How many factory guys running air forks?

Mit12
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Mit12
Edited Date/Time 2/6/2016 1:58pm
I say only the teams know if their are spring or air.

All a team would need to do to make the spring forks look like the air fork is make fork caps for the spring fork that look like the air fork caps and make a lower fork lug with a fake chamber. NO ONE WOULD KNOW!

Suzuki, Honda and Kawasiki are selling their bikes with air forks, they want the riders using them so they will keep selling bikes with air forks. They can get all the R&D they need from test riders and hopefully get settings that the Factory riders like. Until then use fake air forks.
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CarlinoJoeVideo
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CarlinoJoeVideo 8/21/2015 8:22am
8/21/2015 8:22am
The thing is, even before air forks no one ran the production forks. Everyone uses A-kit stuff. Even privateers use A-kit. So theres really no reason to try and fake the consumer into thinking the pros are using something there not...
djdesignsco.mx 8/21/2015 8:44am
8/21/2015 8:44am
Who all uses A kit as a privateer??

Only people I see using them besides factory are the rocky mtn team and possibly a few other satelites, but definitely not ALL privateers I'm sure.
ML512
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ML512 8/21/2015 8:56am
8/21/2015 8:56am Edited Date/Time 8/21/2015 9:30am
Please remove the damn tin foil hats! Considering I've held most of them apart in my hands, I'll give you the list...

I'll keep adding as I remember...

Showa SFF TAC forks:
Josh Grant (since joining Factory Kawasaki.. he had the option and he's now on air)
Wil Hahn
Davi Millsaps (during SX at Kawi, now testing air forks at KTM)
Cole Seely for SX and part of outdoors (now he's on the KYB PSF1 air fork)
Chris Alldredge
Adam Cianciarulo
Tyler Bowers
Arnaud Tonus
Joey Savatgy
James Stewart
Blake Baggett (has tested Spring forks this season, but has always chose to race on air)
Ken Roczen all of SX and up until the last three outdoors
Broc Tickle
Tommy Hahn
Fredrick Noren
Rocky Mountain Honda SX team
Nick Gaines
Tony Archer
Kyle Peters
Cole Nichols
Justin Starling
Jake Weimer
Dakota Tedder

KYB PSF1 Forks:
Cooper Webb
Jeremy Martin
Alex Martin
Aaron Plessinger
Justin Barcia
Weston Peick
Phil Nicoletti
Trey Canard
Eli Tomac
Cole Seely (switched mid-outdoors from Showa TAC)
Jordon Smith
RJ Hampshire
Justin Bogle
Malcolm Stewart
Matt Bisceglia
Christian Craig
Luke Renzland
Michael Leib
Josh Hill (in SX before injury)
Killy Rusk
Strikt Slaton Yamaha team
Barns Pro Yamaha team

WP Air forks:
Andrew Short

Showa twin chamber spring forks:
Chad Reed
Josh Grant (while at TwoTwo)
Ken Roczen (final four rounds of the outdoor season)
Kyle Cunningham (I think)
Nick Schmidt
Nick Wey

KYB spring forks:
None at the top level that are coming to mind...
Justin345
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Justin345 8/21/2015 9:16am
8/21/2015 9:16am
ML just went all /endthread on us. Haha, everyone except a handful are on air. I'd be really curious how the A kit version of the TACs feel to the stock revalved TACs. ML - any insight in that since they are so close in production trim?

The Shop

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jeffro503
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jeffro503 8/21/2015 9:21am
8/21/2015 9:21am
I think some guys are confusing the $10,000 - $20,000 A-kit suspension , for full on factory suspension. They are not the same. The stuff on something like James Stewart's Suzuki...there isn't a privateer out there that owns that stuff. Some privateers have been known to use it ( lease it in a way , or loaned ) but they do not own it. The stuff me and you could buy , is not the same as top level factory suspension.

