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I know someone will say “government subsidy” but how much can they subsidize? 25%? 30%? Anders Ljunggren’s out of pocket must still be huge! I doubt there is venture capital rolling into a 125 2-stroke dirt bike startup. I’m blown away. Is there a biz plan? Is this just a labor of love? Is dirty money at play? Chinese parts? I mean yeah…maybe so….but he plans to race the thing in EMX so we’ll know about quality pretty soon. Definitely a head scratcher. No matter, I wish the guy well. I’d love to see a legit $5000 250cc smoker.
The Shop
With all the computer generated techniques available now you could probably make some small changes that would enable you to copy a Yamaha engine, yet change it just enough so that it mounts into the frame that you copied from a Suzuki, etc.
And that assumes that you can somehow get acces to the Yamaha production molds or build/create them yourself ($$$).
Anyway, what i would do is:
[*] Make a deal with one of the many kart engine builders who were offering ICC (125cc 2 stroke) kart engines in the early 2000's. THere were a bunch of them (Vortex, pavesi, crs, sgm, seven, balen, cassani, etc. etc.These engines are obsolete due to rule changes but with some changes could be a good base for a MX bike. The molds are worthless nowadays for karting since they are obsolete, so i would imagine that you'd be able to make a deal for cheap or for a kickback fee whenever you sell a bike.
[*] Build your own frame, robust but low cost.
[*] Focus on one region and start a one-make low cost racing series. Nobody that does races is going to race a bike that won't be competitive versus a 2017 KTM or Husqvarna 125.
Without any market research i would estimate that if you can offer this bike with a decent margin for yourself in the EUR 3.500-4.000 range and offer a one make competition that there would be a market. That would be half the price of a new KTM SX 125cc bike. Obviously assuming you can ensure that the bike is reliable and fun to ride. Basically similar to what Rotax did with the Rotax Max challenge in karting (95% of the speed of the traditional 100cc karts, but probably less then 50% of the running costs)
If you can't offer it for that price or it isnt reliable or decent to ride i wouldnt start it.
Very cool if he gets some bikes out...but we´ll see.
In a few 'clicks', you can bring up pictures of them. It's a twin spar aluminium frame - and that's what makes people come out with the "it's a CR frame".
There are quite a few Chinese / Asian bikes made with aluminium twin spar frames. Christini's frames for their 2WDs are Chinese / Asian sourced (as are their 4t engines).
The engine, with only the one view I've found (and in black it's hard to see things) has the water pump pretty much the same shape / area as a CR125. The clutch cover the same again, but I can't quite make out the short vertical leading edge to the CRs cover because of the black. But I think it's there.
It's not hard to get a company to take an existing motor as a basis, and change enough to avoid any patent / licensing issues. Not that anything could be done by companies that might object to any 'copying' - the Chinese and many other countries would pretty much have no regard for Patents/ Engineering Design'ownership'. Look to the many, many Honda XR through to CRF near copies.
What's hard is making sure you get the quality and design you have paid for / specified from your manufacturing source. For that reason, many companies that get things made in Asia / India have their direct employees on site to make sure of things.
The manufacturing facilities in many Asian countries and India / other places range from the most basic, to the ultra high end. They can make pretty much anything, to pretty much any quality level you want.
Get things done properly, keep a controlling hand, and you have a reasonable chance of success.
Good luck to them. It's not going to be easy.
Btw i see they have a fundme project going for their entry in an emx125 race for roughly $1000. Imo that doesnt look like they have funding.
That's the name of our game. You aren't just buying a stock motor, TM motors are ported, tranny's coated/hardened, and assembled with billet and titanium pieces. The 45 degree head angle TM has had for several years as well as the true dual exhaust.
Chassis wise, each individual model has its own hand-welded aluminum frame (85, 125/144, 250/300, etc). The welds are spotless and everything is greased ready to go from the box. CNC aluminum clamps and hubs, Nissin hydraulic clutch mated with Brembo braking components and Galfer oversized rotors. You also get the some of the best functioning forks ever made with the KYB SSS components.
Good idea.. TM just got there a little ahead of everyone else
I would NEVER put my kid on a tm 85 after I saw a friends 50 hrs tm 85 with 3 frame cracks, and his son is not "fast" (like Lorettas or similar)
And those welds looked like shit.. sorry but true story.
It was a 2015 model.
Pit Row
But, I've see prices / costings of many bicycle frames, and some Aluminium MC frames from China / Asia in general, as I've been involved in a few design projects for manufacturers over many years. At the quantities of production you see for even relatively high end frames, you'd be stunned at the price - stunned in how little things can cost. It's still amazing to me. Economy of Scale really does bring pricing down.............
But, of course, getting, say, a hundred (far less I'd say at the start, if Husagren progresses from the 'AF'd bike they look to have - I'd say it's a CR125 engine in a CRF frame, with their own / modified plastics, at the moment to get interest in it all) frames / chassis would probably bring the price, ex factory, to a few hundred dollars for a whole Main Frame , Swingarm and Linkage.
So, they are 'flying a Kite', so to speak, at the moment. That's Not to denigrate the Husagren project - 'flying a Kite' is how most things start.
I wish them well - I wish anyone that has a go, and deals honestly, well. Get it sorted, with quality materials and manufacturing, and they could perhaps find a reasonable market.
Thanks for the info anyway.
You want an established company to build a modded motor and put it in their frame?... you'll see the price jacked way higher than a TM. You get the bang for your buck. Some will understand; some won't. But the ones that ride Tm do.
I literally just saw it happen earlier in this season. A
kid opted for an orange 125 and it still doesn't run as well as a TM. You get what you pay for.
This thread is about an effort by Husagren to build a bike and potentially getting a bike that may not be competitive with KTM's, Husky's and TM's , but can be offered at a substantial lower price.Exactlyl the opposiite of what TM is doing, but if Husagren can offer a reliable 125 for half the price of the alternatives that could be a great concept for hobby and entry level riders.
I don't have the perfect answer but I think we will all agree that 2 strokes and lower prices are major ingredients to the survival and health of our sport.
I kind of look at this like ATK in the mid 80s or the Italian cottage industry brands. If you can source good components and a reliable engine and put it all together it can work on a small scale in your target market. To a certain extent it did for Swm, Anchillotti, Tgm, Gilera. Lots of those brands used the same motors from sources like Hiro.
Plus in Sweden there is a history, factories, engineers, and workers with experience in dirt bikes which could be beneficial.
Best of luck to him...it will be interesting to see how they do in a few weeks.
I don't even think that being a bit heavier and less power is the issue in itself, it's just that you cannot be competitive versus other bikes in your class what kills it.
I mean i don't think many would complain about the racing if all that would be available to race today would be (new) 1995 year old 125's but for 60% of todays 250 4t MSRP.
Anyway, Rotax overcame that by setting up their own competition (rotax max challenge) in karting and using their existing network of dealers. A bit slower and heavier to the traditional classes, but since it was half the costs and everyone was racing the same equipment it quickly wasn't an issue anymore but actually an advantage.
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