I can build a new Safety Flagging Light - Opinions Please

teggers
Posts
3689
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Winter Park, FL US
Edited Date/Time 7/16/2014 7:30pm
I was talking with a buddy today and he kind of kicked me back into gear about this Flagging Light.

I manufacture LED Lights in an overseas factory. I retrofit them here with rechargeable batteries so production companies can provide custom colors of light at events without having to use extension cords. It eliminates the need for ordering custom power from hotels, and it is safer for guests because of no extension cords or tripping hazards.



Recently, there is a new product that will allow me to control the color of these lights wirelessly as well. ANY color you want. No control cables! I can transmit up to 1/2 mile - easily.



Currently, as in right now, I can build these mobile flagging stands (that can be pre-charged) and placed at strategic points on the track. The batteries will last approx. 10-12 hours, possibly 16 hours depending on a few variables. I can run an unlimited amount of nodes from one control area. They could go as high as 12 feet - maybe as high as 20'. They weigh about 15 lbs., so if a rider hit one, the light would buckle and minimal rider injury would be sustained.



These lights could be used as a starter light as well from the same controller. They could also be used as traffic control after the race is over.



I know you are going to ask.....I estimate the cost to be under $800 each. Possibly much lower. MUCH Lower depending on the requirements.



Thoughts Please? My first ad would be on Vital.
|
Renner153
Posts
1360
Joined
12/10/2008
Location
Mulberry, FL US
Fantasy
3578th
6/29/2010 8:18pm
Sounds like it would be a good idea, kinda like the lights in sx.
teggers
Posts
3689
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Winter Park, FL US
6/29/2010 8:22pm
The nighttime lights would be cheaper. They don't have to be as bright. I can also make them strobe to get the riders attention more easily.
Regis
Posts
2693
Joined
6/17/2008
Location
Gonzales, LA US
Fantasy
340th
6/29/2010 8:30pm Edited Date/Time 6/29/2010 8:34pm
In SX in 1999 they implemented for a few races flagging lights on some of the jumps. Yellow and red "strobe" type lights.



Personally, I HATED them. It was completely different then having a guy move out and wave a flag.



At the San Diego Sx that year I was on a 125cc and was jumping off the step on step off before the triple. For you that have ridden 125cc SX you know that this was the point of no return as you were grabbing third gear and praying to god you didn't miss as shift as you were going up the face of the triple.



Well as I jumped off and was committed this red light gets flicked on. Had I tried to stop I would have faced the triple at that point I was committed. I tripled safely and continued the race.



When I pulled off Duke Finch was waiting for me and told me I was going to be DQ'd after finishing 11th (which was a huge accomplishment for me). I begged and pleaded. I didn't get dq'd because he understood the point of no return I was arguing as far as committing to the jump. However he did threaten to take my pro license If it happened again and didn't stop. Thankfully they did away with them (not sure if they are back). There was nothing worse than stressing on making a triple and keeping an eye out for that stupid light.



If you had this implemented you would have to have a judge at each light to watch and make a subjective call from the outside wether riders had time to react in each situation.



Honestly, lights are on the outside of the track and are really hard to see, you need that sudden distraction a flagger gives you when moving onto the track and a waving flag IMO.

Times have changed though and maybe it is a better answer. it isn't like it used to be where committing to an obstacle (like a triple) isn;t as "do or die" as it was back in the 125 2-stroke days.
teggers
Posts
3689
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Winter Park, FL US
6/29/2010 8:37pm
There are different lens designs now. I am aware of the "out of the corner of your eye" problems. I can make them with 160 degree dispersion if need be. That's almost a flat "beam" as apposed to a laser that has less than 1 degree. I think a 50 degree would be fine.

I also think that it is important to have the green light on at all times when not on caution. That way you know where the light is in case of a caution. As with all changes in life, there will be adjustments.

The Shop

swizcore
Posts
4233
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Fenton, MI US
6/29/2010 8:41pm
Playing devils advocate; what about color-blind riders?
Renner153
Posts
1360
Joined
12/10/2008
Location
Mulberry, FL US
Fantasy
3578th
6/29/2010 8:41pm
teggers wrote:
The nighttime lights would be cheaper. They don't have to be as bright. I can also make them strobe to get the riders attention more easily.
The strobe affect would probably work, but maybe just and off color from the tough blocks/hay bales etc. would be good. It would help keep flaggers off the faces of jumps that could be in a dangerous spot. Might even get the riders attention a little more then just a flagger. Like Regis said tho you would have to have an official at every light to check out the situation on the race. But it could work and it would be a good idea.
Regis
Posts
2693
Joined
6/17/2008
Location
Gonzales, LA US
Fantasy
340th
6/29/2010 8:45pm
teggers wrote:
There are different lens designs now. I am aware of the "out of the corner of your eye" problems. I can make them with 160 degree...
There are different lens designs now. I am aware of the "out of the corner of your eye" problems. I can make them with 160 degree dispersion if need be. That's almost a flat "beam" as apposed to a laser that has less than 1 degree. I think a 50 degree would be fine.

