In a few years, most MX tracks will have...

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11/28/2011 7:32 PM

...older 125 & 250 2 strokes. The decline of the industry as a whole reflects the shrinking market.

Yes, there will be the wealthy few buying new 4 strokes and they will win races.

But the roots of the sport will be the weekend guys racing and rebuilding their 2 strokes.

The industry is too short sighted to be proactive in responding to this consumer shift.

We'll go back to relatively inexpensive racing while the few race the latest 4 strokes with fuel injection and traction control.

But the guys having the most fun will be those who picked up an old 2 stroke that they can ride for a fraction of the cost.

A few of those brave soles will choose to race while the majority will choose to "practice" or ride on private land.

My industry is reacting to a shrinking market and is providing products to maintain market share. From a MX perspective, it seems only KTM is willing to support the direction of the sport for the masses rather than only top level pro support.

4 strokes will be for the wealthy while used 2 strokes will support the weekend warriors either on the track or on private land.

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2019 KTM 350 XC-F
Daytona Dirt Riders (DDR)
Floridatrailriders.org (FTR)

11/28/2011 7:42 PM

I totally agree. At that point there will be two ways to get rich in motocross:

1) safety equipment - better helmets and spinal protection
2) Two strokes that perform like an early 2000 Japanese bike and are reasonably reliable. If somehow they can maintain a $5K price point, I think they would really take off!

If both of these items could be accomplished (meaning a safer and more cost effective sport) we could really start to grow the amateur and local scene again!

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11/28/2011 7:45 PM

I just re-joined the 2 stroke family again. I am so pumped about riding a smoker again. I picked up a 2002 RM 250 last weekend that has maybe 10hrs on it for 1500$, suspension already done, pro circuit pipe and silencer. BRAAAAAP.

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Go Hawks!

11/28/2011 7:45 PM

I stopped by the new KTM Dealer here localy and I was shocked (shat my pants actually) at the price of a new bike..... 2011 350SX for 9899... thats over 10 grand out the door. Have you fools lost your minds... I dont want to be a street bike only weenie but... I can get BMW S 1000RR for around 17000 grand... thats like 10 times the bike of a 350SX!!!!

I want to get back into riding on the dirt but until I find that 2005 - 2007 KX250... Im holding out!

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Don’t piss off the old people - the older they get the less “life in prison” is a deterrent for them!

2020.5 KTM 450 SXF FE
2006 KX250

11/28/2011 7:47 PM

True for me, I've moved off the 4t and on to a used 2t, slowed down on the racing in favor for weekends at practice tracks and just fun rides with friends. The cost to race and compete at a high level locally even is what did me in. I'm sure it's the same for others too.

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11/28/2011 7:49 PM

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I don't trust any "Joined Date" later than 2012

11/28/2011 7:50 PM
Edited Date/Time: 11/28/2011 7:55 PM

Dude, why do you read and reply if you don't agree? In almost every 2 stroke thread, you respond in a similar manner.

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2019 KTM 350 XC-F
Daytona Dirt Riders (DDR)
Floridatrailriders.org (FTR)

11/28/2011 8:03 PM

To the doom and gloomers:
I know our industry is SUPPOSEDLY declining and tracks are closing, However in the ten years I have been in the industry here in So. Cal. I have never seen so many tracks with-in a short distance. Many of them open 5-7 days a week and all of them very crowded every weekend. Also record amounts of race entries at races like World Vet, Day in The Dirt, and World minis. And do you really think the investers of the new Elsinore mx park are just throwing over a half million dollars into the place without doing their reserch??

Im so tired of hearing how expensive 4 strokes are. Im sure air cooled, twin shock, drum brakes are less expensive too. I love my 4 stroke. Its like having a single cylinder Indy car motor. I also think a 4 stroke sounds BAD ASS and not like a chain saw.

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11/28/2011 8:10 PM

mxtinter wrote:

To the doom and gloomers:
I know our industry is SUPPOSEDLY declining and tracks are closing, However in the ten years I have ...more

mxtinter,

I can understand your So Cal market, but that is not enough to support the industry. The benefits you receive from being local to the industry are not replicated throughout the country. Unless the OEMs are only concerned about CA, then you haven't seen the true impact of the climbing costs. I travel extensively and it is my passion to check out the local MX scene and I can tell you that CA must be the exception.

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2019 KTM 350 XC-F
Daytona Dirt Riders (DDR)
Floridatrailriders.org (FTR)

11/28/2011 8:12 PM

Whenever I see an open-ended headline like yours, I always try and guess what the finish will be before I click on it.

I thought yours was going to be ".......a row of coin-operated power outlets for recharging your e-mxer."

