Insight into the Tensions Between US Racing / Teams and World Supercross

ATKpilot99
Posts
9754
Joined
4/13/2010
Location
Lake Geneva, WI US
9/17/2022 12:09pm
ATKpilot99 wrote:
There was an off season World SX championship that had 4 or 5 rounds in the 90s . And there was also a SX world championship...
There was an off season World SX championship that had 4 or 5 rounds in the 90s . And there was also a SX world championship in the early 2000s that ran the same US rounds but you had to race the 2 Euro rounds that took place before the holidays to be eligible . It died out
arebnac wrote:
Great insight. Never heard of that. But as you said. Both failed, right? So maaaaaybe theres no market for that. Im not cheering against WSX, dont...
Great insight. Never heard of that. But as you said. Both failed, right? So maaaaaybe theres no market for that.
Im not cheering against WSX, dont get me wrong. But MAYBE theres just no public for that. "Most" of the teams and riders are americans for a reason, u'know?
There apparently wasn't then . The off season series in the 90s had the heavy hitters too . Emig won it one year , I think McGrath another . I have the final round of that series from the 99 season on an old vhs tape somewhere . It was at the Rosebowl here in the states . All the top guys were there but it was lightly attended. Even here no one cared .
1
kylemenz1
Posts
606
Joined
12/8/2019
Location
Carlsbad, CA US
Fantasy
956th
9/17/2022 12:31pm
kylemenz1 wrote:
I like the idea of world Supercross. I’ve been wanting an F1 style format for Supercross for a long time. Everyone always complains about lappers, and...
I like the idea of world Supercross. I’ve been wanting an F1 style format for Supercross for a long time. Everyone always complains about lappers, and ML512 even said he doesn’t think the backmarkers should be making a living racing. This type of format with only 20 guys on the gate and the best from around the world should keep racing closer.

If it turns into a premier racing organization and our American guys graduate to the top level from American Supercross it would give us fans even more of a reason to cheer. And too boot it would tighten up the racing in American Supercross because the free guys that are 5 seconds a lap faster will be gone to an “elite” racing series.
ML512 wrote:
Just to clarify, I said the guys who are 6-7 seconds off making the night show shouldn’t be in the conversation of making a living off...
Just to clarify, I said the guys who are 6-7 seconds off making the night show shouldn’t be in the conversation of making a living off a dirt bike.
I get that. I should have been more articulate.

It would be cool if one promoter could run 3 different series. 2 feeder series to the WSX. They could have AX feed into SX feed into WSX.

Racing is racing in my opinion. Take the top 5 guys out of SX and you’ve e still got guys racing for win. Closer competition draws more fans period. If you’re not a fan of the sport around the 15min mark of SX you’ve got no idea who’s winning and who’s getting lapped.

1
7

The Shop

ATKpilot99
Posts
9754
Joined
4/13/2010
Location
Lake Geneva, WI US
9/19/2022 8:11am
Tomac is perfect for this series. Retiring from outdoors, approaching 30 in the twilight of his career . Maybe he can win both SX titles next season.
Gungadin
Posts
235
Joined
7/8/2022
Location
Sarasota, FL US
9/19/2022 10:53am
DonM wrote:
Or he's all in on getting paid $250K+ for one race.....
What do you think Don, There was a good photo of travel mates Roczen, Tomac and Cianciarulo in front of a plane a while ago.

Any chance Adam might like a low intensity working holiday seeing the world with his buddies next year?
6
DonM
Posts
6721
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
9/19/2022 11:01am
DonM wrote:
Or he's all in on getting paid $250K+ for one race.....
Gungadin wrote:
What do you think Don, There was a good photo of travel mates Roczen, Tomac and Cianciarulo in front of a plane a while ago. Any...
What do you think Don, There was a good photo of travel mates Roczen, Tomac and Cianciarulo in front of a plane a while ago.

Any chance Adam might like a low intensity working holiday seeing the world with his buddies next year?
If only you understood what a contract is……
1
2
ML512
Posts
15424
Joined
12/28/2008
Location
Wildomar, CA US
Fantasy
36th
9/19/2022 11:03am
Gungadin wrote:
What do you think Don, There was a good photo of travel mates Roczen, Tomac and Cianciarulo in front of a plane a while ago. Any...
What do you think Don, There was a good photo of travel mates Roczen, Tomac and Cianciarulo in front of a plane a while ago.

