I need input from anyone involved with a moto track and finances

Agfracing
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Jamestown, NY US
Edited Date/Time 9/18/2014 9:45pm
I searched and read a lot on this topic before i posted this.
I am on the forums a lot but very rarely post.

I have been doing research on starting an MX track. Im 22 years old but have been running my own screen printing business for three years and am very business minded. I have been considering the idea of opening a Moto track near me. There is one track but it is rarely maintained and the only reason myself or any others really ride it, is because there is such a lack of tracks int he general area that are open regularly each week.

Now. I have several questions on the topic of track ownership and operation. Upfront i would obtain the land and the necessary machinery and equipment needed to build and groom the track. I know there is maintenance involved with keep the machinery up and running and it would be pretty pricey dependent on the age of the equipment.

As for the following does anybody who owns, manages, or operates a track have any input:

What is the cost to insure a track?
What is the cost if any to become associated with the AMA for sanctioned races etc.
If you had to guess a general cost to open up the track for practice for one day what would you say it costs? Ball park price including getting the track ready (fuel, watering, etc) and staffing it with the necessary staff for the day.

I know a track generally won't be in the positive for the first several years. But i feel like this is something i would love to do in the next 1-2 years.
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huck
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9/18/2014 5:56am
The best way to have a million dollars and an MX track...start with 2 million....
Squid-mom
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Mc Coy, TX US
9/18/2014 6:08am
I have done a little research on the matter and I think the biggest deterent for us never going through with it was the insurance. If you plan to go ahead with it, make sure it is not owned in your name personally.
SKlein
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9/18/2014 6:34am
huck wrote:
The best way to have a million dollars and an MX track...start with 2 million....
or 3 million if he happens to have it laying around.

The Shop

jhansen510
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9/18/2014 6:39am
Very business minded and track owner very rarely go hand in hand! I would advise you that this is a bad idea in today's day and age!
IWreckALot
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Fort Worth, TX US
9/18/2014 6:42am
Squid-mom wrote:
I have done a little research on the matter and I think the biggest deterent for us never going through with it was the insurance. If...
I have done a little research on the matter and I think the biggest deterent for us never going through with it was the insurance. If you plan to go ahead with it, make sure it is not owned in your name personally.
How do most tracks get around the personal liability? Do they set the property up under a property entity and then "lease" the property to a second track entity which puts all the liability on the track entity. And then, keep track entity and the lease entity bank accounts pretty low and just pay out almost all that you take in? I think I heard that's how they keep ambulance chasers deterred.
jhansen510
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9/18/2014 6:45am
Setup track as a corporation and it becomes it's own entity.
ternst12
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Buffalo, NY US
9/18/2014 6:53am
Don't forget zoning and all that. Make sure your neighbors or anyone within earshot of the track won't complain. Your profile says you are in Jamestown. Between the wnyma, wnyracing, mapleshade and pymatuning there are a ton of tracks within 3 hrs of you. Talk to those promoters and see.
Cygnus
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Hanover, CO US
9/18/2014 7:10am
It's not something I'd do without another business that is flourishing to keep it afloat. If I didn't live at my track it wouldn't ever make it. Maybe try and work with the existing track and try and get it up to snuff and see how it goes. I have a couple ways to get around insurance but don't feel like sharing them in a public forum anymore. You can email me at tommysanfilippo@hotmail.com and I will tell ya how I do it and make sure not to lose my ass.
CCMX
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Shreveport, LA US
9/18/2014 7:14am
It's a bad idea even if we were in a pre Obama economy.

