Ignorance is no excuse or is it ?

500guy
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500guy
Edited Date/Time 6/27/2014 5:52am
So your saying there's a chance?

There are countless laws. Literally.

Maybe not in the mathematical sense – it is technically possible to count the laws in existence, but based on a colloquial and general use of the term “countless” it is not really feasible for someone to count every law. Just this year, 40,000 laws were passed and are set to go into effect. On the other hand, we rarely hear news about laws being repealed.

At this rate, if it is a monumental task to even count the laws, certainly, one can never know all the laws. And then – even if one knows generally of many laws, it is further impossible to understand the laws with requisite detail so as to ensure compliance.

http://www.copblock.org/12341/actually-yes-ignorance-of-the-law-is-an-e…
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peelout
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peelout 6/24/2014 1:36pm
6/24/2014 1:36pm Edited Date/Time 6/24/2014 1:36pm
non-moto

unless you're referring to the WADA/JS7 ordeal.

in that case, ignorance most definitely is not an excuse.
500guy
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500guy 6/24/2014 1:42pm
6/24/2014 1:42pm Edited Date/Time 6/24/2014 1:42pm
peelout wrote:
non-moto

unless you're referring to the WADA/JS7 ordeal.

in that case, ignorance most definitely is not an excuse.
I was just looking at the old saying Ignorance of the Law is no excuse and ran across this.

I found it funny because of the spin that's on it .

part of your licensing agreement in Pro racing is that you know the rules and will abide by them.

There is no excuse because someone signed saying they knew and would follow the rules and spinning it as a cheater or rule breaker makes no difference.
FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 6/24/2014 1:53pm
6/24/2014 1:53pm
Just be specific to the anti doping code says without a lot of arm waving generalizations. Under the code, ignorance is not an excuse, but it may be a mitigating factor, and the entity fashioning the penalty has a lot of discretion to fashion a penalty appropriate to the facts.

For anyone willing to reserve judgment until the facts come out fully, it may not be as cut and dry as the penalty advocates assume.
F150Motocrosser 6/24/2014 1:54pm
6/24/2014 1:54pm
There are SO many people guilty of ignorance here besides JS7.. Obviously, the onus is on him to start with.. but Yosh/Suz isn't a rag tag privateer outfit that just "overlooked" a new rule... We're talking about a multimillion dollar professional race team here. Once this whole WADA deal came about, you mean to tell me there was ZERO system of checks and balances or somebody to ENSURE that the rider that the brand and sponsors spend literally millions of dollars on is complying with every ounce of fine print; or at least the freaking LIST OF BANNED SUBSTANCES?? Un, believable..

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Big Lenny
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Big Lenny 6/24/2014 2:00pm
6/24/2014 2:00pm
FreshTopEnd wrote:
Just be specific to the anti doping code says without a lot of arm waving generalizations. Under the code, ignorance is not an excuse, but it...
Just be specific to the anti doping code says without a lot of arm waving generalizations. Under the code, ignorance is not an excuse, but it may be a mitigating factor, and the entity fashioning the penalty has a lot of discretion to fashion a penalty appropriate to the facts.

For anyone willing to reserve judgment until the facts come out fully, it may not be as cut and dry as the penalty advocates assume.
FTE is it possible for him to have some leverage because the way it was leaked?..
500guy
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500guy 6/24/2014 2:08pm
6/24/2014 2:08pm
FreshTopEnd wrote:
Just be specific to the anti doping code says without a lot of arm waving generalizations. Under the code, ignorance is not an excuse, but it...
Just be specific to the anti doping code says without a lot of arm waving generalizations. Under the code, ignorance is not an excuse, but it may be a mitigating factor, and the entity fashioning the penalty has a lot of discretion to fashion a penalty appropriate to the facts.

