Info Needed, creating a new product

RTW
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Edited Date/Time 6/14/2017 8:40am
Hello everyone, my first time posting here and I hope I'm in the correct forum.

I am looking for information or for someone to point me in the right direction, since forums bring the moto community together I thought it best to start here.

I am in the beginning phases of planning and prototyping a new product I hope will enhance the experience of moto performance and ownership. The biggest problem I am having is replication. I don't want to have to buy, measure, and replicate the individual parts for each year of each manufacturer as this is not cost or time efficient. I know there is a way to purchase schematics from OEM's, I just don't know how to go about it or where to get started. For example, I know for graphic companies they can purchase the diagrams of the plastics so they can make graphics that fit. Can anyone help with how to go about this? (Not for graphics, more performance). I have exhausted the google bar out on various boolean search attempts trying to figure this out. Any (constructive) input is appreciated, Thanks!
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disbanded
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6/13/2017 12:47pm
Oh, you want constructive input? That leaves me out!
Katoomey
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6/13/2017 1:03pm Edited Date/Time 6/13/2017 1:11pm
so, you want o make hard parts or what?

you have to have some kind of background...you sound like you have no clue what you are talking about.

people make parts in a variety of methods, but moslty through actually physically having the motorcycles to fit and prototype the parts.

what kind of things do you want to make. how high of quality are they, whats your background, what are the resources available to you?

and no manufacture has technical renderings and other information readily available for distribution. graphic vectors and things like that are no big deal, but Honda isn't going to send you over cad renderings and "blueprints" cause you ask nicely.

A lot of guys in the industry (automotive as well) beg, borrow and steal (or pay) bikes to use for prototyping. the lower level exhaust guys are always scrambling to find the new years models so they can get their stuff up for sale quickly.

Acidreamer
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6/13/2017 1:32pm Edited Date/Time 6/13/2017 1:33pm
I can tell you working in engineering for the automotive industry, you will not get any cad models or prints without being an oem supplier. the process for toyota to send us their headliner cad model for example is very in depth and goes through a lot of people before it gets to me. You have to reverse engineer those parts and then do r&d to make them good before mass production begins. thats easier than getting sensitive info from honda for example. Trust me.
motosurf
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6/13/2017 1:50pm
So what the hell are you making? Lol

The Shop

blusmbl
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6/13/2017 1:55pm
Acidreamer wrote:
I can tell you working in engineering for the automotive industry, you will not get any cad models or prints without being an oem supplier. the...
I can tell you working in engineering for the automotive industry, you will not get any cad models or prints without being an oem supplier. the process for toyota to send us their headliner cad model for example is very in depth and goes through a lot of people before it gets to me. You have to reverse engineer those parts and then do r&d to make them good before mass production begins. thats easier than getting sensitive info from honda for example. Trust me.
x2. You're probably going to have to buy complete bikes or borrow them from willing participants and reverse engineer dimensions. Sometimes aftermarket suppliers will get help from OEM's by getting access to preproduction bikes to determine parts fitment but I wouldn't expect any of them to give you cad data.

I have seen aftermarket companies offer free parts for use of a new model bike or car to check fitment of components like exhausts or intake kits.
Katoomey
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6/13/2017 1:55pm
Acidreamer wrote:
I can tell you working in engineering for the automotive industry, you will not get any cad models or prints without being an oem supplier. the...
I can tell you working in engineering for the automotive industry, you will not get any cad models or prints without being an oem supplier. the process for toyota to send us their headliner cad model for example is very in depth and goes through a lot of people before it gets to me. You have to reverse engineer those parts and then do r&d to make them good before mass production begins. thats easier than getting sensitive info from honda for example. Trust me.
you just said the same exact thing I said.

RTW
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6/13/2017 1:55pm
I realize my information was very vague. The product pertains to air filters.

I certainly did not think Honda or any OEM would "hand over" blueprints. However I feel like there is a way to purchase information?

I have talked to a guy I race with locally that makes graphics. He mentioned that he can get vectors (thank you for the word I was looking for) for all of the bikes, unfortunately I do not have contact with him anymore. I know performance is a totally different aspect and companies will not give up trade secrets, however I was curious if that applies to all categories of performance. For example, when Twin air, Uni, No-toil are designing a new air filter, do they acquire (beg,borrow, pay) the new models so they can measure the every aspect of the air box, or can they pay the factories for the information? Maybe they do but how am I to know unless the question gets asked. I could assume, but that makes me an ass, especially if there is an easier way available.

