Is Barcia racing on the air shock?

BobPA
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1/17/2021 5:23pm
You’re right, backwards engine won 250s, and had 3 in the top 10 in 450s last night, beating multiple air shocks
BobPA wrote:
By that math, 7 of the top ten had their engines in the correct way. Try again chief.
“Correct” way? Also, the last thing the world needs is for this to turn into yet another bash-on-Yamaha event.
It is called trolling my bros, you missed the signs
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rjg
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1/17/2021 5:38pm
Air forks and air shock will eventually be the way if the future. It will just take a while for the momentum to change.
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1/18/2021 4:46am Edited Date/Time 1/18/2021 4:56am
Bruce372 wrote:
If they could use the progressive spring rate to get rid of the linkage and come up with a air PDS they could loose significant weight
And move the shock anywhere, thus come up with a "straight shot" injector path as intended with the reverse cylinder layout Yamaha.

These air shock guys might already be on closer to linear linkages?
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The Shop

1/18/2021 5:30am
GuyB wrote:
Justin said it’s more consistent, and doesn’t fade.

He also said his bike is close to 20 pounds lighter, but that it feels like 50. 😏
20 pounds?!!
sandtrack315
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1/18/2021 5:36am
rjg wrote:
Air forks and air shock will eventually be the way if the future. It will just take a while for the momentum to change.
Maybe. Even the riders that run air forks during supercross usually switch to spring forks for outdoors, and production bikes are made for average speed riders on outdoor tracks. But yeah, if KYB makes an air shock, I could see more riders using it in supercross.
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teamddr
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1/18/2021 6:35am
Let’s not forget springs have a natural frequency which means there is oscillation before it settles to the required state so it’s something less for the damper to control
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peltier626
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1/18/2021 6:52am
GuyB wrote:
Justin said it’s more consistent, and doesn’t fade.

He also said his bike is close to 20 pounds lighter, but that it feels like 50. 😏
20lbs lighter than the Yamaha or a stock Mc450?
soggy
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1/18/2021 6:55am
GuyB wrote:
Justin said it’s more consistent, and doesn’t fade.

He also said his bike is close to 20 pounds lighter, but that it feels like 50. 😏
peltier626 wrote:
20lbs lighter than the Yamaha or a stock Mc450?
Then the yam 20# lighter on the GG would not be legal per current weight rules which I think is like 220?
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peltier626
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1/18/2021 6:57am Edited Date/Time 1/18/2021 7:01am
Stock 2021 Yz 450f = 245lbs
Stock 2021 Mc 450 = 220lbs
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peltier626
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1/18/2021 7:00am
Is 220lbs a legal weight? Why 220? If a bone stock bike can be manufactured to be 220lbs why not reevaluate the numbers? Why wouldn't we want lighter bikes instead of the opposite trend over the last decade.
soggy
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1/18/2021 7:04am
peltier626 wrote:
Is 220lbs a legal weight? Why 220? If a bone stock bike can be manufactured to be 220lbs why not reevaluate the numbers? Why wouldn't we...
Is 220lbs a legal weight? Why 220? If a bone stock bike can be manufactured to be 220lbs why not reevaluate the numbers? Why wouldn't we want lighter bikes instead of the opposite trend over the last decade.
Some is probably to keep privateers competitive. Don’t forget not everything the race teams do is to cut weight either. Somethings need to be made heavier/stronger. Billet the throttle tube housings, guards, beefed up frames, larger gas tanks(in mx) probably some shit I’m forgetting, I’m sure some wheel sets are heavier then stock for some teams
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Johnny Ringo
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1/18/2021 7:18am
peltier626 wrote:
Is 220lbs a legal weight? Why 220? If a bone stock bike can be manufactured to be 220lbs why not reevaluate the numbers? Why wouldn't we...
Is 220lbs a legal weight? Why 220? If a bone stock bike can be manufactured to be 220lbs why not reevaluate the numbers? Why wouldn't we want lighter bikes instead of the opposite trend over the last decade.
Safety. You make things too light and frames start snapping and wheels blow out
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Jeff_Brines
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1/18/2021 8:22am Edited Date/Time 1/20/2021 7:06am
I'll weigh in with my $0.02.

First, nobody outside of WP has real insight as to what is happening inside that shock. Still, we can take some guesses (obviously).

It is very likely the spring system is very (very) similar to what high end mountain bikes use. To those saying 'the load is much higher therefore its nothing like a mtb spring' you are likely wrong. That'd be like saying mountain bike coil springs are different from dirt bike's coilover spring or a trophy truck is heavier than a dirt bike thus it uses way different spring technology than the lighter two wheeled machines (not true). Simply, this is not a good logical conclusion. Proof? The AER line of forks use an air spring that is incredibly similar to a mountain bike spring from a few years back. The big difference is WP hasn't quiet figured out the negative chamber to the extent mountain bike engineers have (its really the secret sauce).

