How to stop sand bagging

me_da_racer
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me_da_racer
Edited Date/Time 8/15/2014 10:00pm
I look and couldn't find a thread so I'll post the question.

Why do local series give a series championship to the "Beginner" class? I see kids in 250 beginner scrubbing jumps and lap times are not far off the winning Novice riders. They need to move up but they want that Championship at the end of the year. Like MxSports did with there Beginner Class, there should be NO championship for beginners. What do y'all think and do they carry points for beginners at your local races?
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jndmx
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jndmx 8/13/2014 4:26pm
8/13/2014 4:26pm
We don't run'em.

A, B and C classes only
Cygnus
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Cygnus 8/13/2014 4:27pm
8/13/2014 4:27pm
No beginner class championships here in CO. Not sure what series you are talking about?
ninesevenfour 8/13/2014 4:31pm
8/13/2014 4:31pm
The series I participate in does. However, If you win three races in one season you automatically get moved up to B and start with 0 points.

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Cygnus
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Cygnus 8/13/2014 4:33pm
8/13/2014 4:33pm
Here you can only race one season as a beginner and I think if you win once you move to C.
me_da_racer
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me_da_racer 8/13/2014 4:57pm
8/13/2014 4:57pm
Yeah here it is the same where you can race it only one year, but by making a championship for the Beginner you make them not want to move up mid year. Kinda like the 3 win rule, but bumping them to B class is harsh.
MarkF
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MarkF 8/13/2014 5:01pm
8/13/2014 5:01pm
I've always wondered the same thing about the Novice class.
Tim Parsley
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Tim Parsley 8/13/2014 5:13pm
8/13/2014 5:13pm
Sandbagging happens everywhere, Northeast FL/ Southeast GA has its share and there really isnt a policy in place to prevent it. The beginner class here doesnt seem to bad but the C class has a very wide range of speed. There are usually 2-4 guys that check out immediately and lap the bottom 3rd of the class in a 5 lap race. People stay in the C class so they can try to go to Lorettas and in turn discourages other riders from moving up from the beginner class.
dirtbikemike 8/13/2014 5:44pm
8/13/2014 5:44pm
Free entries to the beginner class, one pink trophy to the winner that says "Beginner winner" on it and the C class will get so big that all those sandbaggers will flee to the B class. Some of the fastest Pro riders in Texas are in the C class.
motomike137
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motomike137 8/13/2014 5:46pm
8/13/2014 5:46pm
C should be a true beginner class and as soon as your ride about 5 C races your in B end of story! No points for C and definitely no championships at any level. The B and C should not even exist in the Vet classes. The current situation is pathetic with huge C classes, decent B and hardly anybody in A.
me_da_racer
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me_da_racer 8/13/2014 5:48pm
8/13/2014 5:48pm
That is a good point about the C class. Even goes up to the +30. The +30 C class will have 20-30 riders and the +30 B class will have 4. lol

Sand bagging knows no age!
mx757
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mx757 8/13/2014 5:49pm
8/13/2014 5:49pm
Its a problem everywhere you go. Here in Colorado I see it all the time as an announcer. Youll see 2-3 kids absolutely checked out from the rest of the novice class, and the rest of the class will be having battles from 3rd through 30th, It gets a little infuriating seeing the same kids going out after winning the novice class race schoolboy, and run with guys that finished 2nd or 3rd in the B class. Kinda makes you go "Why in the hell is he sandbagging?"
vet323
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vet323 8/13/2014 5:50pm
8/13/2014 5:50pm
motomike137 wrote:
C should be a true beginner class and as soon as your ride about 5 C races your in B end of story! No points for...
C should be a true beginner class and as soon as your ride about 5 C races your in B end of story! No points for C and definitely no championships at any level. The B and C should not even exist in the Vet classes. The current situation is pathetic with huge C classes, decent B and hardly anybody in A.
No Vet B class? At the local level? You cannot be serious.
me_da_racer
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me_da_racer 8/13/2014 5:51pm
8/13/2014 5:51pm
So does the problem come from Loretta's? Should MxSports say you can only try for C class for two years?
TripleFive 8/13/2014 5:53pm
8/13/2014 5:53pm
It's kiiiindaa off topic, but I think it would be cool if there was only one trophy per class. I don't understand why 8th place in 125C deserves a trophy.

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Steve 396
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Steve 396 8/13/2014 6:04pm
8/13/2014 6:04pm
Hard to stop sand bagging unless you get the track owners that hold races to set rules and enforce them. Wish that was made clear before a series starts so everyone knows about it. The way I see it is that once you have a year of riding the "D" class or beginner class you will never be allowed to race that again. Like if you raced 65cc beginner and raced the next year in the 65cc 7-9 age group class. Once you move to 85's you cannot go back to the "D" or beginner class. Another way to do it is to just have them move up after 3-5 wins in a series.