You won't have to intentionally keep the bank balance low, it will do that on its own.
Mr. Ted
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9/18/2014 7:16am
Permitting of the land is the first obstacle, assuming you have a property in mind and you can afford to purchase it. You also need to look at future encroachment of housing. It would suck to develop a great track only to lose it in a few years due to NIMBY folks who move next to the track. Liability will always be there, the best you can do is try to protect yourself appropriately via an LLC/S corp and strong waivers. Beyond that I would consider leasing equipment, as opposed to buying for a couple of reasons. Some leases will include maintenance and repair (so no cash coming out of your pocket if the dozer breaks down) and if you have to get out, it is easier to let go of a lease than try to sell used equipment, Outside of that it is finding a good accessible location and trying to develop a good business model. Best of luck, we all need more tracks!
Hal_396
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Cedar Creek, TX US
9/18/2014 7:39am
Go buy 25 acres of unrestricted land, and a skid loader, dig a pond that retains rainfall and install an irrigation system. Build your own track and don't let anyone use it. You will be much happier down the road.
86honda
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Sickofit, AR US
9/18/2014 7:44am Edited Date/Time 9/18/2014 7:45am
The best deal is to sale year round memberships. This gives your riders all the access they want. Sale advertising at the track. Offer free advertising to anyone like equipment suppliers. Find two or three guys that will help you for free memberships and free race fee's (some body with a new rider that is all jacked up on the sport is best).
Stay positive! Have posted rules and stick to them. You Never race on race days. Have a woman run things. Pay your flaggers and anyone operating your snack stand enough to keep them faithful. Mowing grass and weed eating is a pain buddy. Find young riders that need gate and race fee's and put them to work. Clean toilets are a must if you want wives GF's or chicks in general to come and watch. Keep the place family friendly. Drinking at your hauler only! Foul language and fighting will get you in the NOT family friendly mode.
KEEP THE TRACK FRIENDLY TO OLDER AND YOUNGER RIDERS! People got to go to work Monday. You have to have a dependable water truck! Using local water is very costly.
Everyone who sets foot on the property must sign a Hold Blameless release! Even your best buddy. His insurance will look to collect from the track.
It takes up every afternoon and race week is a busy week. Communication is a priority when weather gets iffy. As far as money goes, brother you have to do this for the love of the sport and you a place to ride. I wish I had youth on my side like you. I wish you all the success and look forward to an invite. Best to you.
Racerx930
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Stillwater, OK US
9/18/2014 8:01am
Well I was broke when I opened my track so the risk of going broke wasn't a big deal lol. Be prepared for neighboring land owners to threaten to sue you all the time, mine finally shut up when I said sue me. That was until I got the Judge Joe Mathis letter in the mail where they wanted to take me on TV court. The we had someone get hurt the very first weekend we were open at a UTV race, He decided to sue Polaris and the dealership he bought it from but not us.

I've had the discussion with people that I think the days of opening these mega moto facilities for your main source of income are over with. Most of the big nice tracks have been around forever. Know your market and who you need to cater to. I take care of mostly newer riders and locals and in turn they've treated us pretty well. We are far from a mega facility but there is a place for us in the market here.

You need to be a jack of all trades. Everything from our scoring / signup building, water truck, and even our starting gates were built by us.

Now we're not over here driving bentleys and Range Rovers from operating a Moto X track but it pays for itself. I remember telling myself how I was going to ride all the time and get in shape blah blah blah. I've ridden on my track twice.









Agfracing
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Jamestown, NY US
9/18/2014 9:05am
Thanks to those of you giving good advice. Those of you saying don't do it.. Not really what i was looking for. Im not trying to get rich off of a track, I just want a place that I can get going that will support itself. I understand how much work it would be and I had already thought putting riders to work in exchange for practice/race fees. the advertising part of this was also something i thought of. I went to college for business/marketing so marketing the track wouldn't be an issue.

I agree with war was said about the track needing good communication when theres bad weather, there is nothing more annoying then trying to figure out if the track is open or not when they haven't updated anything in 24 hours or more.

Im not looking to have my income from the track if this goes through. I have the other business that has been going fairly well for me that i don't want to give up. I have many many connections in the local community from being a downtown business owner, From landscaping and general contractors to lawyers and local political figures.

I just want a place that would be awesome, no huge compound, a track thats fun for everyone, good facilities and workers that aren't assholes. I would ride way more then i currently do if there was a fun track close by me that was open regularly and maintained the way it should be.

There is no other reason for this then the love of the support. I was laid up in the hospital for 31 days last year from a wreck i had sept 14th. The entire time I was in there i was watching moto videos and reading about the logistics of opening and operating a track. I have found places that will lease and maintain equipment but the pricing of it doesn't seem affordable or economical.

Also, In NY obviously the winter is a killer, other than an indoor track which I'm not interested in at the moment, Is there any source of income to be had for the track during the winter months?