Any chance Adam might like a low intensity working holiday seeing the world with his buddies next year?
Adam just renewed with Kawasaki and I can nearly guarantee his contract is for US SX, MX, and SMX...he won't be allowed to race World SX.
6
KONG
Posts
783
Joined
9/2/2021
Location
FR
9/19/2022 11:56am Edited Date/Time 9/19/2022 12:05pm
A series in the off season would have been great. Never saw the reasoning behind trying to take down the US nationals
As usual, I really enjoyed listening to Michael. Yet the idea that positioning this new championship as an off-season winter series (and one that would live for helping privateers at that) would have been a good solution is really weird to me...
I understand it could be appealling to fans, but from a businessman's point of view, it's just not admissible.
You're ambitious, you wanna be a leader, you wanna make money, you put out a shitload of cash to buy the "world championship" label, you're ready to ruffle some feathers, you go for it, and you're sure NOT going to ratify from the start the fact that you're a second tier series and turn yourself inside out to plan your races without bothering any of your fella promoters...
I don't think they'll win, but TBAglobal means business and is ready for war.
That's the tone they went for from the very start.
3
10
Graybeard
Posts
1068
Joined
11/25/2013
Location
Athens, TX US
Fantasy
2478th
9/19/2022 12:00pm
ML512 wrote:
Link to video here: https://www.vitalmx.com/videos/features/Why-is-there-Tension-Between-US-Racing-Series-Teams-and-the-World-Supercross-Series,21829/ML512,13480 Podcast should pop up in our Vital MX feed in a little bit. Myself and Jamie dive into some of the...
Link to video here: https://www.vitalmx.com/videos/features/Why-is-there-Tension-Between-US…

Podcast should pop up in our Vital MX feed in a little bit. Myself and Jamie dive into some of the issues and tensions between the US Racing Industry and World Supercross.

Hopefully this helps explain a bit of it.

It's a bit to digest so let's discuss it if anyone has thoughts or questions.
Great insight, Michael, you and Darkside did a great job. The partnership relationship was very interesting to me, and learning of how the OEM bonus structures work these days really explain a lot about this whole issue. Thanks for breaking this down!

The only thing I wasn't completely following was your logic on how a successful WSX series would ultimately be just like the current SX series as far as the upper tier riders getting the big contracts and how lower-tier riders would fare. Is that assuming the US OEMs ultimately allow their top talent to go race the WSX? That I get, but I was thinking the purse structure could still benefit our second tier riders, and then the whole US outdoors picture opens up to the second tier riders who stay home to race US Nationals rather than fly over to WSX.
1
KONG
Posts
783
Joined
9/2/2021
Location
FR
9/19/2022 12:04pm
DonM wrote:
Arrogance...They truly believed that the riders and teams would line up to race this series because nobody wanted to race the outdoors and everyone would love...
Arrogance...They truly believed that the riders and teams would line up to race this series because nobody wanted to race the outdoors and everyone would love to do the Brayton plan....I have been saying from the very beginning that they should have built the series as a fall/off season series...unfortunately I don't see them succeeding long term because of their arrogance...
Arrogance?
What arrogance?

"SX Global is a collective of world class masterminds"
Laughing

"the first truly global supercross championship"
Laughing

"unlock the sport's global potential"
Laughing

"WSX is the preeminent global series for the sport of supercross"
Laughing

"a ‘pilot’ season of five races running from September through November"
Laughing

"featuring the sport’s elite riders to stadiums around the world"
Laughing



2
11
c0ncEpT
Posts
1264
Joined
5/13/2015
Location
Harrison Twp., MI US
9/19/2022 1:02pm
tek14 wrote:
How can WSX kill any racing series with just 2 club races they call championship?
With money....

Why race an SX season when you can make the same money racing 2 club races?

WSX would just be a blip on the radar if they weren't throwing around so much money.
1
RichieW13
Posts
1786
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Thousand Oaks, CA US
Fantasy
2889th
9/19/2022 1:26pm
ML512 wrote:
Link to video here: https://www.vitalmx.com/videos/features/Why-is-there-Tension-Between-US-Racing-Series-Teams-and-the-World-Supercross-Series,21829/ML512,13480 Podcast should pop up in our Vital MX feed in a little bit. Myself and Jamie dive into some of the...
Link to video here: https://www.vitalmx.com/videos/features/Why-is-there-Tension-Between-US…

Podcast should pop up in our Vital MX feed in a little bit. Myself and Jamie dive into some of the issues and tensions between the US Racing Industry and World Supercross.

Hopefully this helps explain a bit of it.