My guess is this spring has a positive chamber and a negative chamber. They self equalize. The tuner has control over the volume of both chambers. This is why its such an advantage. It lets the tuner "tune" the curve of the spring in a way you really can't do with a coil shock. I'd bet the weight loss is about 1 pound (maybe 2) so fairly minimal there.

In theory you could get a shock that has less overall harshness, more open damping on the high speed compression circuit (leading to less fade). You could do this simply because you are relying on the spring's anti-bottom out properties to do some of the work when it comes to bottom out resistance.

I know a lot of coil sprung purists are really struggling accepting this one (that was a joke). For a lot of reasons, this will likely be the future. Biggest reason why - you can change the forces curve on the spring side with a few volume spacers and a shock pump. Not requiring a customer to buy a new spring will yield more people happier with their suspension being a large number never change a damn thing when it comes to setup. (remember, vitalmx users are not the average rider).

My background: 2 decades of mtb racing; product testing for both Fox and RS over a decade; former product tester at vitalmtb.

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1/18/2021 8:32am Edited Date/Time 1/18/2021 8:49am
Boomslang wrote:
WP Airshock. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/01/18/473426/s1200_ktmairshock.jpg[/img]
WP Airshock.


Really interesting and I'm looking forward to a production version. Should be about a 3 pounds weight savings over a coil spring shock.

I'm curious how sag would be adjusted with that shock, though. It looks like the air chamber is that larger tank on the bottom of the shock. Does that whole thing slide up over the top of the shock, where normally the threads for a coil spring preload adjuster would be? Or perhaps sag is set with air pressure.
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MyBobbym
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1/18/2021 9:04am
Leeham wrote:
What could the advantages be of an air shock?
UpTiTe wrote:
Weight and you can run it stiffer without the harsh feeling at the bottom of the stroke.
They should run hydrogen gas shock, bet that sucker would just explode off the line. Hehehe.
OG725
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1/18/2021 9:05am
Leeham wrote:
What could the advantages be of an air shock?
UpTiTe wrote:
Weight and you can run it stiffer without the harsh feeling at the bottom of the stroke.
MyBobbym wrote:
They should run hydrogen gas shock, bet that sucker would just explode off the line. Hehehe.
You don't have a leg to stand on.
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peltier626
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1/18/2021 10:37am
peltier626 wrote:
Is 220lbs a legal weight? Why 220? If a bone stock bike can be manufactured to be 220lbs why not reevaluate the numbers? Why wouldn't we...
Is 220lbs a legal weight? Why 220? If a bone stock bike can be manufactured to be 220lbs why not reevaluate the numbers? Why wouldn't we want lighter bikes instead of the opposite trend over the last decade.
Safety. You make things too light and frames start snapping and wheels blow out
I understand the safety concerns and aware of the KTM frame malfunctions. If 220lb is the set weight by the sanctioning body and there are ways to safely decrease the weights below the 220lb limit, shouldn't that number be a negotiable weight. If a said company can produce production units that are sold to the public at 220lbs, surly they can bolt up some unobtanium and bring the numbers down further. A lighter bike safely manufactured would be a step in the right direction (cost considered of course).
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1/18/2021 10:47am Edited Date/Time 1/18/2021 11:18am
peltier626 wrote:
Is 220lbs a legal weight? Why 220? If a bone stock bike can be manufactured to be 220lbs why not reevaluate the numbers? Why wouldn't we...
Is 220lbs a legal weight? Why 220? If a bone stock bike can be manufactured to be 220lbs why not reevaluate the numbers? Why wouldn't we want lighter bikes instead of the opposite trend over the last decade.
Safety. You make things too light and frames start snapping and wheels blow out
It is 220 lbs for the same reason it is 450cc. They set an arbitrary number based vaguely on the capabilities of four stroke trail bikes in the 90s and aren't re-evaluating it because the OEMs would rather not.
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aees
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1/18/2021 10:58am
Leeham wrote:
What could the advantages be of an air shock?
UpTiTe wrote:
Weight and you can run it stiffer without the harsh feeling at the bottom of the stroke.
A big thing is remaining bike balance during a race.

A spring based shock will be softer (sit lower) and fade, at the same time the fork gets stiffer through air coming in. This means you have a bike that is more difficult to turn with (and/or unbalanced) at the later part of the race. Air shock will most likely be stiffer due to air volume increasing with heat during race which will take out a potential stiffer front end (from air).

My guess it is a pretty big difference all in all.
PTshox
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1/18/2021 11:36am
I'll weigh in with my $0.02. First, nobody outside of WP has real insight as to what is happening inside that shock. Still, we can take...
I'll weigh in with my $0.02.

First, nobody outside of WP has real insight as to what is happening inside that shock. Still, we can take some guesses (obviously).

It is very likely the spring system is very (very) similar to what high end mountain bikes use. To those saying 'the load is much higher therefore its nothing like a mtb spring' you are likely wrong. That'd be like saying mountain bike coil springs are different from dirt bike's coilover spring or a trophy truck is heavier than a dirt bike thus it uses way different spring technology than the lighter two wheeled machines (not true). Simply, this is not a good logical conclusion. Proof? The AER line of forks use an air spring that is incredibly similar to a mountain bike spring from a few years back. The big difference is WP hasn't quiet figured out the negative chamber to the extent mountain bike engineers have (its really the secret sauce).