My son has been racing since 2008 and started on a 65 and the above is how we have approached it with him. He is now on a 250F in the "C" class. We tried to qualify for Loretta's and made it to the regional and that was it. So, we will probably be in the "C" class again. It is the nature of the way things work at the local level and then trying to make it to Loretta's. Like everyone knows you might be a top rider in your class at the local level but once you start to do the bigger races you find that you are not as good as you think you are.

Sand bagging does nothing but hold a rider back that is doing it in my opinion. If you want to get faster you have to ride with faster riders......

slowpoke105
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slowpoke105 8/13/2014 6:10pm
8/13/2014 6:10pm
"Sand bagging does nothing but hold a rider back that is doing it in my opinion. If you want to get faster you have to ride with faster riders...."

That is a correct statement. I was a sandbagger, and never even became a good C rider. The only one to blame was myself.
Steve 396
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Steve 396 8/13/2014 6:15pm
8/13/2014 6:15pm
In the vet classes here there is no A-D level distinction. So, 25+ thru 50+ you can race with Ex pro riders down to beginners. And for the person that said above that once you race a few races in "C" class you should move to "B" period. Are you serious? Some folks never advance past "C" class riding ability. Take myself as an example. I am 44 and ride the 40+ class and every once in a great while I decide to race 2 classes. 450C is what I choose. I am a mid pack "C" rider on some days but toward the back on others. It's not about the trophy, it's about the fun I have riding and racing other folks. As long as I have someone to "race with" that is what is important. Moving to the "B" class would ensure that I have nobody to race with so think about that before you say such things please.....
motomike137
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motomike137 8/13/2014 6:23pm
8/13/2014 6:23pm
vet323 wrote:
No Vet B class? At the local level? You cannot be serious.
Totally serious. What is the point of splitting the vet classes up? I suppose I am too old school but I would rather just have everybody on one gate drop in a age group and get scored together. If a old pro or expert rider is there and beats me than that is just the way it is, I'm just not fast enough to win or get 4th or whatever it may be that day and I need to work harder if I want better results. I remember the day when it was a badge of honor to make it to the expert class and nobody bragged much about winning B and there was no such thing as C class.
Radical
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Radical 8/13/2014 6:49pm
8/13/2014 6:49pm
I race the 40+ beginner class. I ride a 125 and I'm 52. I haven't won yet so I'm where I belong. I finish midpack in the 250f beginner class so I'm not ready to move up there either. Granted, I'm not riding much so my speed isn't there. I think it would be unfair if I won 3 races out of 4-5 of a seres and got moved up mid season. However, I would expect to be moved up for the next series. That said, at my age (and 40+) most riders aren't getting much faster no matter how much they practice so the same group in the novice class can compete year after year and not win consistently. The guy who won 40+ beginner series in 2011 was admittedly just about the slowest rider out there but consistently earned points each week. Enough to win the series. Should he be forced to move up to novice? He would be lapped at least 3 times.
MX558
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MX558 8/13/2014 6:51pm
8/13/2014 6:51pm
Plenty of sandbaggers in district 17/16 Midwest always has been . I will say in road racing not so much but after you have to move to expert its so expensive people usually quit in a couple of years .
motomike137
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motomike137 8/13/2014 6:58pm
8/13/2014 6:58pm Edited Date/Time 8/13/2014 7:11pm
Radical wrote:
I race the 40+ beginner class. I ride a 125 and I'm 52. I haven't won yet so I'm where I belong. I finish midpack in...
I race the 40+ beginner class. I ride a 125 and I'm 52. I haven't won yet so I'm where I belong. I finish midpack in the 250f beginner class so I'm not ready to move up there either. Granted, I'm not riding much so my speed isn't there. I think it would be unfair if I won 3 races out of 4-5 of a seres and got moved up mid season. However, I would expect to be moved up for the next series. That said, at my age (and 40+) most riders aren't getting much faster no matter how much they practice so the same group in the novice class can compete year after year and not win consistently. The guy who won 40+ beginner series in 2011 was admittedly just about the slowest rider out there but consistently earned points each week. Enough to win the series. Should he be forced to move up to novice? He would be lapped at least 3 times.
Beginner, and also a novice class? Seems like the same thing to me? How many different 40+ classes do you have? I mean are there really enough riders to support all of it? Here in MI we have a pretty decent number of Vets and we break things up in 5 year increments. We did start having a 30+ b/c a few years ago but I think it was just to encourage guys in that age group to keep racing or help encourage new guys to keep coming back. The one caveat now is that they WILL get moved out of the class based on their performance.
imoto34
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imoto34 8/13/2014 8:43pm
8/13/2014 8:43pm
Tennessee has some very fast c riders that stay in the class for years. Iv been an A class rider for years and have a c class friend thats been faster then me for over a year now.. Victory Sports(our local promoter) bumped him to B and he wrote them a letter and they have allowed him to go back to the c class. He is able to gap me on my personal track daily and i am a top 5 guy anywhere i go
Titan1
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Titan1 8/13/2014 9:05pm
8/13/2014 9:05pm
In my desert series we get "move up points" for our finishes...1st place gets 6 points, 2nd gets 5 points, 3rd gets 4 points, 4th 3, 5th 2, 6th 1.

