Insight into the Tensions Between US Racing / Teams and World Supercross

ML512
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9/16/2022 5:42pm Edited Date/Time 9/21/2022 10:55am
Link to video here: https://www.vitalmx.com/videos/features/Why-is-there-Tension-Between-US…

Podcast should pop up in our Vital MX feed in a little bit. Myself and Jamie dive into some of the issues and tensions between the US Racing Industry and World Supercross.

Hopefully this helps explain a bit of it.

It's a bit to digest so let's discuss it if anyone has thoughts or questions.
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scott_nz
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9/16/2022 7:08pm
awesome content, providing a lot of the back story about the issues,

to your last question, its been an interesting year from the sports point view,

I don't know anyone that has wanted WSX to fail, but a lot of people didn't want the top riders to go out of the outdoors either, like you say in this video, a 5-7 round off USA season series would have pleased everyone,

it will be awesome to see it continue, and even get to where arena cross was in the late 90's early 2000's, a good place for good riders to make good money, the F1/indycar reference is good, or maybe even Moto GP / World SBK, there will always be a number 1 series, and that at the moment is the AMA series, and will be for some time,

I think WSX trying to piggy back off that series was a mistake, and there have been multiple reports that they ruffled feathers at A2, they needed to go out on their own more, add in FIM arrogance to the issue and its blown up more than it needed to,

for someone that's been in the industry (in NZ at least) for a long time, it is really interesting to me that the OEM's did not back the FIM, but KTM had done this with FIM enduro World Series a few years ago, so the FIM and Dirt bikes is at a bit of a turning point maybe,

also, on this board, the demise of the outdoors has been grossly overstated,
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Yeti831
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9/16/2022 7:11pm
I really wish people would just drop the bullshit and universally support racing as a whole.
9/16/2022 7:20pm
I love more racing as long as it doesn’t mess with ama sx or outdoors in a negative way. If the series pulled the same type of guys it got this year every year, I would fully support it. It does baffle me how people don’t see Hondas side(or any other oem).
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clarkgray432
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9/16/2022 7:21pm
A series in the off season would have been great. Never saw the reasoning behind trying to take down the US nationals
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The Shop

Island Boi
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9/16/2022 7:26pm
Yeti831 wrote:
I really wish people would just drop the bullshit and universally support racing as a whole.
Yeah, how dare anyone speak up. We all want the same thing: 45 races a year with the same riders, formats and tracks. MXSports gets to keep all the money, and the only way a rider gets anything is if they bring in an outside sponsor. That’s Americana
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DonM
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9/16/2022 7:50pm
A series in the off season would have been great. Never saw the reasoning behind trying to take down the US nationals
Arrogance...They truly believed that the riders and teams would line up to race this series because nobody wanted to race the outdoors and everyone would love to do the Brayton plan....I have been saying from the very beginning that they should have built the series as a fall/off season series...unfortunately I don't see them succeeding long term because of their arrogance...
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9/16/2022 8:06pm
A series in the off season would have been great. Never saw the reasoning behind trying to take down the US nationals
DonM wrote:
Arrogance...They truly believed that the riders and teams would line up to race this series because nobody wanted to race the outdoors and everyone would love...
Arrogance...They truly believed that the riders and teams would line up to race this series because nobody wanted to race the outdoors and everyone would love to do the Brayton plan....I have been saying from the very beginning that they should have built the series as a fall/off season series...unfortunately I don't see them succeeding long term because of their arrogance...
It seems like outdoors is similar to working out for us average guys. We hate the thought but once we do it we actually have fun.
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Gungadin
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9/16/2022 11:05pm
DonM wrote:
Arrogance...They truly believed that the riders and teams would line up to race this series because nobody wanted to race the outdoors and everyone would love...
Arrogance...They truly believed that the riders and teams would line up to race this series because nobody wanted to race the outdoors and everyone would love to do the Brayton plan....I have been saying from the very beginning that they should have built the series as a fall/off season series...unfortunately I don't see them succeeding long term because of their arrogance...
They're succeeding because we are having these discussions. Tomac and Roczen signed...
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WCRider
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9/17/2022 3:27am
You can build a WSX, You will never have SX US history , you will never have A1, you will never have Daytona, you will never have the power of SX US. WSX sounds already cold. The only way to grow the sport is to plug those oversea races at the US series. The good thing about the WSX is just more ride for riders to make a living with. I don't thing that WSX will still alive more than 3/4 years. I was alreay a bit pissed about the enterteining way that the sport is going to the US but when I watch preview show from WSX, that's looks like all about enterteining like triple crown. I hate triple crown because 3 starts is too much. Safety first and 3 starts are no good for the safety of riders. They are cool for pop corn fans because the first turn crash risk is higher but that's very bad for riders in my opinion.
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luke11
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9/17/2022 3:44am
I think with Ken deal basically Honda is in bed with AMA/Feld and after them making plenty or rule changes for them over the years (2 stroke displacement rules) it was Hondas turn to repay the favour and stop their riders doing WSX.

