If Honda entered the 50cc class ......

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9/23/2017 3:36 AM

on what size would it be? 75? 100?? It would have to be a four stroke in keeping with their mantra, but could they make it competative with the KTM but at or under the cost of the KTM50SX, which is no cheap thing?

The Honda NCF50 single OHC scooter engine, upright and chain driven is a great starting point perhaps with it's compact EFI system and reliable and cheap to run 2 valve layout at 4.9HP versus the KTM 8 point something. A little more opened up for close course could easily see it at 6HP. Perhaps a little more CC and a bit extra tuning would get it up to around 8 pretty easy but yes there would be a weight penalty.
[LINK TO IMAGE]
Honda Fuel Injection System for Small Engines

Another entry level scenario would be just to keep the NCF50 EFI 4.9HP based engine, with a chassis similar to what KTM had a few years back with conventional damper rod Marzocchi forks, disc front and drum brake rear. A reliable and capable entry level 50cc that kids could ride all day for months on end yet still attack a jump without fear of snapping the frame or breaking wrists/ankles.could be upgraded with a kit that added say 75cc and a more aggressive cam and map, a rear disc kit, upgraded shock etc to be somewhat competative with the KTM50SX

Just interested in peoples thoughts. I've a 7yo who races BMX but also rides a CRF50 out to 88cc with stock exhaust as it's quiet for across from our house on vacant land where he rides it and super reliable and cheap to run/maintain compared to the KTM50, it's just a pile of shit handling machine for any kid trying to push themselves and this machine base. Options are limited and I got him off the PW50 before he broke it in two. He's also not quite tall enough for the next size machines. A 50SX senior would be ideal chassis wise. Maybe KTM can come up with a lower spec, decent handling, all day riding low maintenance and reliable but decent power output bike to fill this gap like they had with their mini trail back a few years? If I put my money on any company filling the void, it would have to be KTM.

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9/23/2017 3:48 AM

I think the kids here, riding Honda 50's, have the Honda "Monkey" motor.
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"Nothing happens until something moves"

9/23/2017 4:27 AM

How about the water cooled, fuel injected, electric started 50cc engine from Zoomer/Ruckus?
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#1
KX125

9/23/2017 5:55 AM

What, no love for the CB50R?

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9/23/2017 6:17 AM

It just shows you politics in our sport... ? No Honda product in the entry class has reason behind it, it's not money. It's rules and competition, no one wants to drop a competitive fourstroke in any mini class 50-85cc, Hondas 150 has so much room to progress but is put at a disadvantage by rules therefor suppressed, if they were worried about this problem they would create a class for highly modified Honda 50cc motorcycles for kids and create rules to bound a great class but they don't, why? Probably ktm. It's not because the products to create this a fast honda isn't there, it's not because parents don't have money to build it, it's. It's very weird a company like Honda hasn't pushed for it either and it's probably the reason they never pushed a fourstroke in other mini classes. To me it's crazy we don't have mini riders on fourstroke tech in our day and age, in more then 3 classes, no competitive Honda, just ktm crushing it n kawi with a bunch of talent.

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9/23/2017 6:23 AM

newmann wrote:

What, no love for the CB50R?

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A Japanese guy living in Holland imported a few years ago brand new Honda Dream's 50cc
(directly from the production line anniversary rerun or something) they sold like hot cakes tho
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9/23/2017 6:24 AM

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9/23/2017 6:26 AM

steed 2.0 wrote: Photo

brings back some great memories .. had a MTX8 and MBX8 , didnt like standard 50 modding

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the funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything it's to late to stop reading it

9/23/2017 6:29 AM

$700... I'm buying 2 for my twins 6th birthday next month.

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Slightly off topic, but I'm not spending $4k for a 50sx...

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9/23/2017 6:32 AM
Edited Date/Time: 9/23/2017 6:39 AM

RichardLoots wrote:

brings back some great memories .. had a MTX8 and MBX8 , didnt like standard 50 modding

Photo www.honda-m-shop.com
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9/23/2017 6:35 AM

slipdog wrote:

$700... I'm buying 2 for my twins 6th birthday next month.

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Slightly off topic, but I'm not spending $4k for a 50sx...

Any videos of these in action?

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9/23/2017 7:53 AM

slipdog wrote:

$700... I'm buying 2 for my twins 6th birthday next month.

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Slightly off topic, but I'm not spending $4k for a 50sx...

