How much better or I guess tricker would the factory bikes be if there was no factory rule?

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1/12/2018 10:29 AM

I mean these bikes are super trick but how would they be "better"?

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1/12/2018 10:31 AM
Edited Date/Time: 1/12/2018 10:31 AM

Probably not that much. It's not the 80s anymore. MXGP bikes are still relatively production based,

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1/12/2018 10:31 AM

im not sure, but how much more of a disadvantage would it be for the privateers?

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1/12/2018 10:31 AM

They would have automatic transmissions to keep up with the Alta's. w00t

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

1/12/2018 10:40 AM

BobbyM wrote:

I mean these bikes are super trick but how would they be "better"?

who knows, probably pretty close to what they do in MXGP. more options for chassis geometry and whatnot. different cylinders and cases for various reasons. We'd definitely see some billet swingarms on occasion. lots more prototyping and more experimentation with new parts at actual races.

the real question is, how shitty would production bikes be? I have to imagine the'd be a lot further behind - although, possibly selling better because they would be much cheaper. ...then again,, they would take more money to actually go racing because you'd have to do so much to them to get them race ready.

consumers are the winners from the production rule. no doubt about it.



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1/12/2018 10:40 AM

More than anything would be significant weight advantages if no min weight rule, I would say.........or possible even better factory ECU's and self tourquing sprocket boltsshocked
shocked

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1/12/2018 10:48 AM

BobbyM wrote:

I mean these bikes are super trick but how would they be "better"?

Katoomey wrote:

who knows, probably pretty close to what they do in MXGP. more options for chassis geometry and whatnot. different cylinders and cases for various reasons. We'd definitely see some billet swingarms on occasion. lots more prototyping and more experimentation with new parts at actual races.

the real question is, how shitty would production bikes be? I have to imagine the'd be a lot further behind - although, possibly selling better because they would be much cheaper. ...then again,, they would take more money to actually go racing because you'd have to do so much to them to get them race ready.

consumers are the winners from the production rule. no doubt about it.



But many factory skunk werks stuff made it to the consumer side.

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1/12/2018 10:59 AM

mauidex wrote:

More than anything would be significant weight advantages if no min weight rule, I would say.........or possible even better factory ECU's and self tourquing sprocket boltsshocked
shocked

thats not a formula follwed by any "unlimited" or "open" racing league I am aware of. Almost all still have minimum weight and maximum displacement rules, including F1, MotoGP, and MXGP. The AMA has had a minimum weight limit since 1973, simultaneously with the FIM. ...12 years before homolagation was implemented in the AMA.



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1/12/2018 11:01 AM

BobbyM wrote:

I mean these bikes are super trick but how would they be "better"?

Katoomey wrote:

who knows, probably pretty close to what they do in MXGP. more options for chassis geometry and whatnot. different cylinders and cases for various reasons. We'd definitely see some billet swingarms on occasion. lots more prototyping and more experimentation with new parts at actual races.

the real question is, how shitty would production bikes be? I have to imagine the'd be a lot further behind - although, possibly selling better because they would be much cheaper. ...then again,, they would take more money to actually go racing because you'd have to do so much to them to get them race ready.

consumers are the winners from the production rule. no doubt about it.



BobbyM wrote:

But many factory skunk werks stuff made it to the consumer side.

If the economy keeps cranking...and you had no "Production Rule"....

You could end up back in the Factory Honda '80s.

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I ripped a start from Egypt and I was happy about that.

1/12/2018 11:03 AM

BobbyM wrote:

But many factory skunk werks stuff made it to the consumer side.

are you arguing agaisnt my point just to argue? we could go on all day with the exceptions to rules about any topic you pick.

it's not my opinion that production motocross bikes instantly got better (and lighter) after 1985.

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1/12/2018 11:05 AM

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1/12/2018 11:09 AM

I can't believe factory bikes would be all that much better if we removed the production rule. Teams are already acid washing frames, modifying partially completed OEM cylinders so they can get their own spec, modifying frames & swingarms any way they want, and way more when you consider their trickery with ECU's - completely programmable traction control, etc, etc, etc.

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1/12/2018 11:11 AM

They would be more factory-er!

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1/12/2018 11:14 AM

Paul333 wrote:

I can't believe factory bikes would be all that much better if we removed the production rule. Teams are already acid washing frames, modifying partially completed OEM cylinders so they can get their own spec, modifying frames & swingarms any way they want, and way more when you consider their trickery with ECU's - completely programmable traction control, etc, etc, etc.

Try this...

Carbonfiber monocoque frames...
Rapid-Prototype engine components
Titanium Rods
Split/Multi-injection systems
Split-EX and INT ports
Etc., etc., etc. ...

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I ripped a start from Egypt and I was happy about that.

1/12/2018 11:15 AM

seth505 wrote:

They would be more factory-er!

Exactly! And there wouldn't be ANY issues with sprocket bolt torque, either.

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I ripped a start from Egypt and I was happy about that.

1/12/2018 11:15 AM

Seems like KTM and Husky are already breaking the spirit of the rule with their FE and RE bikes. Sure they are legal for the way the rule is written but I didn't see any of the privateers with the RE or FE bikes.

