't have said it better.

The more I learn about Honda the more I want nothing to do with them.

Them failing seems just. Bummer for the riders though.
What is so different about Honda from other Jap brands? They all want to do is to make dollars, they make them selling 4 strokes like KTM/Husky does....get over it

They sure as hell dont care what you think, they run a business...they would produce 2 strokes if money and pressure from other manufacturers warrants it, and if they produced them the sales in KTM/Husky would dive...is that really what you want? Didnt think so.
S.Loyer
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7/28/2016 12:02am
No, I'd say they are suffering from a lack of RV and Ryan Dungey on their teams......
kiwifan
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7/28/2016 12:38am
S.Loyer wrote:
No, I'd say they are suffering from a lack of RV and Ryan Dungey on their teams......
Exactly, and now they have a great signing in Roczen, with Seely getting faster as well...go bring on 2017 and see the haters liking that

The Shop

Travis_Hudson
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7/28/2016 1:09am
Markout wrote:
Maybe it's RC?... Kawasaki kicked him to the curb before Honda. I bet the guys that made those decisions were kicked to the curb shortly after...
Wrong.......RC left Kawasaki, because he felt there equipment was at a disadvantage to Honda.
7/28/2016 1:20am
YZ125H1 wrote:
Silly Honda thinking a 500cc 4 stroke could compete with 2 strokes. May be that's where their motto "The power of dreams" came from. That bike...
Silly Honda thinking a 500cc 4 stroke could compete with 2 strokes. May be that's where their motto "The power of dreams" came from. That bike sure cost them a lot of wasted time and money. I think Japanese are still naive about how much of a threat KTM really is in the market.
Bearuno wrote:
NR500 , boys. Dubbed as the "Never Ready", by many journalists at the time. Honda got the 4t competitiveness issue in Premier Class Road Racing, 'sorted'...
NR500 , boys. Dubbed as the "Never Ready", by many journalists at the time.

Honda got the 4t competitiveness issue in Premier Class Road Racing, 'sorted', through doubling the capacity of the 4Ts, decades later............

Yes, Soichiro and Co, 4ts are just so much better, especially when you can have double, or near double the capacity against those 'orrible', dity 2 strokes.......

For those interested, a recent Classic Racer article on the NR500 project, with commentary by Mick Grant, is a good read. Honda Did get a lot of info from the failed project, that has gone into subsequent 4ts. The same Classic Racer issue has an Alan Cathcart NSR500 V4 (2T) test reprint, and a Freddie Spencer interview on it, and his 85 double class World Championships. Ironically, I think Freddie was the only one of two (the other being a victory in a 200Km Endurance race at Suzuka - no not the 8 hour race) riders to give Honda a victory with the NR500 - was it at Laguna Seca in the then yearly 'demo' race there?.Too long ago for me to recall accurately. Classic Racer is a great magazine, by the way, as are most of the Pommie ones..
kiwifan wrote:
Yes they should of never tried to produce an amazing oval pistoned engine that was way ahead of its time, silly Honda
Didn't that thing have a really broad power curve,
18,000 to 21,000?
7/28/2016 1:25am
S.Loyer wrote:
No, I'd say they are suffering from a lack of RV and Ryan Dungey on their teams......
kiwifan wrote:
Exactly, and now they have a great signing in Roczen, with Seely getting faster as well...go bring on 2017 and see the haters liking that
And a big number 1 on the front of the bike.
kiwifan
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7/28/2016 1:27am
Didn't that thing have a really broad power curve,
18,000 to 21,000?
I dont know but it was impressive engineering
RMZ#
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7/28/2016 3:08am
The bottom line is if you don't have the best rider your bike can't win.



davistld01
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7/28/2016 7:51am Edited Date/Time 7/28/2016 7:51am
Honda has historically made some gawdawfully ignorant moves when it comes to taking care of it's team riders and showing them respect. The deal with RC being just one of them. Yeah, business is business, and it's all about the Benjamins...I get that, but Honda seems to be the most empty-hearted and steely-cold corporate team of them all. Riders seem to be nothing more to them but a commodity. Frankly, although I've long been a Honda fan and have bought many of their bikes (I own one currently) I can't see how they held on to Canard as long as they have, Trey being the "personality" that he is...and I have to wonder if the lure of big money will bite Ken Roczen in the butt before he ever realizes another championship. I guess we'll wait and see.