H

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11/28/2011 8:15 PM

Hman144 wrote:

Whenever I see an open-ended headline like yours, I always try and guess what the finish will be before I click on it.

I ...more

I hope it doesn't come to that!

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2019 KTM 350 XC-F
Daytona Dirt Riders (DDR)
Floridatrailriders.org (FTR)

11/28/2011 8:17 PM

^^^^and this is why KTM is gaining market share, because they are paying attention and listening to the consumers.
As they start selling more and more 2 strokes, the other oems and promoters will be following too.

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Instagram - @MxCulture

11/28/2011 8:18 PM

Actually, you are off. The American market has seen declining bike sales, but the ROW is growing. Declining sales doesn't mean the industry is shrinking, it just means that we have 9% unemployment and tight credit. Both equate to lower bikes sales, not a shrinking market. Big difference, but thanks for playing. Once credit loosens up again (and it will in due time) and lower employment, along with consumer confidence picking up, things will be back.

But, when I see gear that costs $265 for a set, this suggets they are able to get these prices...Just like $9K bikes. If there were no buyers, the market wouldn't support these price points. Fundamental stuff, son.

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11/28/2011 8:19 PM

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11/28/2011 8:22 PM

bvm111 wrote:

I stopped by the new KTM Dealer here localy and I was shocked (shat my pants actually) at the price of a new bike..... 2011 ...more

What? MSRP for a 2012 350 SX-F is $8499 (not that this is a cheap price). That dealer is crazy.

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11/28/2011 8:27 PM
Edited Date/Time: 11/28/2011 8:28 PM

orangecrush wrote:

Actually, you are off. The American market has seen declining bike sales, but the ROW is growing. Declining sales doesn't mean ...more

Orange,

You must be from a diffent school than I or most financial groups. For you to believe the market is not shrinking is akin to placing your head in the sand.

Where does an OEM plan to gain market share in a market that has declined by over 50%?

Market is the total sales of a given product. What was the number of untis sold in 1980 vs 2011?

If the number of units sold is less then you have a shrinking market which should not be compared to market share.

Market share illustrates units sold vs the total number of units. Thus, who is gaining in market share in a shrinking market? The answer is KTM. They will continue to capitalize on this shrinking market by producing products that gains share. The Asian OEMs are not doing this.

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2019 KTM 350 XC-F
Daytona Dirt Riders (DDR)
Floridatrailriders.org (FTR)

11/28/2011 8:36 PM

SoCal is a different beast and there are wealthy enclaves still there..the rest of this country is going down the shitter, FAST!!

Matthes...where art tho??


People aren't anti 4-stroke...they are anti-RAPE. If 4-strokes were more economical to own I wouldnt shed a tear over 2-strokes because they'd make the sport better and more available to people.

America is @ 30% unemployment..who the fuck can afford to drop 10K on a bike thats just going to get trashed in the dirt??

The MFG's need to figure out how to make the 4-strokes have the longevity of streetbikes or lower costs significantly to maintain them.

I've seen f4i's with a ton of track miles on them keep tickng and ticking..mean while a 250F is a $8000 time bomb.

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KEEP WORKING, MILLIONS ON WELFARE DEPEND ON YOU!

11/28/2011 8:39 PM

Hando wrote:

SoCal is a different beast and there are wealthy enclaves still there..the rest of this country is going down the shitter, ...more

GREAT post! ^^^^

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2019 KTM 350 XC-F
Daytona Dirt Riders (DDR)
Floridatrailriders.org (FTR)

11/28/2011 9:00 PM
Edited Date/Time: 11/28/2011 9:01 PM

Hman144 wrote:

Whenever I see an open-ended headline like yours, I always try and guess what the finish will be before I click on it.

I ...more

Thats what i was thinking too.

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be another brick in the wall, or get clipped
[LINK TO IMAGE]

11/28/2011 9:48 PM

Hando wrote:

SoCal is a different beast and there are wealthy enclaves still there..the rest of this country is going down the shitter, ...more

The US is not at 30% unemployment. It's more like 10%, still high.

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11/28/2011 9:49 PM
Edited Date/Time: 11/28/2011 9:56 PM

Hando wrote:

SoCal is a different beast and there are wealthy enclaves still there..the rest of this country is going down the shitter, ...more

.......

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11/28/2011 9:54 PM

orangecrush wrote:

Actually, you are off. The American market has seen declining bike sales, but the ROW is growing. Declining sales doesn't mean ...more

EastFlorida wrote:

Orange,

You must be from a diffent school than I or most financial groups. For you to believe the market is not shrinking is ...more

LOL.