Ohhhh I've been looking at this solution. Even thinking about porning the house and becoming a distributor. Fuck the world, dodgey stators and water pump seals, non entaties and the like. LiPo and lippo is all the same to me brah
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9/23/2017 7:56 AM

HenryA wrote:

How about the water cooled, fuel injected, electric started 50cc engine from Zoomer/Ruckus?
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Read a little on this engine config too. Tech is there for a competative 4 mini

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9/23/2017 8:07 AM

Jeff alessi wrote:

It just shows you politics in our sport... ? No Honda product in the entry class has reason behind it, it's not money. It's rules and competition, no one wants to drop a competitive fourstroke in any mini class 50-85cc, Hondas 150 has so much room to progress but is put at a disadvantage by rules therefor suppressed, if they were worried about this problem they would create a class for highly modified Honda 50cc motorcycles for kids and create rules to bound a great class but they don't, why? Probably ktm. It's not because the products to create this a fast honda isn't there, it's not because parents don't have money to build it, it's. It's very weird a company like Honda hasn't pushed for it either and it's probably the reason they never pushed a fourstroke in other mini classes. To me it's crazy we don't have mini riders on fourstroke tech in our day and age, in more then 3 classes, no competitive Honda, just ktm crushing it n kawi with a bunch of talent.

Actually, in my opinion, it's the other way round Jeff. It's a well established fact that racing governing bodies create class formulas and manufacturers build bikes around the established rules. Honda's attempt to disrupt this situation by building the 150R was certainly brave but failed because the other manufactures didn't follow their lead (for once). Honda has the capacity to build a competitive 50, 65, or 85cc two stroke that would run with the Austrian bikes but choose not to. Honda as a company has never embraced two strokes and only begrudgingly built them in the past because it was the only way they could be competitive. The politics that prevent them competing in the mini classes are all internal.

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9/23/2017 8:56 AM

Why in the hell would anybody think that having the 50cc classes follow the path that the 125 and 250 classes have taken is a good idea.

Our sport doest need another high strung, high maintenance "entry level" machine.

It needs something a little updated from the pw 50.
A little stouter, for heavier and taller riders. With bulletproof engines, clutches, and suspension.
It needs to be at most, 7 hp, and it needs sanctioning and promoting organizations that will enforce strict stock rules.

Putting kids as young as 4 on machines with 9+ hp is idiocy.

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9/23/2017 9:05 AM

The easiest thing for Honda would be to make a shaft driven 50cc and then they can compete in that class...

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Indecision is a choice

9/23/2017 9:09 AM
Edited Date/Time: 9/23/2017 9:10 AM

slipdog wrote:

$700... I'm buying 2 for my twins 6th birthday next month.

Photo

Slightly off topic, but I'm not spending $4k for a 50sx...

Slipdog,
What are these and where do you find them?
Thanks.

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9/23/2017 9:25 AM
Edited Date/Time: 9/23/2017 9:47 AM

Jeff alessi wrote:

It just shows you politics in our sport... ? No Honda product in the entry class has reason behind it, it's not money. It's rules and competition, no one wants to drop a competitive fourstroke in any mini class 50-85cc, Hondas 150 has so much room to progress but is put at a disadvantage by rules therefor suppressed, if they were worried about this problem they would create a class for highly modified Honda 50cc motorcycles for kids and create rules to bound a great class but they don't, why? Probably ktm. It's not because the products to create this a fast honda isn't there, it's not because parents don't have money to build it, it's. It's very weird a company like Honda hasn't pushed for it either and it's probably the reason they never pushed a fourstroke in other mini classes. To me it's crazy we don't have mini riders on fourstroke tech in our day and age, in more then 3 classes, no competitive Honda, just ktm crushing it n kawi with a bunch of talent.

leighracer wrote:

Actually, in my opinion, it's the other way round Jeff. It's a well established fact that racing governing bodies create class formulas and manufacturers build bikes around the established rules. Honda's attempt to disrupt this situation by building the 150R was certainly brave but failed because the other manufactures didn't follow their lead (for once). Honda has the capacity to build a competitive 50, 65, or 85cc two stroke that would run with the Austrian bikes but choose not to. Honda as a company has never embraced two strokes and only begrudgingly built them in the past because it was the only way they could be competitive. The politics that prevent them competing in the mini classes are all internal.

Ehhh. My theory. Flawed as it may be. Id rather sell a bunch of 4 stroke customers parts all day long, long term than a bunch of 2 stroke customers. Factories drove the demand of the 4 stroke. Make one fast enough to beat the 2 stroke while AMA follows suit to allow for the displacement handicap and you just created a highly profitable change in direction. So much so that it pushes the limits, i.e. 20 year olds parting out their blown up 250fs on ebay. Not everyone can play the manufacturers high priced parts/service game. Step down from a 250f to the small bikes, and parents, not 20 year olds, start saying no thanks well go fishing. Besides, if a 5 year old blown up 250f isnt worth fixing, a 150 or smaller surely isnt. Half the repair bill is labor and its often a 1500 to 2500 dollar ticket so the 150 and smaller is worth less than that afterr 2 years. As for the hopped up 50cc four stroke for the mxer, what is the margin for the dealer selling one off the showroom floor? How many units will get sold? They know roughly how many of the general purpose 50cc bikes they can sell to their general entry level offroad audience at a certain price point. They'd rather see the kid on the crf50 grow up and ride a dual purpose or street bike so they can make money on him. I think the manufacturers wanted to go the way of the 4 stroke as they saw how much people were spending to fix their ninjas and gsxrs at the shop. It was just a matter of getting the AMA to make a rule to accommodate it and the AMA listened to yamy. Doug Henry is the best damn guniue pig you could put on one for the race season r/d. Hard to find them tougher than Doug.
Basically the manufacturers hate to see my boy in the plus 50 class at Lorrettas getting 3rd in moto one on a 14 yr old yz125. Not part of their plan.
I would imagine there is a point where if unit sales dropped enough, they would have to start pushing two strokes again, but it would have to be way down there to the point where the mad money 4 stroke parts/service game was drying up. Take a long time for that to happen.
Im surprised yami still has a yz125 and yz 250.