My prediction is...Ken will have more issues with Honda than he EVER has had at KTM or RCH/Suzuki, and it won't all be about the bike.
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mxb2
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7/28/2016 8:10am
Why do all the vital guys that hate honda so much,own hondas. If you are that mad,sell them buy another brand. Plenty of other options
UpTiTe
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7/28/2016 8:14am
lostboy819 wrote:
Just to be fair, Honda also screwed McGrath,Decoster,and Kehoe to name a few.
How did they screw DeCoster again?
Ted722
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7/28/2016 8:24am
davistld01 wrote:
Honda has historically made some gawdawfully ignorant moves when it comes to taking care of it's team riders and showing them respect. The deal with RC...
Honda has historically made some gawdawfully ignorant moves when it comes to taking care of it's team riders and showing them respect. The deal with RC being just one of them. Yeah, business is business, and it's all about the Benjamins...I get that, but Honda seems to be the most empty-hearted and steely-cold corporate team of them all. Riders seem to be nothing more to them but a commodity. Frankly, although I've long been a Honda fan and have bought many of their bikes (I own one currently) I can't see how they held on to Canard as long as they have, Trey being the "personality" that he is...and I have to wonder if the lure of big money will bite Ken Roczen in the butt before he ever realizes another championship. I guess we'll wait and see.

My prediction is...Ken will have more issues with Honda than he EVER has had at KTM or RCH/Suzuki, and it won't all be about the bike.
Should everyone have a lifetime contract?

The only issues I see Roczen having with Honda is clearing more space for the trophies and the dough that comes with them.
UpTiTe
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7/28/2016 8:34am
HRC was developed by Sochiro Honda to help Honda win at all cost, they did. Sochiro was a racer at heart and wanted to win. Sochiro died in in 93 and Dave Arnold who pretty much built Honda into the power house it was quit because the bean counters took over and started negotiating contracts and setting budgets.

Their new thinking ran off McGrath, but got lucky with RC, they got him affordable with heavy incentives. They continued to hire affordable riders and continued to get affordable results.

They recently have become more involved in other motors ports and HRC has resurged and now American Honda is benefiting from it with bigger budgets and better equipment.
7/28/2016 9:30am
The whole corporate mentality of selling a bike with lower HP just seems off to me. Offer a selectable map that does that but don't handicap your self right off the show room floor.

My CRF250 vs a new KTM/YZF 250 doesn't stand a chance in a straight line. I believe the 450 is down 5hp as well.
davistld01
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7/28/2016 9:38am
mxb2 wrote:
Why do all the vital guys that hate honda so much,own hondas. If you are that mad,sell them buy another brand. Plenty of other options
I don't hate Honda...just not real cool with the way (from what I can tell) they operate. I'm sure, if I looked hard enough, I'd find something to dislike about every OEM team though. Doesn't keep me from riding their bikes.
observer
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7/28/2016 10:05am
Oh so true Terry....
Learned that hard way in the airline industry.
mxb2
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7/28/2016 10:17am
mxb2 wrote:
Why do all the vital guys that hate honda so much,own hondas. If you are that mad,sell them buy another brand. Plenty of other options
davistld01 wrote:
I don't hate Honda...just not real cool with the way (from what I can tell) they operate. I'm sure, if I looked hard enough, I'd find...
I don't hate Honda...just not real cool with the way (from what I can tell) they operate. I'm sure, if I looked hard enough, I'd find something to dislike about every OEM team though. Doesn't keep me from riding their bikes.
It was a general statement, not meant for you .my bad. , I meant the angry honda haters,who still buy and own the honda products.
mjr119
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7/28/2016 10:22am
The whole corporate mentality of selling a bike with lower HP just seems off to me. Offer a selectable map that does that but don't handicap...
The whole corporate mentality of selling a bike with lower HP just seems off to me. Offer a selectable map that does that but don't handicap your self right off the show room floor.