My background is in fabrication, mostly from a automotive level however my passion is in moto. I also have access to cad although I have limited experience with it (but know people who do have experience). My moto experience is of a personal nature, I have very little ties with the "industry" but do have ties from a local standpoint. I know shop owners, local pros, and track makers. Testing the product is my issue that I will tackle further down the road.

Resources is another topic and something I have already researched. I have sourced materials. What is needed now is a blueprint to make a prototype. I have taken measurements from bikes that I own, but obviously lack those that I do not own. I don't expect ANYTHING for free, side from perhaps some advice or direction.

Innovation can come from anywhere, it just may take a stronger effort to succeed.
Manco
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6/13/2017 2:23pm
RTW wrote:
I realize my information was very vague. The product pertains to air filters. I certainly did not think Honda or any OEM would "hand over" blueprints...
I realize my information was very vague. The product pertains to air filters.

I certainly did not think Honda or any OEM would "hand over" blueprints. However I feel like there is a way to purchase information?

I have talked to a guy I race with locally that makes graphics. He mentioned that he can get vectors (thank you for the word I was looking for) for all of the bikes, unfortunately I do not have contact with him anymore. I know performance is a totally different aspect and companies will not give up trade secrets, however I was curious if that applies to all categories of performance. For example, when Twin air, Uni, No-toil are designing a new air filter, do they acquire (beg,borrow, pay) the new models so they can measure the every aspect of the air box, or can they pay the factories for the information? Maybe they do but how am I to know unless the question gets asked. I could assume, but that makes me an ass, especially if there is an easier way available.

My background is in fabrication, mostly from a automotive level however my passion is in moto. I also have access to cad although I have limited experience with it (but know people who do have experience). My moto experience is of a personal nature, I have very little ties with the "industry" but do have ties from a local standpoint. I know shop owners, local pros, and track makers. Testing the product is my issue that I will tackle further down the road.

Resources is another topic and something I have already researched. I have sourced materials. What is needed now is a blueprint to make a prototype. I have taken measurements from bikes that I own, but obviously lack those that I do not own. I don't expect ANYTHING for free, side from perhaps some advice or direction.

Innovation can come from anywhere, it just may take a stronger effort to succeed.
You aren't gonna find anything out there cad, schematic, 3d model or whatever for air filters let alone any other part. If you are serious about starting an air filter company go through the years of bikes you want to to sell for. Cross reference part numbers to find what years of what bikes used what filter. Buy one OEM filter for every design the OEMs used. Copy them. You could also by all the aftermarket models and copy them as well though more then likely you'd be better off copying OEM products. No sense in copying a copy. If you are serious I hardly think it would be too large of an investment to buy a hundred air filters for research and development.
6/13/2017 2:37pm
Honestly even if you could find the information you want I'm not sure how well you'd be able to make it fit and work without being able to bolt it on and physically test it.

If you have a local track maybe try to find some people willing to let you use their bike to get measurements and or test the product when you get to that stage. Who knows maybe a few guys with different bikes would be willing to help you out.
RTW
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6/13/2017 2:49pm
Manco wrote:
You aren't gonna find anything out there cad, schematic, 3d model or whatever for air filters let alone any other part. If you are serious about...
You aren't gonna find anything out there cad, schematic, 3d model or whatever for air filters let alone any other part. If you are serious about starting an air filter company go through the years of bikes you want to to sell for. Cross reference part numbers to find what years of what bikes used what filter. Buy one OEM filter for every design the OEMs used. Copy them. You could also by all the aftermarket models and copy them as well though more then likely you'd be better off copying OEM products. No sense in copying a copy. If you are serious I hardly think it would be too large of an investment to buy a hundred air filters for research and development.
Thank you, This was the original plan, and yes like you said as far as an investment it is small on the grand scheme of things. I was hoping there would be an easier and more efficient way however it seems, by unanimous decision, the only way is to do it long hand. I had thought about using a CMM to obtain dimensions, however it is a bit costly. Research continues, hopefully with enough perseverance, effort, and a bit of luck the product will come to fruition.

