"If you could change SX's bikes..."

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4/26/2021 2:02 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/26/2021 2:06 PM

ShawdowGlen wrote:

Sensitive much? The thread is a "hypothetical".... if YOU could change SX bikes....get it?

However, it seems most ...more

Complaining the sport is too unsafe/outgrown via 4T then quoting "if you fuck it up you die", makes total sense.

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4/26/2021 2:17 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/26/2021 2:18 PM

450 and 250...both classes allow 2 stroke or 4 stroke up to the cc limit (250 2 stroke or 4 stroke legal in 250 class)...and leaded fuel is legal. Also, its not a bike change, but I'd eliminate the east coast/west coast divisions. Both classes, 17 rounds.

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4/26/2021 2:21 PM

ShawdowGlen wrote:

In a perfect world...

Go back to the greatest era....2 strokes only.

125cc class
250cc class

Do away with the stupid start ...more

navalseabee wrote:

While we're at it, let's go back to air cooled engines, twin shocks and drum brakes....

How long are you guys going to hang ...more

ShawdowGlen wrote:

Sensitive much? The thread is a "hypothetical".... if YOU could change SX bikes....get it?

However, it seems most ...more

When DV said “You die” I’m pretty sure he was talking about the tracks. In the late 90’s and early 2000’s the landings were as steep and sharp as the takeoff’s. Now all the landings are more round and you have more room for error. On a 450 you have all the power and traction and it’s easy to jump a section if you mess up when you can come up short.
I still don’t understand why we had 85 foot quads 125’s were jumping in the two stroke error but now we have the same 65 foot triple that a 450 can jump in 1st gear.

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4/26/2021 5:58 PM

arebnac wrote:

We all know 2 strokes are not coming back (except for things like RedBull's Straight Rhythm or maybe in a Monster's Cup, who ...more

ShawdowGlen wrote:

You nailed it.... most fans of the sport prefer the 2-smokes and everything else you said.


Electrics? Every video Ive seen ...more

I dunno if there were true most people would ride 2 strokes at the track. But they are outnumbered like 4 to 1

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4/27/2021 6:35 AM

150cc and 250cc. Whatever Stroke

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4/27/2021 6:47 AM

arebnac wrote:

We all know 2 strokes are not coming back (except for things like RedBull's Straight Rhythm or maybe in a Monster's Cup, who ...more

ShawdowGlen wrote:

You nailed it.... most fans of the sport prefer the 2-smokes and everything else you said.


Electrics? Every video Ive seen ...more

soggy wrote:

I dunno if there were true most people would ride 2 strokes at the track. But they are outnumbered like 4 to 1

that would be probably be down to the fact that 4 strokes are easier to ride fast and they're also the "current thing", the majority of people want what's current. You get a handful of people who buck a trend or ride for the fun and not the laptimes and you'll find them on 2 strokes more often than not.
In the UK there's been a huge resurgence of 2 strokes hitting the tracks in the younger age ranges (on adult sized bikes) i'd say at least a third, if not more, are 2 strokes. Not to mention the gain in popularity EVO racing has got. It's a positive thing to see

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4/28/2021 1:24 PM

Small class- 30 hp

Big class- 40 hp

/endthread

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Die Antwoord

4/28/2021 1:51 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/28/2021 3:01 PM

gt80rider wrote:

Small class- 30 hp

Big class- 40 hp

/endthread

Completely unenforcable unless they went to spec ECU, which would itself be a huge can of worms.

Code to unlock the 55hp map: green-blue-blue-green. One more blue returns it to 30 hp.
Photo

And the clueless AMA is going to somehow dyno and tune every single bike? And privateers and factory alike are going to dyno and limit their bike for the exact conditions at every race?

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4/28/2021 2:24 PM

I would say like many others, 125 and 250cc classes. The bikes are so damn fast and dare I say it, easy to ride (for these top level guys) that we really don't see much out and out racing nowadays. Bikes have evolved, stricter training regimes and nutrition etc has evolved but the tracks have largely stayed the same. Not saying we need bigger jumps or obstacles because I don't think that at all, we need bikes that aren't as easy to ride!!

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4/28/2021 9:35 PM

Claiming rule on the engines that allows for reliability based tuning, but no F1 style mods. Everything else is fair game (chassis setup= safety, in Supercross)

Although I'm not sure how pumped up the 450's are, and how much this would help the 'problem' in that class.