For anyone willing to reserve judgment until the facts come out fully, it may not be as cut and dry as the penalty advocates assume.
One thing that seems like an even worse problem will be the results of the Thunder Valley Tests.

if it's positive it's a violation

if it's negative then there never was a outstanding health issue.
FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 6/24/2014 2:14pm
6/24/2014 2:14pm
FreshTopEnd wrote:
Just be specific to the anti doping code says without a lot of arm waving generalizations. Under the code, ignorance is not an excuse, but it...
Just be specific to the anti doping code says without a lot of arm waving generalizations. Under the code, ignorance is not an excuse, but it may be a mitigating factor, and the entity fashioning the penalty has a lot of discretion to fashion a penalty appropriate to the facts.

For anyone willing to reserve judgment until the facts come out fully, it may not be as cut and dry as the penalty advocates assume.
500guy wrote:
One thing that seems like an even worse problem will be the results of the Thunder Valley Tests. if it's positive it's a violation if it's...
One thing that seems like an even worse problem will be the results of the Thunder Valley Tests.

if it's positive it's a violation

if it's negative then there never was a outstanding health issue.
The assumption built into that could be more fragile than you think.
FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 6/24/2014 2:16pm
6/24/2014 2:16pm
FreshTopEnd wrote:
Just be specific to the anti doping code says without a lot of arm waving generalizations. Under the code, ignorance is not an excuse, but it...
Just be specific to the anti doping code says without a lot of arm waving generalizations. Under the code, ignorance is not an excuse, but it may be a mitigating factor, and the entity fashioning the penalty has a lot of discretion to fashion a penalty appropriate to the facts.

For anyone willing to reserve judgment until the facts come out fully, it may not be as cut and dry as the penalty advocates assume.
Big Lenny wrote:
FTE is it possible for him to have some leverage because the way it was leaked?..
I don't have any opinion on that other than from what I understand there's more to the story than we all know yet and that it's hard for me to imagine Stewart having any more leverage than he has just being who he is in the sport.
Racer92
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Racer92 6/24/2014 2:18pm
6/24/2014 2:18pm
I think its badass we have FTE here to give legal opinions, even when he as little info to go on.

TripleFive 6/24/2014 2:19pm
6/24/2014 2:19pm Edited Date/Time 6/24/2014 2:20pm
500guy wrote:
One thing that seems like an even worse problem will be the results of the Thunder Valley Tests. if it's positive it's a violation if it's...
One thing that seems like an even worse problem will be the results of the Thunder Valley Tests.

if it's positive it's a violation

if it's negative then there never was a outstanding health issue.
If he has an USADA TUE we have to keep in mind that we would never know anything about his Lakewood results,
gsxrcr28
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gsxrcr28 6/24/2014 2:22pm
6/24/2014 2:22pm
Racer92 wrote:
I think its badass we have FTE here to give legal opinions, even when he as little info to go on.

Agreed.
FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 6/24/2014 2:30pm
6/24/2014 2:30pm
Racer92 wrote:
I think its badass we have FTE here to give legal opinions, even when he as little info to go on.

My only legal opinion here is that the outcome is more uncertain than people are assuming without all the facts.
jasen.bougher 6/24/2014 2:36pm
6/24/2014 2:36pm
F150Motocrosser wrote:
There are SO many people guilty of ignorance here besides JS7.. Obviously, the onus is on him to start with.. but Yosh/Suz isn't a rag tag...
There are SO many people guilty of ignorance here besides JS7.. Obviously, the onus is on him to start with.. but Yosh/Suz isn't a rag tag privateer outfit that just "overlooked" a new rule... We're talking about a multimillion dollar professional race team here. Once this whole WADA deal came about, you mean to tell me there was ZERO system of checks and balances or somebody to ENSURE that the rider that the brand and sponsors spend literally millions of dollars on is complying with every ounce of fine print; or at least the freaking LIST OF BANNED SUBSTANCES?? Un, believable..
That's his trainers job and who this should all fall on.
smeg
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smeg 6/24/2014 2:44pm
6/24/2014 2:44pm
FTE asked this in another thread but I don't know if you saw it or not. I understand this is not a court of law but I would like your legal opinion about something.

Considering James is a a multimillion dollar business with a plethora of staff to assist him in knowing the rules and or obtaining a therapeutic use exemption. Could a good prosecutorial attorney argue that those facts in and of itself would imply intent to deceive?