I appreciate everyones input and keep it coming!
walleyeguy
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Centerville, PA US
9/18/2014 9:12am
Been seriously considering this myself. I was thinking more of a track and trail system that was open everyday to ride on but I figured I would leave out the race schedule. Just a place to go hang out and throw some laps down. There's a pretty nice club set up in Seagertown behind 5 Star Cycle called Hillside. 1 1/2 mile track and 6 miles of trails. Check it out. I was thinking if I did it I would throw in a kids track and a straight rythem section going the whole length of the track or maybe just make it part of the track (one long straight stretch of doubles, whoops, triples, and six packs. But anyway check out Hillside. Pymy sucks and after 12 years off the bike and just now getting back into it, it looks like Mapleshade is boring too. I want more of a motocross meets supercross track.
Agfracing
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Jamestown, NY US
9/18/2014 9:14am
Im not here to talk shit about any tracks or anyone that owns tracks. But maple shade hasn't been properly maintained in years.. Don't get me wrong i go and ride it and have fun. But its been going downhill for years...
walleyeguy
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9/18/2014 9:19am
Equipment isn't really a big deal either. A 30-40 horse tractor with a front bucket is all you'd really NEED after the track is built. Get a box blade, a set of discs and a rock rake. That would keep a track in our area in great shape.
walleyeguy
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9/18/2014 9:27am
Yeah, I used to LOVE Mapleshade but from what I heard and what I see on youtube it's nothing but long low tabletops and covered in baseball sized rocks. No thanks. And pymy is well......the same old pymy....little and boring with no practice days. Get your track done so I can have a free membership and you can have one at mine. lol. Going to hillside tomorrow from 3 till dark.
Bret
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9/18/2014 9:32am
I wouldn't jump in head first. You need to think about this long term. See if you can work or volunteer at a track for a couple years. Ask questions and pay attention to everything. If you still want to move forward afterwards you will be somewhat prepared.
jhansen510
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9/18/2014 10:18am
I think it is great that you have optimism on your side. But I think you also need to be realistic. This is a sport that is dieing on a grass roots level. It is great that you have a semi-successful business and all. But operating 2 businesses properly is not an easy feat. Especially not a business that is turning a respectable profit. If it were me I would be looking into a private track/home rather than a public track. Best of both worlds if you ask me!
Highsider
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9/18/2014 10:32am
Nobody in their right mind would run an mx track...

...at least longer than sixteen years. Whistling
walleyeguy
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9/18/2014 11:25am
I just want to "taylor" make a track that I like and have other people pay for it. lol. No, really. I'm not going to do the race thing with mine. I just want a place to ride. Open it up as it's own "club" or "business" that way if I get sued they only get what is in the "tracks" name. I have a small JD 350 dozer, a backhoe, and a tractor. I just need a set of discs. Charge people a membership and charge guests a fee large enough that they become members. Throw a couple pig roast "rock picking" parties and have some fun.
lostboy819
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9/18/2014 11:32am
Agfracing wrote:
Thanks to those of you giving good advice. Those of you saying don't do it.. Not really what i was looking for. Im not trying to...
Thanks to those of you giving good advice. Those of you saying don't do it.. Not really what i was looking for. Im not trying to get rich off of a track, I just want a place that I can get going that will support itself. I understand how much work it would be and I had already thought putting riders to work in exchange for practice/race fees. the advertising part of this was also something i thought of. I went to college for business/marketing so marketing the track wouldn't be an issue.

I agree with war was said about the track needing good communication when theres bad weather, there is nothing more annoying then trying to figure out if the track is open or not when they haven't updated anything in 24 hours or more.

Im not looking to have my income from the track if this goes through. I have the other business that has been going fairly well for me that i don't want to give up. I have many many connections in the local community from being a downtown business owner, From landscaping and general contractors to lawyers and local political figures.

I just want a place that would be awesome, no huge compound, a track thats fun for everyone, good facilities and workers that aren't assholes. I would ride way more then i currently do if there was a fun track close by me that was open regularly and maintained the way it should be.