I think same has to be said for the other manufacturers, they’re getting pressure from feld/ama/mx sports
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ARM670
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9/17/2022 5:38am
I think this all goes back to the Jam sports fiasco. It gave the FIM a foot in the door of the US racing scene. Then after 20 years we were finally able to not renew their contract and get them out. Now with egg on their face the FIM helping with WSX and to take down the Nationals. Remember the FIM was partners with Feld (Clear Channel at the time). So yes, I would like to see WSX fail so it doesn't take away from the Nationals.
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DonM
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9/17/2022 6:10am
DonM wrote:
Arrogance...They truly believed that the riders and teams would line up to race this series because nobody wanted to race the outdoors and everyone would love...
Arrogance...They truly believed that the riders and teams would line up to race this series because nobody wanted to race the outdoors and everyone would love to do the Brayton plan....I have been saying from the very beginning that they should have built the series as a fall/off season series...unfortunately I don't see them succeeding long term because of their arrogance...
Gungadin wrote:
They're succeeding because we are having these discussions. Tomac and Roczen signed...
Haha!! Tomac got paid $250K + for one race....not sure I'd call that signed
Kenny is getting paid $250k per race to show up and it cost him his Honda contract....not sure that's signed....
They have gone from 6 races to two and their next season is in question....not so sure I would call that success...
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Gungadin
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9/17/2022 6:19am
DonM wrote:
Haha!! Tomac got paid $250K + for one race....not sure I'd call that signed Kenny is getting paid $250k per race to show up and it...
Haha!! Tomac got paid $250K + for one race....not sure I'd call that signed
Kenny is getting paid $250k per race to show up and it cost him his Honda contract....not sure that's signed....
They have gone from 6 races to two and their next season is in question....not so sure I would call that success...
That's all fair enough.
We'll have to wait but it a decent start.
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motomike137
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9/17/2022 6:24am Edited Date/Time 9/17/2022 9:26am
I'm selfish. I don't want WSX to succeed whatsoever. I also don't love the gimmicky "Supermotocross" bs either. The guys stateside already have a huge schedule and this stuff could ultimately end us in a Indy Car/Cart type of split that will be a mess. We have two of the three best series in the world and they need protecting. I hope the USA based teams and series manage to squelch this thing.
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DonM
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9/17/2022 6:35am
I'm selfish. I don't want WSX to succeed whatsoever. I also don't love the gimmicky "Supermotocross" bs either. The guys stateside already have a huge schedule...
I'm selfish. I don't want WSX to succeed whatsoever. I also don't love the gimmicky "Supermotocross" bs either. The guys stateside already have a huge schedule and this stuff could ultimately end us in a Indy Car/Cart type of split that will be a mess. We have two of the three best series in the world and they need protecting. I hope the USA based teams and series manage to squelch this thing.
At the end of the day it's one more race than what they have been racing and if what ML is saying about the purse for the three races ($5M) with larger race payouts throughout the season.
The biggest differences so far with the Indycar/Cart split is in that the newcomer had the biggest race already and the manufacturers didn't chose sides...
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9/17/2022 7:48am
It seems they would’ve been better to co promote two world rounds that count towards Supercross still keeping it at 17 rounds for the title. While we’re on the subject why in the hell isn’t arena cross in the fall leading up to Supercross like a AAA series where people can get behind it and have something to watch until A1.
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9/17/2022 8:04am
It seems they would’ve been better to co promote two world rounds that count towards Supercross still keeping it at 17 rounds for the title. While...
It seems they would’ve been better to co promote two world rounds that count towards Supercross still keeping it at 17 rounds for the title. While we’re on the subject why in the hell isn’t arena cross in the fall leading up to Supercross like a AAA series where people can get behind it and have something to watch until A1.
Don’t want to compete against football
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bd
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9/17/2022 8:25am Edited Date/Time 9/17/2022 8:27am
ARM670 wrote:
I think this all goes back to the Jam sports fiasco. It gave the FIM a foot in the door of the US racing scene. Then...
I think this all goes back to the Jam sports fiasco. It gave the FIM a foot in the door of the US racing scene. Then after 20 years we were finally able to not renew their contract and get them out. Now with egg on their face the FIM helping with WSX and to take down the Nationals. Remember the FIM was partners with Feld (Clear Channel at the time). So yes, I would like to see WSX fail so it doesn't take away from the Nationals.
Thank you. Here’s more proof of other sports got hurt due more than one promoters pushing a new series.

