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icrashalot icrashalot
7/31/2017 11:32 PM
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Lastander Lastander
8/1/2017 12:27 AM

I think its a 2000/2001 Cr125 with some mods, no "new" frame or anything.

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F150Motocrosser F150Motocrosser
8/1/2017 6:03 AM

Interesting concept. Surely there must be certain components that are of inferior quality than what the current OEMs offer. Aiming for less expensive product while having a fraction of the economies of scale that the current 2 stroke manufacturers have... there's no free lunch. The brand and assembly factory may be Swedish, but I'd bet the majority of component suppliers are out of Asia. I know the current OEM's surely source product made in Asia, but quality control can vary greatly between suppliers..

Positively, absolutely 110% obsessed with anything MOTO.

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mx_563 mx_563
8/1/2017 8:44 AM

People tend to think of the USA as the land of entrepreneurism and Europe as an overtaxed nanny-state full of bureaucracy and red tape. Yet Europe has GasGas, Sherco, Beta, SWM and TM. Even in the 80s you had CCM and Husaberg make a run. These are all relatively small companies if I’m not mistaken. Now some dude out of Sweden, who spent much of his career spinning wrenches on MX teams, is able to go out on his own and start a dirt bike company? How is this possible?
I know someone will say “government subsidy” but how much can they subsidize? 25%? 30%? Anders Ljunggren’s out of pocket must still be huge! I doubt there is venture capital rolling into a 125 2-stroke dirt bike startup. I’m blown away. Is there a biz plan? Is this just a labor of love? Is dirty money at play? Chinese parts? I mean yeah…maybe so….but he plans to race the thing in EMX so we’ll know about quality pretty soon. Definitely a head scratcher. No matter, I wish the guy well. I’d love to see a legit $5000 250cc smoker.

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hyler199 hyler199
8/1/2017 9:19 AM

Sponsor Pingree to ride it

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APLMAN99 APLMAN99
8/1/2017 10:57 AM
F150Motocrosser wrote:

Interesting concept. ...more

I think that a lot of the "cost savings" would come from not really doing any true R&D work compared to the current OEMs. Just basically copy some older technology, have those components built off site for a low price, then assemble at your own "factory".

With all the computer generated techniques available now you could probably make some small changes that would enable you to copy a Yamaha engine, yet change it just enough so that it mounts into the frame that you copied from a Suzuki, etc.

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Yep Yep
8/1/2017 11:09 AM

Is Anders associated with Ljunggren's in Karlskoga?

If you don't crash alot you just ain't going fast enough, Danny

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roninho roninho
8/1/2017 11:37 PM
APLMAN99 wrote:

I think that a lot of the ...more

If this is a genuine business then i don't think you would get far by copying a Yamaha engine and making some small changes to it. If the business would make any progress i'm sure Yamaha would be all over them for copyright/ip infringement.

And that assumes that you can somehow get acces to the Yamaha production molds or build/create them yourself ($$$).

Anyway, what i would do is:

  • Make a deal with one of the many kart engine builders who were offering ICC
  • (125cc 2 stroke) kart engines in the early 2000's. THere were a bunch of them (Vortex, pavesi, crs, sgm, seven, balen, cassani, etc. etc.These engines are obsolete due to rule changes but with some changes could be a good base for a MX bike. The molds are worthless nowadays for karting since they are obsolete, so i would imagine that you'd be able to make a deal for cheap or for a kickback fee whenever you sell a bike.

  • Build your own frame, robust but low cost.

  • Focus on one region and start a one-make low cost racing series. Nobody that does races is going to race a bike that won't be competitive versus a 2017 KTM or Husqvarna 125.

    Without any market research i would estimate that if you can offer this bike with a decent margin for yourself in the EUR 3.500-4.000 range and offer a one make competition that there would be a market. That would be half the price of a new KTM SX 125cc bike. Obviously assuming you can ensure that the bike is reliable and fun to ride. Basically similar to what Rotax did with the Rotax Max challenge in karting
  • (95% of the speed of the traditional 100cc karts, but probably less then 50% of the running costs)

    If you can't offer it for that price or it isnt reliable or decent to ride i wouldnt start it.


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    Rejser Rejser
    8/2/2017 12:59 AM
    Yep wrote:

    Is Anders associated with ...more

    Nope.

    Very cool if he gets some bikes out...but we´ll see.

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    HenryA HenryA
    8/2/2017 4:48 AM

    Swedish made 2-stroke? Where do I sign?

    #1
    KX125

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    slothy slothy
    8/2/2017 4:56 AM
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    Bearuno Bearuno
    8/2/2017 9:10 AM
    Lastander wrote:

    I think its a 2000/2001 ...more

    It's not a 2000/ 2001 or through to a 2007 Honda CR125 frame. Just look at the swingarm pivot / shock mount tower castings to spar junction, for the easiest visual differentiation. Those areas and smaller spars are more similar to say, 2010 etc CRFs.

