Inherent Yamaha problem

10/7/2020 11:27am
Rock lodged in my countershaft sprocket on my 144. Causing me to go over bars. Broken collarbone. Shit happens. Don’t think the bracket is the problem.
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TeamGreen
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10/7/2020 11:30am
Rock lodged in my countershaft sprocket on my 144. Causing me to go over bars. Broken collarbone. Shit happens. Don’t think the bracket is the problem.
Inherent Yamaha Problem!
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-MAVERICK-
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10/7/2020 11:36am
Bearuno wrote:
It's 3 in the morning, I've been protoing a DH swingarm all bloody day and night, and am cross eyed, and didn't correct / finish off...
It's 3 in the morning, I've been protoing a DH swingarm all bloody day and night, and am cross eyed, and didn't correct / finish off that post. And, the edit feature has 'disappeared', so, apologies if that post is a bit grammatically challenging, and not understandable......Sick
FYI, the edit feature is still there.

On desktop it's in the upper right corner.

Mobile:


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SEEMEFIRST
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10/7/2020 11:43am
chaseodc wrote:
What happened to the 3rd bolt / hole? How did it manage to make it unscathed?
philG wrote:
good question.
I'm guessing it stayed attached to that point, and he removed it post failure.
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The Shop

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10/7/2020 11:45am
A quality pic of the welds would help determine the cause.
chaseodc
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10/7/2020 11:49am
Meh, he states that it wrapped up around the rear wheel. If the single bolt was the pivot point the rear edge of the aluminum cage would be damaged, the picture doesn't show that. Also, wrapping around the rear of anything wouldn't be possible.
Spode
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10/7/2020 11:50am
bh wrote:
I have heard that the Yamaha chain block mounts are the weakest out of all the bikes.
maybe you heard wrong maybe not
MZ193
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10/7/2020 11:50am
How many hours on that swingarm?
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r103
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10/7/2020 12:00pm
chaseodc wrote:
What happened to the 3rd bolt / hole? How did it manage to make it unscathed?
Ripped threads laterally bad camera view but chain guide has bent in that area also
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rbm33
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10/7/2020 12:02pm

Its not a great pic of the welds but from what I can make out it looks like those welds had been failing for quite some time. if so that should have been caught and corrected...
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JM485
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10/7/2020 12:31pm
philG wrote:
How many people actually strip the wheels out of their bikes and check for cracks on things like this?

r103 wrote:
Hmm maybe not many I’d always check the frame etc. during washing or changing tyres (as a mountain biker I know the terrors of cracked frames)...
Hmm maybe not many I’d always check the frame etc. during washing or changing tyres (as a mountain biker I know the terrors of cracked frames). I think my wrong doing was assuming that bad welds could make it past inspection never thought anything of them while looking.
philG wrote:
But what makes you say its a bad weld? I cant see from the pictures, but if the weld has cracked, vibration, will set it on...
But what makes you say its a bad weld? I cant see from the pictures, but if the weld has cracked, vibration, will set it on its way to fail.. that doesnt look like it had much of a hit to me.

But if you get a crack. and all welds have cracks, its how that propagate that causes a failure like this,

I have done post mortems on failed welds, and sectioned ones that havent failed yet, and when you see what they are like, these types of problems are not a surprise, but by the same token, you cant expect they will last forever.
After having this happen multiple times I check mine every time I wash the bike. Regardless of how often you check it that still doesn’t excuse the fact that it’s a piss poor and lazy design, not to mention there’s plenty of area for more weld bead around the brackets but they just choose not to use it.

It’s like I said in my previous thread that I linked, this is a critical area with severe consequences for a failure (as the OP found out), and the fact that none of the Japanese manufactures even make an attempt to do this right is kind of scary honestly. People are all freaked out about their bold new graphics and new frame flex characteristics that amount to jack shit in the grand scheme of things but are evidently perfectly accepting of unbelievably poor design and workmanship in this critical area.
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Bearuno
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10/7/2020 4:49pm Edited Date/Time 10/7/2020 5:00pm
-MAVERICK- wrote:
FYI, the edit feature is still there. On desktop it's in the upper right corner. Mobile: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2020/10/07/453264/s1200_Screenshot_20201007_143411_Chrome.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2020/10/07/453265/s1200_Screenshot_20201007_143437_Chrome.jpg[/img]
FYI, the edit feature is still there.

On desktop it's in the upper right corner.

Mobile:


Thanks for that!

It's just that there used to be a Red 'Edit' sort of below and off to the side of the Red 'Quote' thingo, always on the screen, that seems to have disappeared recently.

It may have something to do with my finally killing my ancient workshop Vista system 'puter (I think all of the high frequency signals finally did for it), and going to a '10' system. I'm Hi Tech, I am.........