- US road racing had two promoters. It hasn’t recovered.

- boxing: how many promoters?

- Indy car racing: premier racing in the 1980s only to be a shadow of nascar today.

- PGA is in trouble.

WSX will kill outdoor motocross and hurt Supercross by diluting the talent. I’m a concerned fan. Thank you HONDA for remembering what happened to US road racing.
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tek14
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9/17/2022 8:28am
How can WSX kill any racing series with just 2 club races they call championship?
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tonyd811
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9/17/2022 8:32am
DonM wrote:
Arrogance...They truly believed that the riders and teams would line up to race this series because nobody wanted to race the outdoors and everyone would love...
Arrogance...They truly believed that the riders and teams would line up to race this series because nobody wanted to race the outdoors and everyone would love to do the Brayton plan....I have been saying from the very beginning that they should have built the series as a fall/off season series...unfortunately I don't see them succeeding long term because of their arrogance...
Gungadin wrote:
They're succeeding because we are having these discussions. Tomac and Roczen signed...
Be careful using the "succeeding" word. Any company or restaurant can survive it's first year in business...it's the next 2 that are questionable.
Let's be honest in staying that the US Supercross Series (no matter who owns it or who sponsors it) is the premier series vehicle globally. Because of it, many are employed/earn a living year after year (from shop sweepers to riders). This series is succeeding because they return year after year and have proved to do so for 40+years.

The OEM's (my guess) understand this and respect this.
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Gravel
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9/17/2022 8:33am
Once the fat start money for top guys dries up it’ll fade away. Especially now that outdoors and SX have finally started working together. Maybe it’ll survive as a offseason series for tier 2 guys to pull decent money?

It’s a payday practice race for ET, he gets to shakedown the 23 YZ in race conditions. Roczen too, wherever he lands he’s gonna need real races to figure out what parts of his program to blame for crappy finishes..
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kylemenz1
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9/17/2022 8:55am
I like the idea of world Supercross. I’ve been wanting an F1 style format for Supercross for a long time. Everyone always complains about lappers, and ML512 even said he doesn’t think the backmarkers should be making a living racing. This type of format with only 20 guys on the gate and the best from around the world should keep racing closer.

If it turns into a premier racing organization and our American guys graduate to the top level from American Supercross it would give us fans even more of a reason to cheer. And too boot it would tighten up the racing in American Supercross because the free guys that are 5 seconds a lap faster will be gone to an “elite” racing series.
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NV825
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9/17/2022 9:12am Edited Date/Time 9/17/2022 9:13am
kylemenz1 wrote:
I like the idea of world Supercross. I’ve been wanting an F1 style format for Supercross for a long time. Everyone always complains about lappers, and...
I like the idea of world Supercross. I’ve been wanting an F1 style format for Supercross for a long time. Everyone always complains about lappers, and ML512 even said he doesn’t think the backmarkers should be making a living racing. This type of format with only 20 guys on the gate and the best from around the world should keep racing closer.

If it turns into a premier racing organization and our American guys graduate to the top level from American Supercross it would give us fans even more of a reason to cheer. And too boot it would tighten up the racing in American Supercross because the free guys that are 5 seconds a lap faster will be gone to an “elite” racing series.
You take away the top stars and the public interest fades dramatically for the US series. That’s hundreds of jobs now wiped out because ARay, Chiz, and others aren’t packing stadiums.
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9/17/2022 9:27am
bd wrote:
Thank you. Here’s more proof of other sports got hurt due more than one promoters pushing a new series. - US road racing had two promoters...
Thank you. Here’s more proof of other sports got hurt due more than one promoters pushing a new series.