I also think that it is important to have the green light on at all times when not on caution. That way you know where the light is in case of a caution. As with all changes in life, there will be adjustments.
I am all for safety, and technology certainly has changed. I think you may be on to something.

If you can just stay away from the small box style strobe light that is on the face of the jumps off to the side, it may be something to have!

the green light is a good idea too, so you can get used to seeing the light.

The thing with racing is you are so concentrated on sections and racing and breathing that you need that " BAM!" to break that concentration and make you aware. You can't be looking for something or you will be losing time. you need the disruption in concentration to "snap you out of it" so to speak.

I think lighting can be the answer....... I just didn't like the way it was then.

I would love to see the change, especially with the advancements you are talking about.
teggers
Posts
3689
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Winter Park, FL US
6/29/2010 9:08pm
I am all for live flaggers too, but I can tell you that, as a racer/moto photog, someone flagger is going to get seriously hurt someday. Now that promoters are putting flaggers in big towers - away off the track, it makes it more dangerous to the rider to have those big towers on the infield, and takes the LIVE flagger out of my vision....There is no perfect solution, only a MORE perfect solution.

The trick is get them within your field of vision.....right next to the track. They can also be mounted to an existing structure and removed at night....there really is no limit to the creative places.
They are on temporary aluminum structures.... It's going to hurt to hit one, but not like a wooden tower.
Jakes Dad
Posts
1865
Joined
6/22/2009
Location
Brooksville, FL US
6/29/2010 9:36pm
Check and make sure you're not stepping on any toes, there's a guy at Hilliard that's manufactured them and currently used at that track. If I'm not mistaken he may have lost a son who rode mx.

Anybody familiar with their setup, my buddy has told me about it, never been there myself.
wet paint
Posts
404
Joined
7/15/2008
Location
Chesnee, SC US
6/29/2010 9:56pm
Tegger has the right idea with the strobes, you cant miss them. Regis is also correct on the point of being committed or of no return, what if they were moved back, say 10 or 20ft. before that point of being committed then there would be no excuse. Also a set on the face so you can at least try and single, double or be prepared for the other side if you passed the first set before they were on. jmo but I like the idea and glad to see people are trying to make things safer.
teggers
Posts
3689
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Winter Park, FL US
6/29/2010 11:26pm
Jakes Dad wrote:
Check and make sure you're not stepping on any toes, there's a guy at Hilliard that's manufactured them and currently used at that track. If I'm...
Check and make sure you're not stepping on any toes, there's a guy at Hilliard that's manufactured them and currently used at that track. If I'm not mistaken he may have lost a son who rode mx.

Anybody familiar with their setup, my buddy has told me about it, never been there myself.
I heard about him. My heart goes out and I would love to talk with him.
There is no stepping on toes....there is no such thing, that I know of, as of today. Maybe tomorrow....not today.
RNagy052
Posts
769
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Bryceville, FL US
6/30/2010 5:01am
Jakes Dad wrote:
Check and make sure you're not stepping on any toes, there's a guy at Hilliard that's manufactured them and currently used at that track. If I'm...
Check and make sure you're not stepping on any toes, there's a guy at Hilliard that's manufactured them and currently used at that track. If I'm not mistaken he may have lost a son who rode mx.

Anybody familiar with their setup, my buddy has told me about it, never been there myself.
I was just there on Saturday practicing and Alan does have traffic warning lights around the whole track. Each one has two lights, a yellow one and a red one. They are very similiar to the traffic lights you find on any street intersection, except only 2 lights, not 3 (no green) and they are framed with a Yellow Sign. He also told me on Saturday that he now has a siren wired in with the Red lights, so when the Red lights are switched on, a loud siren goes off as well to get you attention.