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1/12/2018 11:26 AM

Paul333 wrote:

I can't believe factory bikes would be all that much better if we removed the production rule. Teams are already acid washing frames, modifying partially completed OEM cylinders so they can get their own spec, modifying frames & swingarms any way they want, and way more when you consider their trickery with ECU's - completely programmable traction control, etc, etc, etc.

TeamGreen wrote:

Try this...

Carbonfiber monocoque frames...
Rapid-Prototype engine components
Titanium Rods
Split/Multi-injection systems
Split-EX and INT ports
Etc., etc., etc. ...

Obviously that's possible but we aren't seeing it on a noticeable scale in MXGP and teams are free to do what ever they want.

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1/12/2018 11:28 AM

Paul333 wrote:

I can't believe factory bikes would be all that much better if we removed the production rule. Teams are already acid washing frames, modifying partially completed OEM cylinders so they can get their own spec, modifying frames & swingarms any way they want, and way more when you consider their trickery with ECU's - completely programmable traction control, etc, etc, etc.

TeamGreen wrote:

Try this...

Carbonfiber monocoque frames...
Rapid-Prototype engine components
Titanium Rods
Split/Multi-injection systems
Split-EX and INT ports
Etc., etc., etc. ...

Paul333 wrote:

Obviously that's possible but we aren't seeing it on a noticeable scale in MXGP and teams are free to do what ever they want.

Because MXGP doesn't even come close to justifying the budget. The amount of bikes sold due to MXGP is a tiny fraction of what's sold over here.

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I ripped a start from Egypt and I was happy about that.

1/12/2018 11:33 AM

Carbon swingarms smile

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1/12/2018 11:36 AM

TeamGreen wrote:

Try this...

Carbonfiber monocoque frames...
Rapid-Prototype engine components
Titanium Rods
Split/Multi-injection systems
Split-EX and INT ports
Etc., etc., etc. ...

Id rather see the money go to support more riders/teams than a tech arms race. MotoGP had to adjust their rules because it was getting out of hand and the racing has never been better.

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1/12/2018 11:41 AM

It would maybe not be more exotic in that sense, but it would enable the teams to customize the bikes to better suit their riders. Like Cairoli and Herlings bike. Very different frames.

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1/12/2018 11:44 AM

Ktms would push the weight lower if they removed the weight limits. They should update the limits.

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1/12/2018 12:06 PM

If it was allowed, factory bikes would have electronically-controlled suspension.

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1/12/2018 12:12 PM

They would look like what you see at the Japan races, today, where there is no such rule.

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1/12/2018 12:17 PM
Edited Date/Time: 1/12/2018 12:34 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

They would have automatic transmissions to keep up with the Alta's. w00t

IMO shifters and clutches will be gone. Maybe chains too? Quick change batteries and motors inside the hubs will soon be a reality.

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

1/12/2018 12:54 PM

BobbyM wrote:

I mean these bikes are super trick but how would they be "better"?

You know what i think about this?

Production bikes wouldnt be near the level they are at today BECAUSE of that rule. If the AMA ever really did anything right it was this and for everyone not just the US it really accellerated production bike evoulution.

They could prob relax a little on some things with the production rule but at this point all you hear about is “Bikes are so good these days”

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1/12/2018 12:58 PM

KYB had an air shocks way back before most were born. Fox had Air Shox too.
Lower left.

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1/12/2018 2:36 PM

Extended swing arms
Front wheel drive
Remote control, no rider

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1/12/2018 2:53 PM

BobbyM wrote:

I mean these bikes are super trick but how would they be "better"?

Lightning78 wrote:

You know what i think about this?

Production bikes wouldnt be near the level they are at today BECAUSE of that rule. If the AMA ever really did anything right it was this and for everyone not just the US it really accellerated production bike evoulution.

They could prob relax a little on some things with the production rule but at this point all you hear about is “Bikes are so good these days”

I disagree. I think bringing back full works bikes would actually make production bikes even better. They would have the best riders in the world doing all the R&D, and all the technology tested would trickle down into production bikes. When the production rule was implemented, Honda took all their R&D from all of their works bikes, and made a production bike that was bounds ahead of the competition. Just my opinion.

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1/12/2018 2:59 PM

BobbyM wrote:

I mean these bikes are super trick but how would they be "better"?

Lightning78 wrote:

You know what i think about this?

Production bikes wouldnt be near the level they are at today BECAUSE of that rule. If the AMA ever really did anything right it was this and for everyone not just the US it really accellerated production bike evoulution.

They could prob relax a little on some things with the production rule but at this point all you hear about is “Bikes are so good these days”

rhargrave431 wrote:

I disagree. I think bringing back full works bikes would actually make production bikes even better. They would have the best riders in the world doing all the R&D, and all the technology tested would trickle down into production bikes. When the production rule was implemented, Honda took all their R&D from all of their works bikes, and made a production bike that was bounds ahead of the competition. Just my opinion.

There was a time when a production bike was Production Version of last-year's works bike.

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I ripped a start from Egypt and I was happy about that.