    In a few 'clicks', you can bring up pictures of them. It's a twin spar aluminium frame - and that's what makes people come out with the "it's a CR frame".

    There are quite a few Chinese / Asian bikes made with aluminium twin spar frames. Christini's frames for their 2WDs are Chinese / Asian sourced (as are their 4t engines).

    The engine, with only the one view I've found (and in black it's hard to see things) has the water pump pretty much the same shape / area as a CR125. The clutch cover the same again, but I can't quite make out the short vertical leading edge to the CRs cover because of the black. But I think it's there.

    It's not hard to get a company to take an existing motor as a basis, and change enough to avoid any patent / licensing issues. Not that anything could be done by companies that might object to any 'copying' - the Chinese and many other countries would pretty much have no regard for Patents/ Engineering Design'ownership'. Look to the many, many Honda XR through to CRF near copies.

    What's hard is making sure you get the quality and design you have paid for / specified from your manufacturing source. For that reason, many companies that get things made in Asia / India have their direct employees on site to make sure of things.

    The manufacturing facilities in many Asian countries and India / other places range from the most basic, to the ultra high end. They can make pretty much anything, to pretty much any quality level you want.

    Get things done properly, keep a controlling hand, and you have a reasonable chance of success.

    Good luck to them. It's not going to be easy.

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    roninho roninho
    8/2/2017 2:23 PM
    Bearuno wrote:

    It's not a 2000/ 2001 or ...more

    What would you think it would cost to build a rolling frame?

    Btw i see they have a fundme project going for their entry in an emx125 race for roughly $1000. Imo that doesnt look like they have funding.

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    tmracinggeorgia tmracinggeorgia
    8/2/2017 7:25 PM
    F150Motocrosser wrote:

    Interesting concept. ...more

    APLMAN99 wrote:

    I think that a lot of the ...more

    roninho wrote:

    If this is a genuine ...more

    There already is a company who has specialized in karting, and thus been able to manufacture factory level MX, EN, and SMM bikes out of the box (avoiding the economies of scale). High output motors in custom, aluminum frames, with the best aftermarket components to compliment... TM Racing.

    That's the name of our game. You aren't just buying a stock motor, TM motors are ported, tranny's coated/hardened, and assembled with billet and titanium pieces. The 45 degree head angle TM has had for several years as well as the true dual exhaust.

    Chassis wise, each individual model has its own hand-welded aluminum frame (85, 125/144, 250/300, etc). The welds are spotless and everything is greased ready to go from the box. CNC aluminum clamps and hubs, Nissin hydraulic clutch mated with Brembo braking components and Galfer oversized rotors. You also get the some of the best functioning forks ever made with the KYB SSS components.

    Good idea.. TM just got there a little ahead of everyone else wink

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    kzizok kzizok
    8/2/2017 7:31 PM
    tmracinggeorgia wrote:

    There already is a company ...more

    I love the TM's, however, I think the main idea behind the Husgren is afforadability for the masses.

    much ty. How to spot a paid forum poster/artificial forum traffic producer (see list of actions/phrases below):

    Copius pattern amounts of phrases like “Anyone have”..., “Anybody know?”.... and their variations.

    Thoughts?
    Any help is appreciated!
    Thanks in advance!





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    slowgti slowgti
    8/2/2017 8:39 PM

    Does this sound like Swedish revenge? Kind of like the reverse of the cr125/Elsinore?

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    JWACK JWACK
    8/2/2017 8:58 PM
    APLMAN99 wrote:

    I think that a lot of the ...more

    roninho wrote:

    If this is a genuine ...more

    tmracinggeorgia wrote:

    There already is a company ...more

    Any changes to the body work on the 2018 2 strokes??

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    Kawasaki-rider Kawasaki-rider
    8/2/2017 9:13 PM
    tmracinggeorgia wrote:

    There already is a company ...more

    "The Welds are spotless"

    I would NEVER put my kid on a tm 85 after I saw a friends 50 hrs tm 85 with 3 frame cracks, and his son is not "fast" (like Lorettas or similar)

    And those welds looked like shit.. sorry but true story.

    It was a 2015 model.

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    Phillip_Lamb Phillip_Lamb
    8/2/2017 9:54 PM

    this is a good idea. hope it takes off

    "If you feel in control, you're not going fast enough" ~Mario Andretti

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    Bearuno Bearuno
    8/3/2017 1:15 AM
    roninho wrote:

    What would you think it ...more

    In all honesty, I couldn't give you an accurate price of a rolling frame / chassis from a high quality manufacturer of Aluminium frames in China / Asia. I only know totally accurately what it costs me, as a bloke in a 3 car garage sized workshop........ and it's not cheap. dizzy

    But, I've see prices / costings of many bicycle frames, and some Aluminium MC frames from China / Asia in general, as I've been involved in a few design projects for manufacturers over many years. At the quantities of production you see for even relatively high end frames, you'd be stunned at the price - stunned in how little things can cost. It's still amazing to me. Economy of Scale really does bring pricing down.............