The idea was to get some better direction, and I can say that I think the direction is more clear now. I appreciate all the information from everyone.

I was able to find an older thread with a similar question that had some useful information as well. http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/Engineering-Data-for-Dirt… for those that are interested.
Falcon
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6/13/2017 3:01pm
I will speak from the standpoint of the OEM fhat I work for:

If you are manufacturing a product that I'll be selling in my accessory catalog, I can get the CAD data for you. It's a long process involving a non-disclosure agreement, but possible.
If you just want my company's designs for your own betterment, sorry.
It's probably like that everywhre, regardless of whether or not you are willing to pay.
Dtat720
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6/13/2017 3:09pm
The vast majority of aftermarket companies have a network of customers and employees for some that have or buy the bikes used for r&d. P3 carbon is a good example. They supply factory ktm off road with carbon parts. But they use customer bikes for prototyping. Even though they build factory team parts, they still have to use customer bikes to develop products.
seth505
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6/13/2017 3:11pm
Acidreamer wrote:
I can tell you working in engineering for the automotive industry, you will not get any cad models or prints without being an oem supplier. the...
I can tell you working in engineering for the automotive industry, you will not get any cad models or prints without being an oem supplier. the process for toyota to send us their headliner cad model for example is very in depth and goes through a lot of people before it gets to me. You have to reverse engineer those parts and then do r&d to make them good before mass production begins. thats easier than getting sensitive info from honda for example. Trust me.
You just get an NDA (and ya it's usually not quick)
MR. X
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6/13/2017 5:07pm
Without knowing exactly what you are making ,is it possible to make one for all vehicles ? Different adapters possibly?
Mini Elsinore
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6/13/2017 5:28pm
Read those NDA's very carefully, as no two are exactly alike and they will not hesitate to enforce them.
jeffro503
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6/13/2017 5:34pm
Acidreamer wrote:
I can tell you working in engineering for the automotive industry, you will not get any cad models or prints without being an oem supplier. the...
I can tell you working in engineering for the automotive industry, you will not get any cad models or prints without being an oem supplier. the process for toyota to send us their headliner cad model for example is very in depth and goes through a lot of people before it gets to me. You have to reverse engineer those parts and then do r&d to make them good before mass production begins. thats easier than getting sensitive info from honda for example. Trust me.
Katoomey wrote:
you just said the same exact thing I said.

Except he didn't come across like an Asshole. But carry on...sheesh.
Rockinar
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6/13/2017 5:49pm Edited Date/Time 6/13/2017 5:51pm
No OEM is going to sell you their drawings. This is your only option.




jeffro503
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6/13/2017 6:01pm
Rockinar wrote:
No OEM is going to sell you their drawings. This is your only option. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/06/13/200083/s1200_Screen_Shot_2017_06_13_at_7.27.42_PM.jpg[/img]
No OEM is going to sell you their drawings. This is your only option.




Is that a hammer or a set of vice grips? And can I torque sprocket bolts with it?
markit
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6/13/2017 6:21pm
You could buy the OEM filter cage? Or and box? May be a bit expensive but that's business. Luckily you would only have five or so models to deal with.
MR. X
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6/13/2017 7:01pm
jeffro503 wrote:
Is that a hammer or a set of vice grips? And can I torque sprocket bolts with it?
Those are to keep the fan from turning the pages on your magazine or news paper when you walk away from your work area to fill up your coffee cup.
moto314
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6/13/2017 8:21pm
I would scan the air-box and the cage with a CMM arm and design your own filter. You are not going to get useful data from just measuring the filter. That being said I know there are filter companies out there that hand make samples and molds.
jeffro503
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6/13/2017 8:36pm
jeffro503 wrote:
Is that a hammer or a set of vice grips? And can I torque sprocket bolts with it?
MR. X wrote:
Those are to keep the fan from turning the pages on your magazine or news paper when you walk away from your work area to fill...
Those are to keep the fan from turning the pages on your magazine or news paper when you walk away from your work area to fill up your coffee cup.
Ahh got ya! For a second there , I almost thought it was one of them tire pressure gage thingy's....seeing that it has a digital readout. Even possibly a calculator of some type , that could also be used as a weapon for someone trying to steal your home work?
pmshortt2
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6/14/2017 4:47am
jeffro503 wrote:
Is that a hammer or a set of vice grips? And can I torque sprocket bolts with it?
MR. X wrote:
Those are to keep the fan from turning the pages on your magazine or news paper when you walk away from your work area to fill...
Those are to keep the fan from turning the pages on your magazine or news paper when you walk away from your work area to fill up your coffee cup.
jeffro503 wrote:
Ahh got ya! For a second there , I almost thought it was one of them tire pressure gage thingy's....seeing that it has a digital readout...
Ahh got ya! For a second there , I almost thought it was one of them tire pressure gage thingy's....seeing that it has a digital readout. Even possibly a calculator of some type , that could also be used as a weapon for someone trying to steal your home work?
It was made to measure the size of ones noggin, then they can get the corrrect size Vox or bargain brand helmet. And yes I said Vox not Fox. Laughing
Acidreamer
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6/14/2017 5:39am
Acidreamer wrote:
I can tell you working in engineering for the automotive industry, you will not get any cad models or prints without being an oem supplier. the...
I can tell you working in engineering for the automotive industry, you will not get any cad models or prints without being an oem supplier. the process for toyota to send us their headliner cad model for example is very in depth and goes through a lot of people before it gets to me. You have to reverse engineer those parts and then do r&d to make them good before mass production begins. thats easier than getting sensitive info from honda for example. Trust me.
Katoomey wrote:
you just said the same exact thing I said.