My CRF250 vs a new KTM/YZF 250 doesn't stand a chance in a straight line. I believe the 450 is down 5hp as well.
If the only part of the track you are concerned with is the straight always, then you need to practice some corners...

Corner speed > HP
peelout
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7/28/2016 10:33am
mxb2 wrote:
Why do all the vital guys that hate honda so much,own hondas. If you are that mad,sell them buy another brand. Plenty of other options
davistld01 wrote:
I don't hate Honda...just not real cool with the way (from what I can tell) they operate. I'm sure, if I looked hard enough, I'd find...
I don't hate Honda...just not real cool with the way (from what I can tell) they operate. I'm sure, if I looked hard enough, I'd find something to dislike about every OEM team though. Doesn't keep me from riding their bikes.
mxb2 wrote:
It was a general statement, not meant for you .my bad. , I meant the angry honda haters,who still buy and own the honda products.
love to hate and hate to love... or something like that.

they build great bikes, just not a fan of their corporate actions. (ie, the two stroke deal, but that goes for Kawi and Suzi too)
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mxb2
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7/28/2016 10:37am
davistld01 wrote:
I don't hate Honda...just not real cool with the way (from what I can tell) they operate. I'm sure, if I looked hard enough, I'd find...
I don't hate Honda...just not real cool with the way (from what I can tell) they operate. I'm sure, if I looked hard enough, I'd find something to dislike about every OEM team though. Doesn't keep me from riding their bikes.
mxb2 wrote:
It was a general statement, not meant for you .my bad. , I meant the angry honda haters,who still buy and own the honda products.
peelout wrote:
love to hate and hate to love... or something like that. they build great bikes, just not a fan of their corporate actions. (ie, the two...
love to hate and hate to love... or something like that.

they build great bikes, just not a fan of their corporate actions. (ie, the two stroke deal, but that goes for Kawi and Suzi too)
X2, and should be mad at yamaha also with kawy and Suzuki lol.
peelout
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7/28/2016 10:50am
mxb2 wrote:
It was a general statement, not meant for you .my bad. , I meant the angry honda haters,who still buy and own the honda products.
peelout wrote:
love to hate and hate to love... or something like that. they build great bikes, just not a fan of their corporate actions. (ie, the two...
love to hate and hate to love... or something like that.

they build great bikes, just not a fan of their corporate actions. (ie, the two stroke deal, but that goes for Kawi and Suzi too)
mxb2 wrote:
X2, and should be mad at yamaha also with kawy and Suzuki lol.
well, technically they're keeping the options going with the new X models and including the 250 smoker in both the R and X versions... so i can't quite be too upset at them Wink
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mxb2
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7/28/2016 10:52am
peelout wrote:
love to hate and hate to love... or something like that. they build great bikes, just not a fan of their corporate actions. (ie, the two...
love to hate and hate to love... or something like that.

they build great bikes, just not a fan of their corporate actions. (ie, the two stroke deal, but that goes for Kawi and Suzi too)
mxb2 wrote:
X2, and should be mad at yamaha also with kawy and Suzuki lol.
peelout wrote:
well, technically they're keeping the options going with the new X models and including the 250 smoker in both the R and X versions... so i...
well, technically they're keeping the options going with the new X models and including the 250 smoker in both the R and X versions... so i can't quite be too upset at them Wink
They started the whole 4 stroke thing, hahaaa
rpawley
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7/28/2016 11:21am
OW38B wrote:
Curse of the GOAT....Curse of the Bambino. Finished listening to the Mike Lindsey interview of Ricky Carmichael the other day and how he felt that Honda...
Curse of the GOAT....Curse of the Bambino.