My guess is this spring has a positive chamber and a negative chamber. They self equalize. The tuner has control over the volume of both chambers. This is why its such an advantage. It lets the tuner "tune" the curve of the spring in a way you really can't do with a coil shock. I'd bet the weight loss is about 1 pound (maybe 2) so fairly minimal there.

In theory you could get a shock that has less overall harshness, more open damping on the high speed compression circuit (leading to less fade). You could do this simply because you are relying on the spring's anti-bottom out properties to do some of the work when it comes to bottom out resistance.

I know a lot of coil sprung purists are really struggling accepting this one (that was a joke). For a lot of reasons, this will likely be the future. Biggest reason why - you can change the forces curve on the spring side with a few volume spacers and a shock pump. Not requiring a customer to buy a new spring will yield more people happier with their suspension being a large number never change a damn thing when it comes to setup. (remember, vitalmx users are not the average rider).

My background: 2 decades of mtb racing; product testing for both Fox and RS over a decade; former product tester at vitalmtb.

I've always thought if they could get the motorcycle suspension to work as well as the newer mtn bike suspension we'd have something special!
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wrc777
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1/18/2021 3:07pm
peltier626 wrote:
Is 220lbs a legal weight? Why 220? If a bone stock bike can be manufactured to be 220lbs why not reevaluate the numbers? Why wouldn't we...
Is 220lbs a legal weight? Why 220? If a bone stock bike can be manufactured to be 220lbs why not reevaluate the numbers? Why wouldn't we want lighter bikes instead of the opposite trend over the last decade.
Safety. You make things too light and frames start snapping and wheels blow out
It is 220 lbs for the same reason it is 450cc. They set an arbitrary number based vaguely on the capabilities of four stroke trail bikes...
It is 220 lbs for the same reason it is 450cc. They set an arbitrary number based vaguely on the capabilities of four stroke trail bikes in the 90s and aren't re-evaluating it because the OEMs would rather not.
220 vs 245 is wet vs dry weight too so more like 230 vs 245. Still a big weight difference but not quite so much. The ktm 250 is only a couple lbs lighter than the Yamaha after you add a spring fork to the ktm.
bigk218
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1/19/2021 10:08am
Watching him and Ken seat bouncing that quad after the finish was a thing of beauty l.
mx317
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1/19/2021 1:15pm
peltier626 wrote:
Stock 2021 Yz 450f = 245lbs
Stock 2021 Mc 450 = 220lbs
Way off on the weights
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peltier626
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1/19/2021 1:28pm
peltier626 wrote:
Stock 2021 Yz 450f = 245lbs
Stock 2021 Mc 450 = 220lbs
mx317 wrote:
Way off on the weights
It's directly from the Yamaha and KTM websites. Not sure what the actual weights are but that's not my point of the conversation. I'm just glad to see a manufacture lower the weight rather than continue the trend of weight increase. Peace out, enjoy the races tonight.
mx317
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1/19/2021 1:35pm
peltier626 wrote:
Stock 2021 Yz 450f = 245lbs
Stock 2021 Mc 450 = 220lbs
mx317 wrote:
Way off on the weights
peltier626 wrote:
It's directly from the Yamaha and KTM websites. Not sure what the actual weights are but that's not my point of the conversation. I'm just glad...
It's directly from the Yamaha and KTM websites. Not sure what the actual weights are but that's not my point of the conversation. I'm just glad to see a manufacture lower the weight rather than continue the trend of weight increase. Peace out, enjoy the races tonight.
One is with a full tank of gas and one is dry. MXA has them at 238 on the YZ450 and 223 on the KTM (which should be the same or close to the Gas Gas) with no gas. Cycle News has them with full gastanks at 246 on the YZ and 234 on the KTM. Yes, looking forward to the race!
bigk218
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2/18/2021 5:02pm
Perfect. thanks production rule. So Where can I buy one?
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nickm
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2/18/2021 7:34pm
On minimum weights, they are set to avoid excessive costs of machines, a 220lb minimum weight makes sense when many of the Japanese 450s are pushing 235-240 pounds and a 20lb weight loss is next to impossible to achieve without insane amounts of money and engineering. Too bad for them that KTM puts bikes on the showroom floor that weight 223lbs.

From the rulebook:

3.17 Minimum Motorcycle Weight
a. 250 Class: 194 pounds 2-stroke / 212 pounds 4-stroke
b. 450 Class: 212 pounds 2-stroke / 220 pounds 4-stroke
2/18/2021 8:11pm
Does anyone actually want air shocks/forks? I prefer springs on MTN bikes for the feel, I'm now on my 4th KTM with air forks and while I'm happy enough with the performance I really didn't miss putting air in my forks every ride while on a CRF450 for a stint. Especially when not riding at a track etc. I really really don't look forward to having to put air in my shock also.
1

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