Show me marketshare numbers then we can talk. The American market is not indicative of emerging markets oh wise one. In fact, just to show you how off-balance you are, if your company was smart enough to understand basic economics, they'd figure out that America isn't the best place to be placing their bets in the shorterm, and would have adjusted their product mix to support selling in growth markets. Yes my friend, growth markets. I've seen the data mind you, so I'm basing my comments on facts, not rhetoric.

What you have failed miserably to comprehend, using your one-dimension train of thought, is there ARE growth plays outside the US and this is why KTM is now primarily owned by an Indian company - so they can meet the growth in EMEA. America will lag until credit loosens again. Are you gonna tell me that automotive companies should stop selling cars and replace their product mix with mopeds next? BTW: We are in an economic trough. Look it up. What does this tell you? Demand for luxury items will still exist I hate to break it to you, but to tell me that America is in a decline, tells me nothing about the key drivers. So if I were a betting man, I should be putting all my money into 2 stroke technology? LOL. And total sales for KTM, while they have seen increased sales, is still very small looking at the TAM. Geez dude.

Lastly, speaking of price elasticity of demand, less units are sold as price goes up and the inverse is also true. But to add credibility to the story, unemployment in the early 80's was averaging roughly 7%, then rose a few years later. We are at 9+ and a kid can't get a loan to finance a bike for anything. So that means we should all buy 2 strokes?

One last thought for your pipe tonight. Had credit not been so crimped, there would be more bikes sold as most don't have cash to buy them - regardless if it's 1980 or 2011. Credit makes markets work. Free the lending standards, and watch the YoY growth story play out. If you really think the market for bikes is eroding, it's not due to demand, rather, tight credit. Much different perspective than your doom story that you want to believe. You clearly don't understand global markets.

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11/28/2011 10:27 PM

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11/28/2011 10:45 PM

Short and to the point........

I ride a 450 and like it a lot. I want a second bike , a 250 2 stroke.

I would think a few years ago , the 2 stroke movement was a joke to a lot of people.....but now , not so much. The crowd for wanting 2 strokes is getting bigger by the day. I see them growing at the local tracks as well.

Keep on , keepin' on!

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And there goes Jeffro. One of God's own prototypes. A super high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

Pimpin' Ho's , Rollin' fatty's......drinkin' beers , beers , beers!! ~ Ja

11/29/2011 2:51 AM

East coast, if you wanna crush some Orange, I'm with you, sounds like one of those financial retards who irons a seam into his Levis.

That is all.

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11/29/2011 4:54 AM

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11/29/2011 4:59 AM

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11/29/2011 5:43 AM

Big Daddy - thanks for the link...

Orange..... for you

2009 - 2010 Motorcycle Sales Totals
2009 Totals 2010 Totals Unit Change % Change
Dual Sport 27,210 23,531 -3,679 -13.5%
Off Road 105,524 80,962 -24,562 -23.3%

2008 - 2009 Motorcycle Sales Totals
2008 Totals 2009 Totals Unit Change % Change
Dual Sport 45,250 27,210 -18,993 -39.9%
Off Road 146,779 105,524 -41,676 -28.1%

The credit crunch supports my position. Who can afford a 9-10K bike? I'm guess you can but the can'ts out number the cans...

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2019 KTM 350 XC-F
Daytona Dirt Riders (DDR)
Floridatrailriders.org (FTR)

11/29/2011 6:05 AM

2012 KTM 150 sx - msrp $6499.00

2012 KTM 250sx - msrp $6899.00

2012 Yamaha YZ 250 - msrp $7150.00

2012 Yamaha YZ 250F - msrp $7290.00

2012 Suzuki RMZ 250 - msrp $7399.00

New bikes aren't cheap.....2 stroke or 4 stroke .....period.

Before you guys all jump on the "those 4 stroke pigs cost a fortune to maintain" crap let me say this.
My son has ridden a 2007 RMZ 250F for the last 2 years, we have spent maybe $800-900 on maintenance including clutch replacement, tires and valve adjustment.

The 2007 YZ 125 he rode for one year before......almost $1900....that bike blew up if the wind was to strong.
He DNF'd more motos on that YZ in one year than the previous 4 years of racing.

My point is some bikes run great and some are dogs....no matter if they are 2 or 4 stroke.

As to original point of this thread;
All the used 2 strokes in the world circulating the tracks of the world make no difference to the marketing of new bikes.

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11/29/2011 6:15 AM

jndmx wrote:

2012 KTM 150 sx - msrp $6499.00

2012 KTM 250sx - msrp $6899.00

2012 Yamaha YZ 250 - msrp $7150.00

2012 Yamaha YZ 250F - ...more

Don, i think that yz125 should have been completely warenteed by the guy that sold it to you, o ya dont push your luck with that rmz just be thankful thats its lasted this long

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