It is nice to have something out there on practice days when there are no flaggers, especially over blind jumps, so I would like to see more tracks have something like that.

neysbo
Posts
1827
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Edelstein, IL US
6/30/2010 5:12am
I think it is a worthy idea. I have often thought of it as well. At many tracks there are certain jumps here lights could be used. Just this past weekend at a LL Regional race I witnessed several occasions of crashes off jumps where the flaggers were not paying attention and until someone got their attention they finally waved the yellow flag.

I know with lights you would still be dependant on a person flipping a switch.

Definitly worth looking into
flarider
Posts
25499
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Daytona Beach, FL US
6/30/2010 5:15am
I think it's a good idea, Tim....but few things and the likely complaints

A light cannot replace the enthusiasm a flagger shows in a bad situation. We all know the difference between a flagger waving "cautiously" and a flagger waving "vigorously"

A light cannot divert or signal on-coming riders to one side of the track to avoid the incident

A light cannot look you in the eye to make sure you see and comprehend

and lastly, a light is only as good as the operator flipping the switches


IMO, a light used IN CONJUNCTION WITH a human flagger would be optimum
Renner153
Posts
1360
Joined
12/10/2008
Location
Mulberry, FL US
Fantasy
3578th
6/30/2010 5:58am
flarider wrote:
I think it's a good idea, Tim....but few things and the likely complaints A light cannot replace the enthusiasm a flagger shows in a bad situation...
I think it's a good idea, Tim....but few things and the likely complaints

A light cannot replace the enthusiasm a flagger shows in a bad situation. We all know the difference between a flagger waving "cautiously" and a flagger waving "vigorously"

A light cannot divert or signal on-coming riders to one side of the track to avoid the incident

A light cannot look you in the eye to make sure you see and comprehend

and lastly, a light is only as good as the operator flipping the switches


IMO, a light used IN CONJUNCTION WITH a human flagger would be optimum
First there would have to be an official standing there to for the light to work anyways so if it was bad enough he too could have a flag waving it.

I personally think that it is a better solution than having flaggers that don't really know what they are doing out there. I just think for it to work you would definitey have to have somebody that knows what they are doing in control of them and they would have to have a yellow or medic flag with them for times when needed
flarider
Posts
25499
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Daytona Beach, FL US
6/30/2010 6:03am
But, if I understand Tim correctly, his vision is to have the lights operated remotely, not by someone standing on the jump.

Like by someone in the tower who can have a wide overview of the track


BTW, if done in conjunction with a human flagger, have it beep or click so it can get the attention of the flagger (in the event they miss something)
6/30/2010 6:19am
as an experienced flagger, I can tell when things are going bad before the rider even hits the ground, and start waving immediatley. There will be a huge delay with a light system. I also look at the rider's and make sure they see me, so there's no "I didn't see", or any other sneaky bullshit going on. I can also immediatley assess whether the rider is OK, or medical attention is needed. I can also call for help if a rider is tangled in the bike, and needs additional help, as I am still waving, and directing traffic.
DC
Posts
3890
Joined
5/1/2009
Location
Morgantown, WV US
6/30/2010 6:40am
Tim, what about if the units were operated by individual marshals at each blind spot, sort of like the no-jumping flag we utilize now? Instead of waving the flag, they hit the button? Each lighting unit would have it's own battery, so why not its own marshal? That offers more immediacy, and no reason that can't can have a flag too... Having one centrally located person would be cheaper but it would be very difficult to spot each situation and react quickly from a tower....

If you can get it going, I can think of a few promoters who would be interested. Keep us posted. And thanks for beinng proactive.

DC
MX Sports
Steve47
Posts
274
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Winter Springs, FL US
6/30/2010 6:43am
I think some of you guys are missing the point...

Lights will never be as effective as a flagger, we all know that.

But the thing is most practice tracks don't have flaggers at all so it would be a plus to have lights instead of NOTHING!

I don't think it should be used during a race without flaggers but for practice days, I'll take it.
rocrac
Posts
2454
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Indianapolis, IN US
6/30/2010 6:46am
Steve47 wrote:
I think some of you guys are missing the point... Lights will never be as effective as a flagger, we all know that. But the thing...
I think some of you guys are missing the point...

Lights will never be as effective as a flagger, we all know that.

But the thing is most practice tracks don't have flaggers at all so it would be a plus to have lights instead of NOTHING!