That, and I am a complete computer cretin, and, will almost certainly forget your advice, instantly.
10/7/2020 8:35pm
The third bolt looks to have been missing for some time.



For reference I just went and removed the bolt from mine. Can clearly see the mark where the bold was. Not sure how much difference this would have made but can't of helped.





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mxracer666
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10/7/2020 9:20pm
I wonder how Factory Yamaha addresses this issue? Does anyone have a clear pic of this part of Barcia's, or Ferrandis' bike?
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kb228
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10/8/2020 3:51pm
Weld it back on yo. Maybe its a good thing it breaks like that instead of damaging the main bar on the swingarm
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SEEMEFIRST
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10/8/2020 5:02pm
Downunder wrote:
The third bolt looks to have been missing for some time. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2020/10/07/453336/s1200_s1600_7DAD48D0_A7CD_4497_B135_76383641D3C1.jpg[/img] For reference I just went and removed the bolt from mine. Can clearly see...
The third bolt looks to have been missing for some time.



For reference I just went and removed the bolt from mine. Can clearly see the mark where the bold was. Not sure how much difference this would have made but can't of helped.





Good eye, mate!
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Hcallz5
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10/8/2020 5:31pm


I can recommend the Bulletproof guard. My front bolt was almost ground flat so I had to replace it recently LOL. It's done it's job in the gnar rock sections.
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MotofactioN
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10/8/2020 8:02pm
wahh wahh. You probably overtorqued the mounting bolts and it led to that.It's okay to let the thing have a little flex. Anyways, this is motocross, shit happens. Deal with it. I bet you'll be back to riding sooner or later.
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mxtech1
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10/8/2020 8:24pm
r103 wrote:
Recently I had a freak mechanical problem which caused a large accident and numerous injuries. Just before a jump a rock caught the chain block at...
Recently I had a freak mechanical problem which caused a large accident and numerous injuries. Just before a jump a rock caught the chain block at the rear sprocket and ripped it off at the welds on swingarm (showed no prior marks of stress) . As it wrapped up around the back wheel I went straight over the handlebars. Now that this has happened it seems like a very bad design compared to other brands I’ve ridden e.g KTM. I feel now that I have lost trust in the otherwise great bike that the yz450f is


The root cause appears to be worn final drive parts that induced a bending fatigue failure on the chain guide bracket welds. The weld failure could have been prevented with regular chain, sprocket, and slider pad replacements.



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JM485
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10/8/2020 8:41pm
mxtech1 wrote:
The root cause appears to be worn final drive parts that induced a bending fatigue failure on the chain guide bracket welds. The weld failure could...
The root cause appears to be worn final drive parts that induced a bending fatigue failure on the chain guide bracket welds. The weld failure could have been prevented with regular chain, sprocket, and slider pad replacements.



I'm really struggling to find the correlation between a potentially worn sprocket and an induced bending moment on the chain guide mounting bracket, can you enlighten me here?
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mxtech1
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10/9/2020 7:50am Edited Date/Time 10/9/2020 7:54am
JM485 wrote:
I'm really struggling to find the correlation between a potentially worn sprocket and an induced bending moment on the chain guide mounting bracket, can you enlighten...
I'm really struggling to find the correlation between a potentially worn sprocket and an induced bending moment on the chain guide mounting bracket, can you enlighten me here?
You have to look past the failed part, which is the welds breaking, and then figure out from there what could have been the catalyst for that failure. There's enough circumstantial evidence in the 3 photos above to draw my conclusion.

The chain has several rotated pins. Usually this only happens if the pin and bushing surfaces are badly worn and running dry for an extended period. There is so much surface friction between the pin and bushing as it articulates around the sprocket that it can overcome pin's capacity to hold itself on the link plate. The pin to link plate design is a frictional fit to keep the pin stationary in the link plate during normal operation. Once 1 pin in the chain rotates, the neighboring links start to experience accelerated wear since the engine load is no longer being applied evenly to all links as the chain engages with the sprockets. You ended up getting these 3 to 6 link sections of chain that resist articulation, this will 100% induce an oscillation on the slack side of the chain as the stiff links transition from loaded to unloaded. What can happen with the slack side oscillation is the chain can hit and/or drag itself across the bottom of the chain guide, transmitting a cyclical force into the chain guide mount, thru the mounting bolts, and then into the bracket & bracket welds.