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4/30/2021 1:33 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/30/2021 1:33 AM

A few thoughts:

Just like Nascar and F1 do, every few years we need to control the speed. When the cars get too fast, they change the max displacement.

Changing max displacement allows EVERYONE to innovate, and make money.
If we went with stock engines, ProCircuit, FMF, etc... wouldn't have products or services to sell.
Just set displacement, then allow all players to innovate and find the extra performance.

When the speeds become too great again, lower the displacement again, just like F1 and Nascar.
In MX, SX, we've done the opposite. As the 125 and 250's got faster and faster, we up'd the engine size. WTH?

Changing the rules at the pro level should precede amateur races by 3-5 years.
We can't all buy new bikes in the same year. Give the amateur riders time to make the change.

The 125 and 250 2 stroke classes were the right amount of power. Why would we want to create a 150 class?

Since the 2 strokes at this point in time are still faster than their 4 stroke counterparts, I say the classes should be:
If they're not, then set the classes as 125 and 250 2T and 4T.

I propose:
125 2-stroke/175 4-stroke
250 2-stroke/300 4-stroke.

Innovate as much as you'd like. Port it, pipe it, create bad ass suspension.

The racing would be better, and injuries less severe.
Let's face it, crashing at 50MPH is going to do more damage than crashing at 45MPH.
There will also be fewer crashes with the lower displacement because higher speed requires faster reactions.

The upside for the manufacturers is that everyone will need new bikes over the coming few years.
$$ BIKE SALES $$

I'm leaving out details on keeping things fair and allowing a transition time in the amateur ranks.
It can be done. I've published how to transition in Vital in the past.

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4/30/2021 2:09 AM

Radical wrote:

A few thoughts:

Just like Nascar and F1 do, every few years we need to control the speed. When the cars get too fast, they ...more

Why not just use equal displacement? Current 250 four strokes are just as fast as 250 two strokes. EMX250 in europe has had equal displacement rule for years now and it has clearly shown that 250 two strokes do not have advantage over 250 four strokes anymore. It would much cheaper for manufacturers too because their current models would be eligible for the class.

As for the 125 class I wouldn't mind if it was two stroke only class but I'm sure that with current four stroke technology advancements it wouldn't be possible to create competitive four stroke 125

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4/30/2021 2:13 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/30/2021 2:21 AM

Radical wrote:

A few thoughts:

Just like Nascar and F1 do, every few years we need to control the speed. When the cars get too fast, they ...more

It's not quite accurate regarding F1. Speed is generally controlled via tyres and technical regulations that affect downforce levels. It's not just a 'too fast' thing either. The 2009 regulations were created to make the cars easier to follow each other (and thus slower) BUT in 2017 the cars got a big performance boost with new aero regs. This was partly a reaction to people saying the cars were too slow. They're now as fast as they've ever been, which will once agian change next year with new aero regs to fix overtaking (yes, again)

In terms of power the modern PUs are near 1000hp. That's an increase over the previous V8 motors that were used pre-2014. The V10s hovered around the 1000hp mark though at the end of their period in F1. The capacity is not an absolute measurement because we have to factor in turbo charging, hybrid systems etc....In 1987 BMW M12 was a 1500cc turbo charged monster. The naturally aspirated engines that came in from 89 were less powerful but were 3.5lt. iirc

Sometimes power is limited via regulation. In the 80s they were 1400hp in quali form and I think boost ended up being limited for the 88 season iirc. not sure if this was a cost or safety thing. I

It's true essence the rules dramatically limit the possibility of the cars being 'too fast' because we could have cars that are massively faster in theory. But it's a complicated picture. That's a long way to say F1 isn't the best example. The regulations are changed and manipulated so much its not a good thing to reference whereas MX is vastly more stable as a racing format. Short answer is easy - go back to 2-stroke.

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4/30/2021 2:38 AM

450 is too much, but changing the classes won't change how everyone races and they'll all hit the same obstacles they're all really close in speed and skill these days unlike 10-15 years ago. The real issue is the tracks.

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4/30/2021 3:06 AM

fanger wrote:

450 is too much, but changing the classes won't change how everyone races and they'll all hit the same obstacles they're all ...more

Spot on. Technology is always going to progress. The real question is what are Felds plans to progress the tracks to keep up? Probably less dirt and more monster trucks is their answer.