There is no other reason for this then the love of the support. I was laid up in the hospital for 31 days last year from a wreck i had sept 14th. The entire time I was in there i was watching moto videos and reading about the logistics of opening and operating a track. I have found places that will lease and maintain equipment but the pricing of it doesn't seem affordable or economical.

Also, In NY obviously the winter is a killer, other than an indoor track which I'm not interested in at the moment, Is there any source of income to be had for the track during the winter months?

I appreciate everyones input and keep it coming!
There is a reason that tracks are closing up and not many new tracks opening. You need to know the market and the market is shrinking every year.
Agfracing
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Jamestown, NY US
9/18/2014 12:04pm
Ive been involved with motocross since i was four. I think i know the market. Again to everyone trying to talk me out of it. Don't. Im not trying to get rich. If i opened a track and had a place to ride once the maintenance was done and i didn't make a single dime off of it but it paid for itself after a few years i would be happy.

Im looking for people who are actually involved with a track and know about the functionality of them. I bet half of the people saying not to do it have never even volunteered at a track before.
lostboy819
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9/18/2014 12:54pm Edited Date/Time 9/18/2014 12:57pm
Agfracing wrote:
Ive been involved with motocross since i was four. I think i know the market. Again to everyone trying to talk me out of it. Don't...
Ive been involved with motocross since i was four. I think i know the market. Again to everyone trying to talk me out of it. Don't. Im not trying to get rich. If i opened a track and had a place to ride once the maintenance was done and i didn't make a single dime off of it but it paid for itself after a few years i would be happy.

Im looking for people who are actually involved with a track and know about the functionality of them. I bet half of the people saying not to do it have never even volunteered at a track before.
Well I have been involved sense 1974 and worked several tracks including Ponca where I grew up and the Lakewood National track and these are both owned by the city that they are located in and both tracks are leased out for next to nothing. My Friends own a track that has been around sense the late 60s and is a very popular track owned by racers who have other jobs and that track is prepped and has races several times a year but they would sell it in a heart beat just to get out from under it. Rider numbers have dropped more than 50% over that last 15 years and get worse every year, so you go right ahead and start your track Mr trump seeing that at age 22 you know everything there is to know about the motocross market. Pinch
Cygnus
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Hanover, CO US
9/18/2014 12:59pm
Agfracing wrote:
Ive been involved with motocross since i was four. I think i know the market. Again to everyone trying to talk me out of it. Don't...
Ive been involved with motocross since i was four. I think i know the market. Again to everyone trying to talk me out of it. Don't. Im not trying to get rich. If i opened a track and had a place to ride once the maintenance was done and i didn't make a single dime off of it but it paid for itself after a few years i would be happy.

Im looking for people who are actually involved with a track and know about the functionality of them. I bet half of the people saying not to do it have never even volunteered at a track before.
lostboy819 wrote:
Well I have been involved sense 1974 and worked several tracks including Ponca where I grew up and the Lakewood National track and these are both...
Well I have been involved sense 1974 and worked several tracks including Ponca where I grew up and the Lakewood National track and these are both owned by the city that they are located in and both tracks are leased out for next to nothing. My Friends own a track that has been around sense the late 60s and is a very popular track owned by racers who have other jobs and that track is prepped and has races several times a year but they would sell it in a heart beat just to get out from under it. Rider numbers have dropped more than 50% over that last 15 years and get worse every year, so you go right ahead and start your track Mr trump seeing that at age 22 you know everything there is to know about the motocross market. Pinch
Shhh. I'm trying to sell him mine. Cool
Agfracing
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Jamestown, NY US
9/18/2014 1:11pm
Agfracing wrote:
Ive been involved with motocross since i was four. I think i know the market. Again to everyone trying to talk me out of it. Don't...
Ive been involved with motocross since i was four. I think i know the market. Again to everyone trying to talk me out of it. Don't. Im not trying to get rich. If i opened a track and had a place to ride once the maintenance was done and i didn't make a single dime off of it but it paid for itself after a few years i would be happy.