BTW , thank you for the break down on the suspension ML.
ML512
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ML512 8/21/2015 9:25am
8/21/2015 9:25am
jeffro503 wrote:
I think some guys are confusing the $10,000 - $20,000 A-kit suspension , for full on factory suspension. They are not the same. The stuff on...
I think some guys are confusing the $10,000 - $20,000 A-kit suspension , for full on factory suspension. They are not the same. The stuff on something like James Stewart's Suzuki...there isn't a privateer out there that owns that stuff. Some privateers have been known to use it ( lease it in a way , or loaned ) but they do not own it. The stuff me and you could buy , is not the same as top level factory suspension.

BTW , thank you for the break down on the suspension ML.
Both the production/A-Kit PSF1 for and SFF TAC forks, are fairly close to their works counterparts at this point. It's just a few little things. The shocks on the other hand are still quite a bit different. The production/kit KYB shocks use the standard piston size behind compression adjuster, while the works one such as Honda and JGR's are bigger and they use a billet body instead of cast. As for Showa, the A-kit shock uses a larger adjuster piston than production but still has a cast body, while the works ones have billet bodies. Some works Showa shocks are BFR this year as well.
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mx836 8/21/2015 9:27am
8/21/2015 9:27am
That should shut up the air fork naysayers. Even the Yamaha guys all run air even though the bikes come stock with spring forks.
ML512
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ML512 8/21/2015 9:27am
8/21/2015 9:27am
jeffro503 wrote:
I think some guys are confusing the $10,000 - $20,000 A-kit suspension , for full on factory suspension. They are not the same. The stuff on...
I think some guys are confusing the $10,000 - $20,000 A-kit suspension , for full on factory suspension. They are not the same. The stuff on something like James Stewart's Suzuki...there isn't a privateer out there that owns that stuff. Some privateers have been known to use it ( lease it in a way , or loaned ) but they do not own it. The stuff me and you could buy , is not the same as top level factory suspension.

BTW , thank you for the break down on the suspension ML.
ML512 wrote:
Both the production/A-Kit PSF1 for and SFF TAC forks, are fairly close to their works counterparts at this point. It's just a few little things. The...
Both the production/A-Kit PSF1 for and SFF TAC forks, are fairly close to their works counterparts at this point. It's just a few little things. The shocks on the other hand are still quite a bit different. The production/kit KYB shocks use the standard piston size behind compression adjuster, while the works one such as Honda and JGR's are bigger and they use a billet body instead of cast. As for Showa, the A-kit shock uses a larger adjuster piston than production but still has a cast body, while the works ones have billet bodies. Some works Showa shocks are BFR this year as well.
Example, call up Enzo and you can get the exact fork that Martin and Webb are using, outside of this special adjuster cap that has an extra bleed for added adjustment and you can get the exact shock they're using.
ML512
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ML512 8/21/2015 9:28am
8/21/2015 9:28am
mx836 wrote:
That should shut up the air fork naysayers. Even the Yamaha guys all run air even though the bikes come stock with spring forks.
I was working on the tests when the airfork was first offered to the Star Racing guys back in 2013... every rider on that team had the choice and they all picked air... and that was very early on in racing development for that fork.
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Joko 8/21/2015 9:30am
8/21/2015 9:30am
jeffro503 wrote:
I think some guys are confusing the $10,000 - $20,000 A-kit suspension , for full on factory suspension. They are not the same. The stuff on...
I think some guys are confusing the $10,000 - $20,000 A-kit suspension , for full on factory suspension. They are not the same. The stuff on something like James Stewart's Suzuki...there isn't a privateer out there that owns that stuff. Some privateers have been known to use it ( lease it in a way , or loaned ) but they do not own it. The stuff me and you could buy , is not the same as top level factory suspension.