I don't think it should be used during a race without flaggers but for practice days, I'll take it.
X2
pie8man
Posts
635
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Loveland, CO US
6/30/2010 7:31am
There is no way any one person could manage even 4 lights from a remote location. You simply cannot watch that much track. It is a great idea but it will still require a person at each section or several people at a central remote location to operate the lights. I would love to see some system like this on practice days but I do not think it will lower the quantity of people required to effectively use it. Really on practice days a guy on a bike that stops to warn others is more effective than any flagger I have ever seen.
wardy
Posts
1765
Joined
3/31/2008
Location
US
6/30/2010 7:37am
I suggested this to AMA back in 2000??. We used to run a track that had a couple spots that would have been perfect to use a yellow light system.

they told us at the time NO. Then the next winter wala, SX had yellow lights.

Whats nice about this idea and would work. You can keep the flagger out of harms way, AND you dont have to build a "flagger stand" which is simply another obstacle by the track which in the wrong circumstance is something a rider will hit. (hay baled or not) that flagger stand won't move.

light setups for places that run practice tracks or currently run practice's with no flaggers could add remote cameras to these spots to a central location. It may seem far fetched but something is better then nothing.

lights are great idea. wireless is the best part of if all.
mjskier
Posts
1880
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
CO US
6/30/2010 8:18am
I think riders would pay a lot more attention if the flagging was done by the 30 second girls wearing different color skirts.
For example, here's your yellow flag:

pie8man
Posts
635
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Loveland, CO US
6/30/2010 8:28am
I read my post again and it sounds very negative but I am all for this. The part that may be most safety effective is the red light for times when the track is closed. It has been a while since a MX vs Tractor joust match, but at my local track you can pull on from anywhere and miss the little sign a the start finish line that the track is closed and easily run up on a tractor or water truck. On practice days, even if there is only one person running the lights it is better than none. Someone should be watching the track anyway.
drmarkr
Posts
3211
Joined
8/21/2006
Location
Tucson, AZ US
6/30/2010 9:43am
Our local track here in Tucson, owned by the county, has had lights exactly like this for 5+ years. They work great. They're hardwired, rather than wireless, but they do their job well.

There are 4 towers spread around the track that spotters use to activate the lights, but any light can also be run from any other tower, or from the centrally located scoring tower.

Tim, other tracks in this state have looked into doing something like our track here has. If you want contact info for some of those folks, get in touch and I'll pass it on.

These have worked great, and I've never heard a negative comment about the things. Because the spotter is up and "central" to his area of responsibility, there seems to be less risk of the flagger getting caught up in watching what he shouldn't be and then missing the crash.
swizcore
Posts
4233
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Fenton, MI US
6/30/2010 10:08am
swizcore wrote:
Playing devils advocate; what about color-blind riders?
It's a pretty big hurdle if you are.
VEGAS711
Posts
360
Joined
10/8/2008
Location
Las Vegas, NV US
6/30/2010 10:43am
mjskier wrote:
I think riders would pay a lot more attention if the flagging was done by the 30 second girls wearing different color skirts. For example, here's...
I think riders would pay a lot more attention if the flagging was done by the 30 second girls wearing different color skirts.
For example, here's your yellow flag:

Wrong! I predict many more crashes with 12 of these running around the sides of the track.Tongue
Jakes Dad
Posts
1865
Joined
6/22/2009
Location
Brooksville, FL US
6/30/2010 11:47am
swizcore wrote:
Playing devils advocate; what about color-blind riders?
swizcore wrote:
It's a pretty big hurdle if you are.
My son is color blind and has never mentioned an issue between yellow or red flags. Flashing strobe is a great idea though, seen too many incidents on practice days without enough (if any) flaggers.

If you'd like Jake and I could meet up with you sometime and see how it works with someone colorblind.
swizcore
Posts
4233
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Fenton, MI US
6/30/2010 12:09pm
swizcore wrote:
Playing devils advocate; what about color-blind riders?
swizcore wrote:
It's a pretty big hurdle if you are.
Jakes Dad wrote:
My son is color blind and has never mentioned an issue between yellow or red flags. Flashing strobe is a great idea though, seen too many...
My son is color blind and has never mentioned an issue between yellow or red flags. Flashing strobe is a great idea though, seen too many incidents on practice days without enough (if any) flaggers.

If you'd like Jake and I could meet up with you sometime and see how it works with someone colorblind.
Exactly the response I was hoping for. This light system sounds like a great step forward for safety.
teggers
Posts
3689
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Winter Park, FL US
6/30/2010 12:40pm
Thanks guys.
I can mount a 360 degree power strobe on the top of the unit...
I'll build a quick proto today on some of those ideas.

Post a reply to: I can build a new Safety Flagging Light - Opinions Please

The Latest