Im looking for people who are actually involved with a track and know about the functionality of them. I bet half of the people saying not to do it have never even volunteered at a track before.
lostboy819 wrote:
Well I have been involved sense 1974 and worked several tracks including Ponca where I grew up and the Lakewood National track and these are both...
Well I have been involved sense 1974 and worked several tracks including Ponca where I grew up and the Lakewood National track and these are both owned by the city that they are located in and both tracks are leased out for next to nothing. My Friends own a track that has been around sense the late 60s and is a very popular track owned by racers who have other jobs and that track is prepped and has races several times a year but they would sell it in a heart beat just to get out from under it. Rider numbers have dropped more than 50% over that last 15 years and get worse every year, so you go right ahead and start your track Mr trump seeing that at age 22 you know everything there is to know about the motocross market. Pinch
I didn't say everyone had no experience. I was simply stating some of you guys probably don't. I know its not a profitable venture at all. But the goal here isn't to make money. I didn't post here and ask you guys to talk em out of it. I posted to ask for information to help me decide for myself.
9/18/2014 1:36pm
How many tracks have you actually "worked" at or for? If you haven't followed a track owner around from daylight til dark, then you don't have a clue how much work is required. The work for an event starts two weeks before, works up to 18 hour or more days and then it takes about a week to clean up and rest. That's three weeks out of the month. You just want to have practice on sat/sun? Start working on wednesday. There are plenty of people that tell you they will help, but they can't be there until Sunday around 8am and can't stay past 5pm. Insert reasons here_______________. Most of them will tell you how they can "operate equipment", but they don't want to be a yellow flagger, pick up trash, check the toilets or any of the many crappy jobs that are required to keep a track going. You want to ride your own track? HAH. I've promoted mx races since 1983 and have never ridden or raced at any of them. I have my own practice track and I get to ride it maybe 5-6 times a year. Most of the time I am prepping it for other people to ride. When I want to ride, I go to someone else's track. They do all the work and I ride. Memberships? I say bullshit. You take all the money in at the first of the year and it's gone by July. Guess who pays for fuel, track prep, toilets etc the rest of the year. Slack off on any of that and the memberships will tank. Complaints? You better have thick skin because every swinging dick knows ten times what you know about your own track. Go ahead if you love it, just don't expect to ride much on your own track. You'll be too tired to have any fun like that. I've done it all.....licked the stamps, cleaned the toilets, sold the hot dogs, driven the dozer, the tractor, the water truck, scored and tallied, announced, been the referee, picked up the trash, mowed, weedeated....makes you tired doesn't it. It has been fun, I'm not rich, I am smarter and older. You will be too someday.
huck
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Mountain Home, AR US
9/18/2014 1:47pm
How many tracks have you actually "worked" at or for? If you haven't followed a track owner around from daylight til dark, then you don't have...
How many tracks have you actually "worked" at or for? If you haven't followed a track owner around from daylight til dark, then you don't have a clue how much work is required. The work for an event starts two weeks before, works up to 18 hour or more days and then it takes about a week to clean up and rest. That's three weeks out of the month. You just want to have practice on sat/sun? Start working on wednesday. There are plenty of people that tell you they will help, but they can't be there until Sunday around 8am and can't stay past 5pm. Insert reasons here_______________. Most of them will tell you how they can "operate equipment", but they don't want to be a yellow flagger, pick up trash, check the toilets or any of the many crappy jobs that are required to keep a track going. You want to ride your own track? HAH. I've promoted mx races since 1983 and have never ridden or raced at any of them. I have my own practice track and I get to ride it maybe 5-6 times a year. Most of the time I am prepping it for other people to ride. When I want to ride, I go to someone else's track. They do all the work and I ride. Memberships? I say bullshit. You take all the money in at the first of the year and it's gone by July. Guess who pays for fuel, track prep, toilets etc the rest of the year. Slack off on any of that and the memberships will tank. Complaints? You better have thick skin because every swinging dick knows ten times what you know about your own track. Go ahead if you love it, just don't expect to ride much on your own track. You'll be too tired to have any fun like that. I've done it all.....licked the stamps, cleaned the toilets, sold the hot dogs, driven the dozer, the tractor, the water truck, scored and tallied, announced, been the referee, picked up the trash, mowed, weedeated....makes you tired doesn't it. It has been fun, I'm not rich, I am smarter and older. You will be too someday.
You forgot about all the glamorous equipment repair....

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