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9/23/2017 10:38 AM

Slim Pickens wrote:

Slipdog,
What are these and where do you find them?
Thanks.

Chinese KTM 50 knock off with an electric motor.

http://www.ssrmotorsports.com/store/electric/srz800.php

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9/23/2017 1:09 PM

These look cool. In florida too. http://50ccmx.com/phone/index.html

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9/23/2017 1:13 PM

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9/23/2017 1:14 PM

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9/23/2017 2:38 PM

Jeff alessi wrote:

It just shows you politics in our sport... ? No Honda product in the entry class has reason behind it, it's not money. It's rules and competition, no one wants to drop a competitive fourstroke in any mini class 50-85cc, Hondas 150 has so much room to progress but is put at a disadvantage by rules therefor suppressed, if they were worried about this problem they would create a class for highly modified Honda 50cc motorcycles for kids and create rules to bound a great class but they don't, why? Probably ktm. It's not because the products to create this a fast honda isn't there, it's not because parents don't have money to build it, it's. It's very weird a company like Honda hasn't pushed for it either and it's probably the reason they never pushed a fourstroke in other mini classes. To me it's crazy we don't have mini riders on fourstroke tech in our day and age, in more then 3 classes, no competitive Honda, just ktm crushing it n kawi with a bunch of talent.

leighracer wrote:

Actually, in my opinion, it's the other way round Jeff. It's a well established fact that racing governing bodies create class formulas and manufacturers build bikes around the established rules. Honda's attempt to disrupt this situation by building the 150R was certainly brave but failed because the other manufactures didn't follow their lead (for once). Honda has the capacity to build a competitive 50, 65, or 85cc two stroke that would run with the Austrian bikes but choose not to. Honda as a company has never embraced two strokes and only begrudgingly built them in the past because it was the only way they could be competitive. The politics that prevent them competing in the mini classes are all internal.

Yes, that's the way I see it too.

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I blame Honda.

9/23/2017 3:03 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/23/2017 3:08 PM

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Put 10" wheels on one of these. We used to do that in Australia, if there were parity rules back then it would have made a great 50cc class bike.
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9/23/2017 3:18 PM

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Here's a shot of one. No problems with ground clearance. Good fun.

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9/23/2017 4:37 PM

bf884 wrote:

These look cool. In florida too. http://50ccmx.com/phone/index.html

I looked at getting one of these Chineese CRF50 copies through the shop I was working at that sold these type of thing on the side and when I was assembling it I got to see just how cheesy the components are. Especially the electrics. On top of that the shock had about half inch of undampened travel at the top of the stroke, just as all of the others in the shop did. Throw in the depreciation of these Chineese bikes v's the PW I ended up buying for $700 ( and sold for the same after only spending $50 bridgestone race tyre, $25 front guard and genuine $5 air filter over a year and a half), not worth it. Plus it weighed a ton more than the PW. Suspension was probably the only plus side of the thing being a little better.

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9/23/2017 4:42 PM

Dropbear wrote: Photo

Put 10" wheels on one of these. We used to do that in Australia, if there were parity rules back then it would have made a great 50cc class bike.

The price of those things is about the same as new KTM 50 these days.

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9/23/2017 4:51 PM

Dropbear wrote: Photo

Put 10" wheels on one of these. We used to do that in Australia, if there were parity rules back then it would have made a great 50cc class bike.

Underground wrote:

The price of those things is about the same as new KTM 50 these days.

Yeah, but they sound so good!

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9/23/2017 5:21 PM

Still not really suitable for a PW sized beginner rider

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9/23/2017 6:41 PM

bf884 wrote:

These look cool. In florida too. http://50ccmx.com/phone/index.html

Underground wrote:

I looked at getting one of these Chineese CRF50 copies through the shop I was working at that sold these type of thing on the side and when I was assembling it I got to see just how cheesy the components are. Especially the electrics. On top of that the shock had about half inch of undampened travel at the top of the stroke, just as all of the others in the shop did. Throw in the depreciation of these Chineese bikes v's the PW I ended up buying for $700 ( and sold for the same after only spending $50 bridgestone race tyre, $25 front guard and genuine $5 air filter over a year and a half), not worth it. Plus it weighed a ton more than the PW. Suspension was probably the only plus side of the thing being a little better.

Well they say its USA made in Florida. Without a doubt it looks chinese. But maybe they will stick behind their bikes. For the price i would be willing to try one.

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