jeffro503 wrote:
Except he didn't come across like an Asshole. But carry on...sheesh.
Hey its just another person backing up what you said. I have real world experience in this and offered it up. I dont care if someone else said it before lol. Just trying to help the guy.
dboivin
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6/14/2017 5:58am
just fyi, those vectors you buy for graphics were made by someone who painstakingly mapped it out by hand from the individual bike model....someone made a business out of it. Smile then sell them vectors as there is a giant market/need for it. highly doubt oem gave up their plastic CAD's (maybe to that company making vectors if they went thru the nda process).
K-dubbb
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6/14/2017 5:59am
Katoomey wrote:
so, you want o make hard parts or what? you have to have some kind of background...you sound like you have no clue what you are...
so, you want o make hard parts or what?

you have to have some kind of background...you sound like you have no clue what you are talking about.

people make parts in a variety of methods, but moslty through actually physically having the motorcycles to fit and prototype the parts.

what kind of things do you want to make. how high of quality are they, whats your background, what are the resources available to you?

and no manufacture has technical renderings and other information readily available for distribution. graphic vectors and things like that are no big deal, but Honda isn't going to send you over cad renderings and "blueprints" cause you ask nicely.

A lot of guys in the industry (automotive as well) beg, borrow and steal (or pay) bikes to use for prototyping. the lower level exhaust guys are always scrambling to find the new years models so they can get their stuff up for sale quickly.

so, you want to be an asshole or what?

you have to have some kind of background...you sound like you have no clue what you are talking about.

You must work for someone else.....and not have the grit to move something from idea into fruition.

Anybody can do anything if they want it bad enough, just because you tend to 'settle' because things appear too hard or complicated, doesn't mean our friend RTW has to as well.

There is always a way - the question is, is it worth it based on the needs of the market - and maybe find the ying-to-your-yang, if this industry isn't your strength, (stick to yours) and find someone who has the skills and resources you don't - but the shared passion or vision.
philG
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6/14/2017 6:53am
We have loads of stuff for reverse engineering .... reverse engineering is stealing by another name... take a thing, pull it apart , scan it, create CAD, make it.

Nobody will give you the info
BobbyLight
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6/14/2017 7:33am
Could just buy a faro arm if you really wanted to go for it.
TriRacer27
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6/14/2017 7:53am
I'm just curious, what do you see as the big opportunity in filters? Better performance, cheaper price, something else?

I just don't see the business case.
JM485
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6/14/2017 8:21am
Where is everyone seeing that he wants to make filters, I don't see that anywhere in any of his posts?

For the OP, it probably depends on what you are wanting to make. If it's going to be a load bearing part, then you're also going to need to know the material and figure out loads that will be felt by the piece, or risk the prototype breaking when you test it. But like others have said, I would think your best and cheapest option is to measure the parts from individual bikes, maybe offer some sort of small incentive to get people to allow you to measure theirs or something like that. Whatever you choose good luck, and hope all works out for you.

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