BTW , thank you for the break down on the suspension ML.
ML512 wrote:
Both the production/A-Kit PSF1 for and SFF TAC forks, are fairly close to their works counterparts at this point. It's just a few little things. The...
Both the production/A-Kit PSF1 for and SFF TAC forks, are fairly close to their works counterparts at this point. It's just a few little things. The shocks on the other hand are still quite a bit different. The production/kit KYB shocks use the standard piston size behind compression adjuster, while the works one such as Honda and JGR's are bigger and they use a billet body instead of cast. As for Showa, the A-kit shock uses a larger adjuster piston than production but still has a cast body, while the works ones have billet bodies. Some works Showa shocks are BFR this year as well.
ML512 wrote:
Example, call up Enzo and you can get the exact fork that Martin and Webb are using, outside of this special adjuster cap that has an...
Example, call up Enzo and you can get the exact fork that Martin and Webb are using, outside of this special adjuster cap that has an extra bleed for added adjustment and you can get the exact shock they're using.
What do those cost? Aren't Webb and Martin running 50mm KYB forks?
mx836
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mx836 8/21/2015 9:30am
8/21/2015 9:30am
mx836 wrote:
That should shut up the air fork naysayers. Even the Yamaha guys all run air even though the bikes come stock with spring forks.
ML512 wrote:
I was working on the tests when the airfork was first offered to the Star Racing guys back in 2013... every rider on that team had...
I was working on the tests when the airfork was first offered to the Star Racing guys back in 2013... every rider on that team had the choice and they all picked air... and that was very early on in racing development for that fork.
I love the PSF1. I think most people who talk negatively about them have probably never owned a bike new enough to have come with an air fork.
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ML512 8/21/2015 9:33am
8/21/2015 9:33am
Joko wrote:
What do those cost? Aren't Webb and Martin running 50mm KYB forks?
There are no teams racing with a 50mm KYB PSF1 fork. The 50mm fork was a spring fork, the last US team to use that was Kawi a few years back. All PSF1 kit and works forks are 48mm and use the same cartridge as the stock fork.

I'm not sure of the exact price right now, but they have to meet the AMA's maximum price rule for the 250F class, so at max they are $7500. The yen to US changes enough and I haven't checked in a bit.
BikeBefok 8/21/2015 9:34am
8/21/2015 9:34am
Justin345 wrote:
ML just went all /endthread on us. Haha, everyone except a handful are on air. I'd be really curious how the A kit version of the...
ML just went all /endthread on us. Haha, everyone except a handful are on air. I'd be really curious how the A kit version of the TACs feel to the stock revalved TACs. ML - any insight in that since they are so close in production trim?
On the topic of comparisons, is there any way in which you, or anyone else for that matter, would be able to convey the level of performance increase between the stock TAC's and a revalved set? I'm leaning towards having mine revalved, but as I am not racing and don't intend to, I may need some encouragement as justification.
Justin345
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Justin345 8/21/2015 9:49am
8/21/2015 9:49am
BikeBefok wrote:
On the topic of comparisons, is there any way in which you, or anyone else for that matter, would be able to convey the level of...
On the topic of comparisons, is there any way in which you, or anyone else for that matter, would be able to convey the level of performance increase between the stock TAC's and a revalved set? I'm leaning towards having mine revalved, but as I am not racing and don't intend to, I may need some encouragement as justification.
Personally, I will never ride ANY set of suspension that has not been valved/sprung for my weight and abilities. Air or spring. I can tell you that I had the stock TAC's set up for me by a big name company and they were excellent. I've since upgraded to a spring style A kit because I found one for a great deal, not because I didn't like the air. I thought the TAC's were incredible and my only complaint against them was that they would bottom out a little too easy. I probably could have dialed that in by messing with oil levels, etc. though. Another advantage of having them revalved is it takes a lot of the guess work out of messing with air pressures. That's the biggest complaint with TACs that I see is that they are hard to set up. Showa now has the new app which apparently is pretty slick. But if you get them revalved, your suspension tuner will provide you with base settings (i.e. air pressures) that should be pretty close to ideal (aside from adjusting compression/rebound based on track conditions).
mmcmx
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mmcmx 8/21/2015 9:55am
8/21/2015 9:55am Edited Date/Time 8/21/2015 9:56am
As I see it, the problem is not air, the problem is the SFF TAC. Unfurtunately, no stock bikes with PSF1 for 2016 right? Should I keep my KXF '14 forks ML?
KazFu
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KazFu 8/21/2015 9:57am
8/21/2015 9:57am
It'd be interesting to see how many guys won races with Spring forks compared to Air fork winners.. Wink
BikeBefok 8/21/2015 9:59am
8/21/2015 9:59am
BikeBefok wrote:
On the topic of comparisons, is there any way in which you, or anyone else for that matter, would be able to convey the level of...
On the topic of comparisons, is there any way in which you, or anyone else for that matter, would be able to convey the level of performance increase between the stock TAC's and a revalved set? I'm leaning towards having mine revalved, but as I am not racing and don't intend to, I may need some encouragement as justification.
Justin345 wrote:
Personally, I will never ride ANY set of suspension that has not been valved/sprung for my weight and abilities. Air or spring. I can tell you...
Personally, I will never ride ANY set of suspension that has not been valved/sprung for my weight and abilities. Air or spring. I can tell you that I had the stock TAC's set up for me by a big name company and they were excellent. I've since upgraded to a spring style A kit because I found one for a great deal, not because I didn't like the air. I thought the TAC's were incredible and my only complaint against them was that they would bottom out a little too easy. I probably could have dialed that in by messing with oil levels, etc. though. Another advantage of having them revalved is it takes a lot of the guess work out of messing with air pressures. That's the biggest complaint with TACs that I see is that they are hard to set up. Showa now has the new app which apparently is pretty slick. But if you get them revalved, your suspension tuner will provide you with base settings (i.e. air pressures) that should be pretty close to ideal (aside from adjusting compression/rebound based on track conditions).
Thanks for the reply. Downloaded that app the other day actually. Will have to look into which local suspension guys are trust worthy, haha. Here in South Africa, I fear my choices may be fairly limited to a couple of guys. As not many have sufficient knowledge and experience with the forks yet.