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4/30/2021 5:38 AM

Build the tracks up. Have some obsatcles made up that are stackable and transportable to the next venue. You but on ground, add a few feet of dirt and you get by with same amount of dirt. Even a few pipes at the base of the finish line jump would save a few dumptrucks of dirt

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4/30/2021 6:21 AM

Radical wrote:

A few thoughts:

Just like Nascar and F1 do, every few years we need to control the speed. When the cars get too fast, they ...more

Lower displacement costs money, lots and lots of money. When the horsepower is down, it costs big bucks to find an advantage. 250f's cost way more to maintain at the highest level than a 450. Having an over abundance of power equals lower operating costs.

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Tomac and/or Anderson for 2020.....

4/30/2021 6:34 AM

BobPA wrote:

Lower displacement costs money, lots and lots of money. When the horsepower is down, it costs big bucks to find an advantage. ...more

Larger displacement also ads more weight and inertia which causes bikes to handle badly in extreme situations which causes more injuries.

Everytime I ride my 1986 CR 125 it strikes to me how much heavier current bike's are compared to that. It's so much easier to get out of trouble with that bike when things go south

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4/30/2021 7:13 AM

Radical wrote:

A few thoughts:

Just like Nascar and F1 do, every few years we need to control the speed. When the cars get too fast, they ...more

The largest difference between MX and F1/Nascar however is that I cannot go buy and F1 car or a NASCAR.

Look above in this thread at all the dudes saying "leave open bikes for men" and shit like that. You think that MX dudes are gonna take the AMA/manufacturers going "you can't handle a 450, all 350s now?"

Yeah fucking right.

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4/30/2021 7:28 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/30/2021 7:46 AM

What are the goals here?

Track maintenance?

Safety?

Close competition?

Developing riders?

Lower racing costs?

Involve more manufacturer's?

Develop better bikes?

Save the planet?

Much of what the industry "assumes" to be common knowledge has no basis in facts or research.

Off road is booming, and classes are not based on bike size.

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4/30/2021 8:08 AM

Let me put it this way. Is racing better with heavier and more powerful bike's? In my opinion it's not. The 125 class has in my opinion always produced the best racing

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4/30/2021 8:14 AM

JMX82 wrote:

Let me put it this way. Is racing better with heavier and more powerful bike's? In my opinion it's not. The 125 class has in ...more

I'm totally down with a 125 class. Only as an entry level class though. This thread is about the top 2 classes, and I don't think it's appropriate to advance riders from 125's to big 4t's. As an age limited 3rd class HELL YES! Kind of like Supermini's only not mini.

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5/1/2021 11:43 AM

Every 5/6yrs allow manufacturers to run a works bike for a season...

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5/1/2021 1:35 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

What are the goals here?

Track maintenance?

Safety?

Close competition?

Developing riders?

Lower racing costs?

Involve ...more

The goal was just for me to know what you guys would choose to do if you could change SX's bikes =P
But hey! Great and fun opinions and thoughts so far, eh?

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5/1/2021 1:37 PM

fanger wrote:

450 is too much, but changing the classes won't change how everyone races and they'll all hit the same obstacles they're all ...more

True. But building "bigger" and harder tracks for the 450 could be terrible for 250's privateers, right? Theres always a balance needed here.

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5/1/2021 1:49 PM
Edited Date/Time: 5/1/2021 1:55 PM

I'm just curious, how many of you actually own a current (two years old or less) 450cc motocross motorcycle and ride or race it it regularly ( at least an hour a week) on a local motocross track?

I ask this because possibly the folks who have not owned or ridden one lately may be missing out on how awesome and easy to ride these bikes are.

EFI, an endless selection of mapping, superior suspension and lighter weight down lower has really changed these motorcycles from when they first came out as carbureted ,heavy, poor handling kick start beasts 18 or so years ago.

Personally, I think a smaller bike displacement is actually harder to ride fast than a 450. I also own a 350 and a 125, and I always get better lap times on most tracks on the 450 with less effort, so I can ride harder for longer.

Seat bouncing long jumps right out of tight corners is so much easier with more torque.

so go on and downvote me, but IMO anyone who says that 450's are ill suited for supercross may want to swing a leg over a new model....



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