Finished listening to the Mike Lindsey interview of Ricky Carmichael the other day and how he felt that Honda "kicked him to the curb".

So that got me to thinking about the Honda "big boy" team since RC4 left and their Championships in the premier class.

Davi Milsaps, Ivan Tedasco, Ben Townley (was Factory Honda for two years and did he even race for them?), et al.

Many capable riders but for some reason, not close to winning a championship. That brings me to this year, Trey Canard a very capable rider but jeez if it was not for bad luck he would have no luck at all. Cole Seely, won a SX but now out again with an injury, Eli Tomec, fast as all get out but out for the rest of the season.

So last race at High Point, they had to pick up Freddie Noran off his pick up truck tailgate to put somebody in the Honda semi. I remember a time when Honda had 8 Factory riders on the team at the same time.

I know you are going to say "but, but, Tomac was killing them the first 2 1/4 races outdoors this year until he crashed!"

All that does is 100% prove my point that their is some "black cloud" hanging over Team Honda and the Curse of the Bambino.

Maybe RC went way back in the swamps and had a Voodoo woman put the bad Mojo on Team Honda?

We are talking about the Factory Honda MX Team.

=============================================================================
The Curse of the Bambino was a superstition evolving from the failure of the Boston Red Sox baseball team to win the World Series in the 86-year period from 1918 to 2004. While some fans took the curse seriously, most used the expression in a tongue-in-cheek manner.[1] This misfortune began after the Red Sox sold star player Babe Ruth, sometimes called The Bambino, to the New York Yankees in the off-season of 1919–1920.[2] Before that point, the Red Sox had been one of the most successful professional baseball franchises, winning the first World Series and amassing five World Series titles.[3] After the sale they went without a title for decades, even while the Red Sox won four American League championships from 1946 to 1986, as the previously lackluster Yankees became one of the most successful franchises in North American professional sports.[4] The curse became a focal point of the Yankees–Red Sox rivalry over the years.
What interview? Linkage?
gnarwhip
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7/28/2016 11:30am
In my opinion Hondas biggest mistake ever was getting pissed at MC when someone got a photo of him on a Kawi jet ski at the lake. They made a huge deal of it and that's why MC left. That and the aluminum framed '97.
OW38B
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7/28/2016 11:38am Edited Date/Time 7/28/2016 11:42am
RPM68 wrote:
...this. Just imagine how many crf50's are sold in the world,for $70 over cost, they'd still prolly shit all over KTM sales... It wouldn't surprise me...
...this.

Just imagine how many crf50's are sold in the world,for $70 over cost, they'd still prolly shit all over KTM sales...

It wouldn't surprise me if Honda sold more TRX420TM's than all of KTM's inventory. It's no contest on what they sell.



How they invest their money is completely different, KTM is brilliant, they know their industry, and their limit. Same as if Michelin made a factory effort into the industry. Why would they spend millions if they already shit all over dunlop and bridgestone and pirelli. Another analogy, FLY RACING... My favorite brand in the world, the only thing I wear. Does it benefit them to give RD1 $1.2 million a year vs canard 800k? No. Fly kicks ass b/c they spend money advertising, and training their employees, to spend time with their local community, sponsor local racing events, offer contingency programs, and distribute their money elsewhere. None of it is wrong, its just different tactics. Honda, will always win, look at how Rossi got fucked last year, if y'all could only hear the stories about how a 2nd rider on factory Yamaha got fucked over so many times...vs Honda can give equal equipment to both riders. Money, distribution, profit...3 things that weren't considered before the OP typed up this bullshit.


sorry for the rant, but cmon, yall cant think its some stupid fucking curse...Hell, our President is proof that you can in fact go Black and go back....
"3 things that weren't considered before the OP typed up this bullshit."