It's a bit to digest so let's discuss it if anyone has thoughts or questions.
Is there an RSS feed for your podcast, or can I only listen through the website?
FastEddy
Posts
13363
Joined
8/3/2008
Location
., FL US
Fantasy
955th
9/19/2022 2:03pm Edited Date/Time 9/19/2022 2:19pm
That was a good listen.

I think WSX would work going to the 15 race summer format.
I think it would open up more spots for riders doing the outdoors too.
In pro bass fishing when major league fishing grew and a lot of top anglers moved over to that series a lot of folks said it would kill the Bassmaster elite series tour. They were very wrong ,more talent stepped up and the series is as good as it ever was. I'd like to think MX/SX has grown greatly over the years and we also have a growing talent pool. Nothing wrong with growing the sport and adding another series to cater to a growing talent pool sport wide (indoors & outdoors). I also think maybe having 2 major SX series will be more exposure for the sport and some day grow into something with far more outside sponsorship.
We'll never know if they don't try it. Smile



1
4
ML512
Posts
15424
Joined
12/28/2008
Location
Wildomar, CA US
Fantasy
36th
9/19/2022 9:10pm
ML512 wrote:
Link to video here: https://www.vitalmx.com/videos/features/Why-is-there-Tension-Between-US-Racing-Series-Teams-and-the-World-Supercross-Series,21829/ML512,13480 Podcast should pop up in our Vital MX feed in a little bit. Myself and Jamie dive into some of the...
Link to video here: https://www.vitalmx.com/videos/features/Why-is-there-Tension-Between-US…

Podcast should pop up in our Vital MX feed in a little bit. Myself and Jamie dive into some of the issues and tensions between the US Racing Industry and World Supercross.

Hopefully this helps explain a bit of it.

It's a bit to digest so let's discuss it if anyone has thoughts or questions.
RichieW13 wrote:
Is there an RSS feed for your podcast, or can I only listen through the website?
It’s in Apple podcasts, Stitcher and most other popular podcast apps.
KONG
Posts
783
Joined
9/2/2021
Location
FR
9/20/2022 2:18am
Yup.
He's nice, he loves the sport, there's room for everyone, he's sorry if some people feel they're arrogant and aggressive, they're here to grow the sport, they've had tons of offers from teams and race promoters, everything's fine...
#kumbaya
#snoozefest
2
8
USA
Posts
1973
Joined
9/4/2016
Location
Richmond, TX US
Fantasy
545th
9/20/2022 8:33am
They had "over 50 professional, world class teams" sign up for the 10 spots they had, and they ended up picking a criminal like Mark at MDK, and also Rick Ware who has what, 1 or 2 years of Supercross experience 15+ years ago.
6
ML512
Posts
15424
Joined
12/28/2008
Location
Wildomar, CA US
Fantasy
36th
9/20/2022 8:47am
Graybeard wrote:
Great insight, Michael, you and Darkside did a great job. The partnership relationship was very interesting to me, and learning of how the OEM bonus structures...
Great insight, Michael, you and Darkside did a great job. The partnership relationship was very interesting to me, and learning of how the OEM bonus structures work these days really explain a lot about this whole issue. Thanks for breaking this down!

The only thing I wasn't completely following was your logic on how a successful WSX series would ultimately be just like the current SX series as far as the upper tier riders getting the big contracts and how lower-tier riders would fare. Is that assuming the US OEMs ultimately allow their top talent to go race the WSX? That I get, but I was thinking the purse structure could still benefit our second tier riders, and then the whole US outdoors picture opens up to the second tier riders who stay home to race US Nationals rather than fly over to WSX.
Successful by their own words is to get a huge chunk of the top guys from here. I may have over-generalized that comment though. I think if it were truly successful to the levels they want, it would put money in the pockets of a lot of riders that are already doing well. But you are on point with at some point, wether it's outdoors or the back 30% of the World field would differ in entries. Ultimately it would provide more rides, I was more or less trying to discuss how I'm not sure if it would provide as wide of range of support as some people I've spoken to for see.

However, with the response they're already receiving from OEMs and teams, I'm not sure how many factory riders from our neck of the woods you'll even see get a deal to race SX here and there / skip outdoors here...especially with what's coming down the pipeline with SuperMotocross.

I think it'll attract a few big names guys but for the most part, their US rider participation might be limited to riders outside of factory level teams.
McG194
Posts
3409
Joined
9/7/2017
Location
Palm Coast, FL US
9/20/2022 8:58am Edited Date/Time 9/20/2022 8:59am
DonM wrote:
Arrogance...They truly believed that the riders and teams would line up to race this series because nobody wanted to race the outdoors and everyone would love...
Arrogance...They truly believed that the riders and teams would line up to race this series because nobody wanted to race the outdoors and everyone would love to do the Brayton plan....I have been saying from the very beginning that they should have built the series as a fall/off season series...unfortunately I don't see them succeeding long term because of their arrogance...
KONG wrote:
Arrogance? What arrogance? "SX Global is a collective of world class masterminds" :laugh: "the first truly global supercross championship" :laugh: "unlock the sport's global potential" :laugh...
Arrogance?
What arrogance?