    But, of course, getting, say, a hundred (far less I'd say at the start, if Husagren progresses from the 'AF'd bike they look to have - I'd say it's a CR125 engine in a CRF frame, with their own / modified plastics, at the moment to get interest in it all) frames / chassis would probably bring the price, ex factory, to a few hundred dollars for a whole Main Frame , Swingarm and Linkage.

    So, they are 'flying a Kite', so to speak, at the moment. That's Not to denigrate the Husagren project - 'flying a Kite' is how most things start.

    I wish them well - I wish anyone that has a go, and deals honestly, well. Get it sorted, with quality materials and manufacturing, and they could perhaps find a reasonable market.

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    roninho roninho
    8/3/2017 4:23 AM
    kzizok wrote:

    I love the TM's, however, ...more

    Exactly. I think TM is a great company, but they are for sure not aiming at offering a low priced entry level bike. As in 60% or less of what a KTM 125 or Husky 125 cost.

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    roninho roninho
    8/3/2017 4:27 AM
    Bearuno wrote:

    In all honesty, I couldn't ...more

    So if a frame, swingarm and linkage would be acouple of 100 $ (at 100 pieces), then we are talking about roughly $1000ish complete excluding engine? So plastics, wheels, suspension etc? Or more?

    Thanks for the info anyway.

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    tmracinggeorgia tmracinggeorgia
    8/4/2017 2:00 PM
    tmracinggeorgia wrote:

    There already is a company ...more

    kzizok wrote:

    I love the TM's, however, ...more

    roninho wrote:

    Exactly. I think TM is a ...more

    It isn't an entry level bike. Far from it. Tm is a niche bike that is modded from the factory.

    You want an established company to build a modded motor and put it in their frame?... you'll see the price jacked way higher than a TM. You get the bang for your buck. Some will understand; some won't. But the ones that ride Tm do.

    I literally just saw it happen earlier in this season. A
    kid opted for an orange 125 and it still doesn't run as well as a TM. You get what you pay for.

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    roninho roninho
    8/4/2017 2:27 PM
    tmracinggeorgia wrote:

    It isn't an entry level ...more

    yes, you sell tm. Great. However this thread is not about TM and how good the bike is.

    This thread is about an effort by Husagren to build a bike and potentially getting a bike that may not be competitive with KTM's, Husky's and TM's , but can be offered at a substantial lower price.Exactlyl the opposiite of what TM is doing, but if Husagren can offer a reliable 125 for half the price of the alternatives that could be a great concept for hobby and entry level riders.

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    kzizok kzizok
    8/4/2017 2:37 PM
    roninho wrote:

    yes, you sell tm. Great. ...more

    X2.

    much ty. How to spot a paid forum poster/artificial forum traffic producer (see list of actions/phrases below):

    Copius pattern amounts of phrases like “Anyone have”..., “Anybody know?”.... and their variations.

    Thoughts?
    Any help is appreciated!
    Thanks in advance!





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    dcg141 dcg141
    8/4/2017 2:53 PM

    The problem with lower cost bikes trying to lure customers away from established brands are used bikes. Most would try and buy a used bike than a new bike that is heavier and under powered. Its a great idea that has a hard time working in the real world of retail. The closest thing out there right now is AJP. Even at the lower prices they offer its a struggle to sell them in any numbers, and those are off road/ trial bikes. I think races bike would be an even more difficult sell.

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    wpark89 wpark89
    8/4/2017 5:16 PM

    I did the interview and as far I can tell this is really a big dream for Anders. He realizes the challenges and difficulties he will have to overcome. It's a cool idea and it seemed like valid moto news. Yes he's using some modified Honda parts, he's not trying to reinvent the motorcycle like Cannondale.

    I don't have the perfect answer but I think we will all agree that 2 strokes and lower prices are major ingredients to the survival and health of our sport.

    I kind of look at this like ATK in the mid 80s or the Italian cottage industry brands. If you can source good components and a reliable engine and put it all together it can work on a small scale in your target market. To a certain extent it did for Swm, Anchillotti, Tgm, Gilera. Lots of those brands used the same motors from sources like Hiro.

    Plus in Sweden there is a history, factories, engineers, and workers with experience in dirt bikes which could be beneficial.

    Best of luck to him...it will be interesting to see how they do in a few weeks.

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    roninho roninho
    8/4/2017 10:51 PM
    dcg141 wrote:

    The problem with lower ...more

    Yep agree, that sounds like a big hurdle.
    I don't even think that being a bit heavier and less power is the issue in itself, it's just that you cannot be competitive versus other bikes in your class what kills it.
    I mean i don't think many would complain about the racing if all that would be available to race today would be (new) 1995 year old 125's but for 60% of todays 250 4t MSRP.

    Anyway, Rotax overcame that by setting up their own competition (rotax max challenge) in karting and using their existing network of dealers. A bit slower and heavier to the traditional classes, but since it was half the costs and everyone was racing the same equipment it quickly wasn't an issue anymore but actually an advantage.

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