- US road racing had two promoters. It hasn’t recovered.

- boxing: how many promoters?

- Indy car racing: premier racing in the 1980s only to be a shadow of nascar today.

- PGA is in trouble.

WSX will kill outdoor motocross and hurt Supercross by diluting the talent. I’m a concerned fan. Thank you HONDA for remembering what happened to US road racing.
Honda probably had more to do with the fall of AMA Superbike Racing than anyone else. Without works parts from HRC, Honda was incapable of fielding a competitive Superbike. Compared to the Yosh GSX-R 1000, Honda’s HRC Superbikes were a work of art, bristling with magnesium works parts that were necessary to keep them competitive. When the rules changed eliminating works bikes, Honda knew they couldn’t be competitive so they took their bat and ball and went home. Once Honda pulled out, the other OEMs eventually followed suit.
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USA
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9/17/2022 9:31am

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arebnac
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9/17/2022 9:58am
Nice episode! Thanks for sharing!
But Hmmmm....You made me think of something.
Supercross is a big success in America and it has been for decades.. "period".
But we have never had a World SX series.... even knowing its a lucrative business, right? Its just starting now, in 2022...
Could it be that...the reason no one ever tried it on a global scale its because theres no actual market for that?

I mean, just for the sake of comparision... THREE different groups tried to run Rallycross in america over the last 10 years and they all failed. The reason was that. There was clearly no market for that euro-centered sport in US.
Maybe we could be seeing the same thing now?
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ATKpilot99
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9/17/2022 10:04am
arebnac wrote:
Nice episode! Thanks for sharing! But Hmmmm....You made me think of something. Supercross is a big success in America and it has been for decades.. "period"...
Nice episode! Thanks for sharing!
But Hmmmm....You made me think of something.
Supercross is a big success in America and it has been for decades.. "period".
But we have never had a World SX series.... even knowing its a lucrative business, right? Its just starting now, in 2022...
Could it be that...the reason no one ever tried it on a global scale its because theres no actual market for that?

I mean, just for the sake of comparision... THREE different groups tried to run Rallycross in america over the last 10 years and they all failed. The reason was that. There was clearly no market for that euro-centered sport in US.
Maybe we could be seeing the same thing now?
There was an off season World SX championship that had 4 or 5 rounds in the 90s . And there was also a SX world championship in the early 2000s that ran the same US rounds but you had to race the 2 Euro rounds that took place before the holidays to be eligible . It died out
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philG
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9/17/2022 10:39am
SlowOldGuy wrote:
Don’t want to compete against football
Fuck Football
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arebnac
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9/17/2022 10:49am Edited Date/Time 9/17/2022 10:50am
ATKpilot99 wrote:
There was an off season World SX championship that had 4 or 5 rounds in the 90s . And there was also a SX world championship...
There was an off season World SX championship that had 4 or 5 rounds in the 90s . And there was also a SX world championship in the early 2000s that ran the same US rounds but you had to race the 2 Euro rounds that took place before the holidays to be eligible . It died out
Great insight. Never heard of that. But as you said. Both failed, right? So maaaaaybe theres no market for that.
Im not cheering against WSX, dont get me wrong. But MAYBE theres just no public for that. "Most" of the teams and riders are americans for a reason, u'know?
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ML512
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9/17/2022 11:25am
kylemenz1 wrote:
I like the idea of world Supercross. I’ve been wanting an F1 style format for Supercross for a long time. Everyone always complains about lappers, and...
I like the idea of world Supercross. I’ve been wanting an F1 style format for Supercross for a long time. Everyone always complains about lappers, and ML512 even said he doesn’t think the backmarkers should be making a living racing. This type of format with only 20 guys on the gate and the best from around the world should keep racing closer.

If it turns into a premier racing organization and our American guys graduate to the top level from American Supercross it would give us fans even more of a reason to cheer. And too boot it would tighten up the racing in American Supercross because the free guys that are 5 seconds a lap faster will be gone to an “elite” racing series.
Just to clarify, I said the guys who are 6-7 seconds off making the night show shouldn’t be in the conversation of making a living off a dirt bike.

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