And in the event that the answer is yes then WOULD a good prosecutorial attorney use that strategy?
xnationalwrench 6/24/2014 2:46pm
6/24/2014 2:46pm
One question that still bothers me; Whose law that everyone refers to? I mean the test was done in Washington State, the AMA is based in Ohio, Feld is in Minnesota (I think) so you have 3 different states that each have different laws, then you have the FIM that's base in Italy (again I think) so now you have international laws to content with.
smeg
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smeg 6/24/2014 2:46pm
6/24/2014 2:46pm
By the way I am not saying it would be the crux of his argument but rather something to bring up to try to influence a jury.
FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 6/24/2014 3:06pm
6/24/2014 3:06pm
smeg wrote:
FTE asked this in another thread but I don't know if you saw it or not. I understand this is not a court of law but...
FTE asked this in another thread but I don't know if you saw it or not. I understand this is not a court of law but I would like your legal opinion about something.

Considering James is a a multimillion dollar business with a plethora of staff to assist him in knowing the rules and or obtaining a therapeutic use exemption. Could a good prosecutorial attorney argue that those facts in and of itself would imply intent to deceive?

And in the event that the answer is yes then WOULD a good prosecutorial attorney use that strategy?
Borderline. By itself I don't think it would carry the burden of proof under any standard, IMO. But I'm sure someone would try to make the argument if they had a hard on for pursuing the harshest penalty.
Tumblin
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Tumblin 6/24/2014 3:08pm
6/24/2014 3:08pm
500guy wrote:
One thing that seems like an even worse problem will be the results of the Thunder Valley Tests. if it's positive it's a violation if it's...
One thing that seems like an even worse problem will be the results of the Thunder Valley Tests.

if it's positive it's a violation

if it's negative then there never was a outstanding health issue.
Maybe not.
From what I've read here in Vitalpedia - Adderall may have a negative effect on the added endurance challenge of the outdoor Nats. Along with a shorter half life, Stew may choose to drop off the med. coming into that Thunder Valley elevation and 30 +2 challenge. That may be reasonable.

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FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 6/24/2014 3:08pm
6/24/2014 3:08pm
smeg wrote:
By the way I am not saying it would be the crux of his argument but rather something to bring up to try to influence a...
By the way I am not saying it would be the crux of his argument but rather something to bring up to try to influence a jury.
And there's no jury here, which is a completely different beast with a very low threshold in terms if the arguments one might try.
smeg
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smeg 6/24/2014 3:09pm
6/24/2014 3:09pm
Cool, thanks for your opinion.
mx317
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mx317 6/24/2014 3:12pm
6/24/2014 3:12pm
Have laws been broken when he had a prescription, or just rules of the organization?
TripleFive 6/24/2014 3:17pm
6/24/2014 3:17pm
mx317 wrote:
Have laws been broken when he had a prescription, or just rules of the organization?
If he had a prescription then he likely broke no criminal law.
Zracer
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Zracer 6/24/2014 4:41pm
6/24/2014 4:41pm
@ Vital it sure seems to be.
robkinuk
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robkinuk 6/27/2014 3:00am
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xnationalwrench wrote:
One question that still bothers me; Whose law that everyone refers to? I mean the test was done in Washington State, the AMA is based in...
One question that still bothers me; Whose law that everyone refers to? I mean the test was done in Washington State, the AMA is based in Ohio, Feld is in Minnesota (I think) so you have 3 different states that each have different laws, then you have the FIM that's base in Italy (again I think) so now you have international laws to content with.
FIM is based in Switzerland.

http://www.fim-live.com/fr/fim/siege-fim/
kevingent55
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kevingent55 6/27/2014 5:38am
6/27/2014 5:38am
At some point there will be so many laws that we will all be a criminal of some sort.
Ardfarkl
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Ardfarkl 6/27/2014 5:52am
6/27/2014 5:52am
kevingent55 wrote:
At some point there will be so many laws that we will all be a criminal of some sort.
TRUTH!

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