Look at the wear on the inner link plates. They are all ground flat on one side. This would be the outward facing chain surface that slides across the chain guide and swingarm. The nylon sliders in the chain guide are worn badly, indicating the chain has been wearing on both the top and bottom of the guide for quite some time. As the nylon material starts to wear thin, the dampening capacity is reduced thus more of the chains force is being passed into the chain guide bracket. Doesn't seem like much but you have to think of the extra force over millions of cycles (review your S-N curves)

The primary drive sprocket is severely worn. The teeth have hooking wear as well as side wear. Hooking wear is a result of running a sprocket for too long, or running it with a chain that is elongated. As the tooth wear increases, the contact pitch line increases as well, which causes a more abrupt collision between the link pin and inner bushing as the outer roller slams into each tooth face upon entry into either the driver or driven sprocket. Again, this is another condition that can be a catalyst for chain oscillation.

The rear axle is running pretty far to the rear position, this increases the span distance between the driver and driven sprockets. With a rough running chain, the slack side oscillation amplitude will increase.

When the chain is oscillating on the slack side under load, as it comes into the chain guide it could be snapped down and forced to align as it transitions across the slider and into the first tooth engagement. There is little doubt in my mind that are some bending forces going on in that scenario. After thousands (if not millions) of cycles, the welds eventually begin to fatigue, and a high force load, even under normal operating condition, can rip the brackets off.

The Op originally stated he hit a large rock and it ripped the bracket off, but then later recanted saying he couldn't verify he actually hit a rock. He said the failure happened just before a jump, so he was likely on the throttle hard and I could see where if the chain oscillated just right under load to hit the chain guide with enough force to finally overcome the last bit of strength the welds had left in them. Maybe the rider did in fact hit a rock or something hard, but I still would argue the welds were fatigued by that point anyways.


Look at this photo of Anderson's bike as he is loading the chain up a jump face. Look at how much the slack side of the chain is oscillating. You can see where it first enters the chain guide, it is starting to pull it back up and into alignment for entry into the driven sprocket.




I know the Op doesn't ride like JA21, but the chain is still going to behave similar. Imagine that same photo but with all the worn components shown above. Does that help explain how much of a beating the chain guides and brackets are taking with worn components?

My diagnosis may not be popular because it shows the true root cause to be lack of chain, sprocket, and slider maintenance, but I feel that I am correct on this.
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DynoDan22
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10/9/2020 9:08am
My theory: the aft, third bolt was missing (you can see the black witness mark on the aft swing arm tab from the chain guide rubbing with no bolt). Under decel, the lower chain run tightens up and stresses/torques the chain guide as the aft bolt was missing. With that aft bolt missing, you've lost 50% or more of the beam strength of the chain guide. It loads only the front two bolt and the forward welded-on tab. The weld was fatigued and eventually gave up the ghost. You are lucky you weren't seriously hurt. Not to stand on a soap box but checking fasteners is part of the game and can prevent a large percentage of failures. Off soapbox now...
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TeamGreen
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10/9/2020 9:49am Edited Date/Time 10/9/2020 9:50am
DynoDan22 wrote:
My theory: the aft, third bolt was missing (you can see the black witness mark on the aft swing arm tab from the chain guide rubbing...
My theory: the aft, third bolt was missing (you can see the black witness mark on the aft swing arm tab from the chain guide rubbing with no bolt). Under decel, the lower chain run tightens up and stresses/torques the chain guide as the aft bolt was missing. With that aft bolt missing, you've lost 50% or more of the beam strength of the chain guide. It loads only the front two bolt and the forward welded-on tab. The weld was fatigued and eventually gave up the ghost. You are lucky you weren't seriously hurt. Not to stand on a soap box but checking fasteners is part of the game and can prevent a large percentage of failures. Off soapbox now...
Interesting.

When people argue against this point, I'll ask...

"What is that 3rd bolt and tab back there for? Why did the engineers put it there?"

DynoDan22
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10/9/2020 9:53am
The aft third bolt puts the bolts/tabs in shear under decel. Take out the aft bolt and it puts the chain guide into cantilever and will stress the forward tab welds. The third aft bolt does little in side load but is there for beam strength.
10/9/2020 9:55am Edited Date/Time 10/9/2020 9:56am
TeamGreen wrote:
Interesting.

When people argue against this point, I'll ask...

"What is that 3rd bolt and tab back there for? Why did the engineers put it there?"

To prevent the whole assembly from acting as a lever when force is applied to it, which is exactly what occurred.
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Zycki11
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10/9/2020 10:51am
Timo_2824 wrote:
#maintainyourshit
Don’t tell me what to do with my shit. It’s Yamahas fault and clearly a defect. I will be suing.
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mxtech1
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10/9/2020 12:04pm
TeamGreen wrote:
Interesting.

When people argue against this point, I'll ask...

"What is that 3rd bolt and tab back there for? Why did the engineers put it there?"

I'd argue a few good test riders figured out many years ago the position of the 3rd bolt can be strategically placed along the swingarm to help with dampening and/or feel when the chain runs on the bottom guide.
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