"SX Global is a collective of world class masterminds"
Laughing

"the first truly global supercross championship"
Laughing

"unlock the sport's global potential"
Laughing

"WSX is the preeminent global series for the sport of supercross"
Laughing

"a ‘pilot’ season of five races running from September through November"
Laughing

"featuring the sport’s elite riders to stadiums around the world"
Laughing



I really think their marketing slogan should have been:

"We're a bunch of Jackwagons who don't know what we are doing but come see some has beens or never was'es race some watered down crap tracks."


SMDH



* Obvious sarcasm if you couldn't tell.
1
7
9/20/2022 9:27am
You guys are sleeping on this series, this is a fantastic business model, with a long term plan.. let’s revisit this in 2-3 years and you will see the impact!
It’s 2022 now the world is still fucked.. WSX will deliver!
2
8
KONG
Posts
783
Joined
9/2/2021
Location
FR
9/20/2022 10:36am
McG194 wrote:
I really think their marketing slogan should have been: "We're a bunch of Jackwagons who don't know what we are doing but come see some has...
I really think their marketing slogan should have been:

"We're a bunch of Jackwagons who don't know what we are doing but come see some has beens or never was'es race some watered down crap tracks."


SMDH



* Obvious sarcasm if you couldn't tell.
When a sarcasm is so close to the truth, can it still be called a sarcasm?
Wink
2
7
KONG
Posts
783
Joined
9/2/2021
Location
FR
9/20/2022 10:37am
You guys are sleeping on this series, this is a fantastic business model, with a long term plan.. let’s revisit this in 2-3 years and you...
You guys are sleeping on this series, this is a fantastic business model, with a long term plan.. let’s revisit this in 2-3 years and you will see the impact!
It’s 2022 now the world is still fucked.. WSX will deliver!
LaughingLaughingLaughing
2
6
DonM
Posts
6721
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
9/20/2022 11:01am
You guys are sleeping on this series, this is a fantastic business model, with a long term plan.. let’s revisit this in 2-3 years and you...
You guys are sleeping on this series, this is a fantastic business model, with a long term plan.. let’s revisit this in 2-3 years and you will see the impact!
It’s 2022 now the world is still fucked.. WSX will deliver!
Fantastic business model....to go and attempt to recruit OEM's top riders and teams from an existing series to succeed....what they didn't plan on was the OEM's lack of support, current top riders lack of interest and Feld and MXSports to work together on a plan to work together....As I've said in previous posts, their downfall will be their arrogance and hopefully they will be able to correct their mistakes and become a successful off season series in the fall that doesn't compete with the other series in the world...
6
2
Gungadin
Posts
235
Joined
7/8/2022
Location
Sarasota, FL US
9/20/2022 1:22pm
DonM wrote:
Fantastic business model....to go and attempt to recruit OEM's top riders and teams from an existing series to succeed....what they didn't plan on was the OEM's...
Fantastic business model....to go and attempt to recruit OEM's top riders and teams from an existing series to succeed....what they didn't plan on was the OEM's lack of support, current top riders lack of interest and Feld and MXSports to work together on a plan to work together....As I've said in previous posts, their downfall will be their arrogance and hopefully they will be able to correct their mistakes and become a successful off season series in the fall that doesn't compete with the other series in the world...
You're tripping over it again Don.

Saying there is no OEM support is plain wrong.

Craig Dack Racing, CDR is 30 years in with Yamaha Australia and is factory backed.

These are the guys who sent over their version of the 'unfixable' Blue Pig to race in the US and Factory Yamaha US would not let their riders try the Aussie bikes- because they were so much better.

Yeah, Hilly is getting on and Chis. might not be a top contender but their two Aussie riders Clout and especially now Tanti would easily run top 10 in AMA SX.
7
109
Posts
451
Joined
4/2/2012
Location
Murrieta, CA US
9/20/2022 1:40pm
DonM wrote:
Fantastic business model....to go and attempt to recruit OEM's top riders and teams from an existing series to succeed....what they didn't plan on was the OEM's...
Fantastic business model....to go and attempt to recruit OEM's top riders and teams from an existing series to succeed....what they didn't plan on was the OEM's lack of support, current top riders lack of interest and Feld and MXSports to work together on a plan to work together....As I've said in previous posts, their downfall will be their arrogance and hopefully they will be able to correct their mistakes and become a successful off season series in the fall that doesn't compete with the other series in the world...
Gungadin wrote:
You're tripping over it again Don. Saying there is no OEM support is plain wrong. Craig Dack Racing, CDR is 30 years in with Yamaha Australia...
You're tripping over it again Don.