As soon as you get 12 points in the c class you get moved up for the next season (unless you are dominantly winning races they will move you up mid season) and as soon as you get 30 points in the b class you get moved up to A for the following season.

It works good.
imoto34
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imoto34 8/13/2014 9:13pm
8/13/2014 9:13pm
Titan1 wrote:
In my desert series we get "move up points" for our finishes...1st place gets 6 points, 2nd gets 5 points, 3rd gets 4 points, 4th 3...
In my desert series we get "move up points" for our finishes...1st place gets 6 points, 2nd gets 5 points, 3rd gets 4 points, 4th 3, 5th 2, 6th 1.

As soon as you get 12 points in the c class you get moved up for the next season (unless you are dominantly winning races they will move you up mid season) and as soon as you get 30 points in the b class you get moved up to A for the following season.

It works good.
That sounds great. Here where im from, guys would prefer to race a 8 minute moto drunk in the c or d class then to actually move up and have a real race with someone. Practice days tell the story at my track.
langhammx
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langhammx 8/13/2014 9:15pm
8/13/2014 9:15pm
me_da_racer wrote:
So does the problem come from Loretta's? Should MxSports say you can only try for C class for two years?
ANSWER is No, it doesn't stem from Lorrettas or any other AMA Amateur National event.

That RULE already exists with the AMA. I'll try and find the EXACT ruling, but it's basically a 2 year "On ANY size" motorcycle and you have to ride the B class on a big bike, unless you ride schoolboy or college boy.

EXAMPLE- My son moved from an 85 (12-13 class) to a 125 in 2003. He was pretty fast and had been winning a lot of local races, but was well off the top 10 pace of the Amateur Nationals. After riding the 125 for maybe 2 months, mostly schoolboy and also a few NOVICE races, we signed up to race Lake Whitney as a NOVICE. He had been winning most of the NOVICE races and also beating some of the INT (Cool class kids in the schoolboy at the LOCAL LEVEL. After buying Plane tickets for 4 and committing to paying for my bikes and gear, etc to be driven with a few others who were driving up, I received a call from AMA, (3 days before I was scheduled to fly out) stating that my son was ineligible to race the NOVICE (C) class. He was only 12 and wasn't sandbagging, he wouldn't have won and would've been in the way in the B class at that race. I lost some money on that deal.....

His (Ryan Holiday from AMA) explanation was that someone had called and brought to his attention that my son had been racing for several years and shouldn't be allowed to race the C class. At least he actually called me before we got there and weren't allowed to race. That happened to several riders that year, between a few of the AMA Amateur National races.
Anthony Siracuse 8/13/2014 9:23pm
8/13/2014 9:23pm
me_da_racer wrote:
So does the problem come from Loretta's? Should MxSports say you can only try for C class for two years?
langhammx wrote:
ANSWER is No, it doesn't stem from Lorrettas or any other AMA Amateur National event. That RULE already exists with the AMA. I'll try and find...
ANSWER is No, it doesn't stem from Lorrettas or any other AMA Amateur National event.

That RULE already exists with the AMA. I'll try and find the EXACT ruling, but it's basically a 2 year "On ANY size" motorcycle and you have to ride the B class on a big bike, unless you ride schoolboy or college boy.

EXAMPLE- My son moved from an 85 (12-13 class) to a 125 in 2003. He was pretty fast and had been winning a lot of local races, but was well off the top 10 pace of the Amateur Nationals. After riding the 125 for maybe 2 months, mostly schoolboy and also a few NOVICE races, we signed up to race Lake Whitney as a NOVICE. He had been winning most of the NOVICE races and also beating some of the INT (Cool class kids in the schoolboy at the LOCAL LEVEL. After buying Plane tickets for 4 and committing to paying for my bikes and gear, etc to be driven with a few others who were driving up, I received a call from AMA, (3 days before I was scheduled to fly out) stating that my son was ineligible to race the NOVICE (C) class. He was only 12 and wasn't sandbagging, he wouldn't have won and would've been in the way in the B class at that race. I lost some money on that deal.....

His (Ryan Holiday from AMA) explanation was that someone had called and brought to his attention that my son had been racing for several years and shouldn't be allowed to race the C class. At least he actually called me before we got there and weren't allowed to race. That happened to several riders that year, between a few of the AMA Amateur National races.
Thats pretty BS seeing that fact that your son is 12

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