Go back and read the first post so you will have a clue as to what this post is all about.

Factory Honda Motocross Team since RC4 left.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Curse of the Bambino was a superstition evolving from the failure of the Boston Red Sox baseball team to win the World Series in the 86-year period from 1918 to 2004. While some fans took the curse seriously, most used the expression in a tongue-in-cheek manner.[1] This misfortune began after the Red Sox sold star player Babe Ruth, sometimes called The Bambino, to the New York Yankees in the off-season of 1919–1920.[2] Before that point, the Red Sox had been one of the most successful professional baseball franchises, winning the first World Series and amassing five World Series titles.[3] After the sale they went without a title for decades, even while the Red Sox won four American League championships from 1946 to 1986, as the previously lackluster Yankees became one of the most successful franchises in North American professional sports.[4] The curse became a focal point of the Yankees–Red Sox rivalry over the years.
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scott_nz
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7/28/2016 11:53am
RPM68 wrote:
...this. Just imagine how many crf50's are sold in the world,for $70 over cost, they'd still prolly shit all over KTM sales... It wouldn't surprise me...
...this.

Just imagine how many crf50's are sold in the world,for $70 over cost, they'd still prolly shit all over KTM sales...

It wouldn't surprise me if Honda sold more TRX420TM's than all of KTM's inventory. It's no contest on what they sell.



How they invest their money is completely different, KTM is brilliant, they know their industry, and their limit. Same as if Michelin made a factory effort into the industry. Why would they spend millions if they already shit all over dunlop and bridgestone and pirelli. Another analogy, FLY RACING... My favorite brand in the world, the only thing I wear. Does it benefit them to give RD1 $1.2 million a year vs canard 800k? No. Fly kicks ass b/c they spend money advertising, and training their employees, to spend time with their local community, sponsor local racing events, offer contingency programs, and distribute their money elsewhere. None of it is wrong, its just different tactics. Honda, will always win, look at how Rossi got fucked last year, if y'all could only hear the stories about how a 2nd rider on factory Yamaha got fucked over so many times...vs Honda can give equal equipment to both riders. Money, distribution, profit...3 things that weren't considered before the OP typed up this bullshit.


sorry for the rant, but cmon, yall cant think its some stupid fucking curse...Hell, our President is proof that you can in fact go Black and go back....
Rossi is not Honda Fan, there has been many interviews when he has rubbished honda,

when he met McGarth, (MC was a Honda spokesman then) he asked how he could have gone back to a company that treated him so bad,
kiwifan
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7/28/2016 12:08pm
mxb2 wrote:
They started the whole 4 stroke thing, hahaaa
yes Yamaha did start it, look Honda makes no secret it loves to build 4 strokes....and loves to beat 2 strokes with 4 strokes. Yamaha made 2 mistakes...

1. they there getting thrashed by honda with their amazing works bikes in the early 80's to 85, so thy pushed hard for the 'Production rule'....that came into effect in 86, problem is that Honda produced an amazing 86 bikes and basically (apart from Ward) dominated again for the next 4-5 years...so that kind of backfired on them and robbed the public of ever seeing works bikes in that vein again

2. then they got dispensation from AMA/FIM/whoever to race their 400 4 strokes against the 250 two strokes and started beating them, Honda of course saw this and rubbed their hands...ah 4 strokes woo hoo and the rest is history, as all manufacturers followed them...yes Honda helped push the rules to get to 450 4 strokes and ban 2 strokes but the other manufacturers were behind it as well...now we are robbed seeing 2 strokes racing competitively

So is Honda the big bad wolf here? Not entirely no.

Some comments here about how Honda treats their riders, yes in the past they did and they lost the good riders, now HRC are back involved and definitely has changed. One comment above made me laugh, saying how bad they treat their riders then criticise them for hanging onto Canard....which way do you want it????

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