Saying there is no OEM support is plain wrong.

Craig Dack Racing, CDR is 30 years in with Yamaha Australia and is factory backed.

These are the guys who sent over their version of the 'unfixable' Blue Pig to race in the US and Factory Yamaha US would not let their riders try the Aussie bikes- because they were so much better.

Yeah, Hilly is getting on and Chis. might not be a top contender but their two Aussie riders Clout and especially now Tanti would easily run top 10 in AMA SX.
In what class? Futures?
2
5
DonM
Posts
6721
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
9/20/2022 2:45pm
DonM wrote:
Fantastic business model....to go and attempt to recruit OEM's top riders and teams from an existing series to succeed....what they didn't plan on was the OEM's...
Fantastic business model....to go and attempt to recruit OEM's top riders and teams from an existing series to succeed....what they didn't plan on was the OEM's lack of support, current top riders lack of interest and Feld and MXSports to work together on a plan to work together....As I've said in previous posts, their downfall will be their arrogance and hopefully they will be able to correct their mistakes and become a successful off season series in the fall that doesn't compete with the other series in the world...
Gungadin wrote:
You're tripping over it again Don. Saying there is no OEM support is plain wrong. Craig Dack Racing, CDR is 30 years in with Yamaha Australia...
You're tripping over it again Don.

Saying there is no OEM support is plain wrong.

Craig Dack Racing, CDR is 30 years in with Yamaha Australia and is factory backed.

These are the guys who sent over their version of the 'unfixable' Blue Pig to race in the US and Factory Yamaha US would not let their riders try the Aussie bikes- because they were so much better.

Yeah, Hilly is getting on and Chis. might not be a top contender but their two Aussie riders Clout and especially now Tanti would easily run top 10 in AMA SX.
I think you are confusing OEM support and a supported team....Is Yamaha paying a bonus for a championship or race win in WSX? Who are the riders contracted with that are on the team? The rest of your babble is worthless....Enjoy the koolaid....
4
4
Gungadin
Posts
235
Joined
7/8/2022
Location
Sarasota, FL US
9/20/2022 11:47pm Edited Date/Time 9/21/2022 3:37am
DonM wrote:
I think you are confusing OEM support and a supported team....Is Yamaha paying a bonus for a championship or race win in WSX? Who are the...
I think you are confusing OEM support and a supported team....Is Yamaha paying a bonus for a championship or race win in WSX? Who are the riders contracted with that are on the team? The rest of your babble is worthless....Enjoy the koolaid....
Ahh, the fine print added later. Always a good sign that something important and detrimental to your case was overlooked. Honda Genuine Parts are also involved of course and I have no doubt other OEM's will be as well. After all they exist to sell bikes and parts.
Given Tomac's endorsement and his Yamaha affiliations it might not be outside the realms of speculation for him to be on a non Star Yamaha in 2023 WSX if his Cardiff ride goes well and the pilot series firms everything up.
We could see Kenny on one of Yarrive Konskys Honda's if muted suggestions have any weight.
JA might want to have a WSX run as well in 23 or 24. He did well at the 2019 AusX. Then there is Webb who is disaffected. Who knows?
What do you think Don? Ricky on a Triumph in the over 40's?
6
Motofinne
Posts
10670
Joined
1/4/2014
Location
FI
9/21/2022 12:39am
I admire peoples enthusiastic desire to see a series fail that for the first time ever in our sport wants to work with team owners and riders long term with moneymaking and value creating as a central point in the business model.

DonM
Posts
6721
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
9/21/2022 6:01am
Motofinne wrote:
I admire peoples enthusiastic desire to see a series fail that for the first time ever in our sport wants to work with team owners and...
I admire peoples enthusiastic desire to see a series fail that for the first time ever in our sport wants to work with team owners and riders long term with moneymaking and value creating as a central point in the business model.

It's not about wanting it to fail....but how is it any different to wanting it to succeed at the cost of another race series. I really hope they succeed in the fall off season where it belongs.
5
1

Post a reply to: Insight into the Tensions Between US Racing / Teams and World Supercross

The Latest