On a side note, seeing that you have had experience with the forks, is it normal to have some fork oil blown out of the balance chambers schrader valve after adjusting the pressure? Sometimes after removing the pump hose attachment from the valve, there is oil filling up the valve cavity.
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Titan1 8/21/2015 10:01am
8/21/2015 10:01am
Not to change the subject, entirely, but does anyone know how air forks are holding up in the off road world? (Hare and Hound, Enduro, WORCS, GNCC, Baja, etc.)

I know KTM factory riders aren't using them, but what about factory Honda and Kawi?

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ML512
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ML512 8/21/2015 10:12am
8/21/2015 10:12am
Titan1 wrote:
Not to change the subject, entirely, but does anyone know how air forks are holding up in the off road world? (Hare and Hound, Enduro, WORCS...
Not to change the subject, entirely, but does anyone know how air forks are holding up in the off road world? (Hare and Hound, Enduro, WORCS, GNCC, Baja, etc.)

I know KTM factory riders aren't using them, but what about factory Honda and Kawi?
There isn't a factory Kawi team in off-road anymore. Laughing JCR's Honda guys were using 250F Honda forks I believe (before they went to air as well).
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MXDAD140 8/21/2015 10:49am
8/21/2015 10:49am
djdesignsco.mx wrote:
Who all uses A kit as a privateer?? Only people I see using them besides factory are the rocky mtn team and possibly a few other...
Who all uses A kit as a privateer??

Only people I see using them besides factory are the rocky mtn team and possibly a few other satelites, but definitely not ALL privateers I'm sure.
My son ran the a-kit last year. Night and day difference over the air forks.
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mx317 8/21/2015 11:01am
8/21/2015 11:01am
MXDAD140 wrote:
My son ran the a-kit last year. Night and day difference over the air forks.
Was it the A-Kit air or the older A-Kit spring fork?
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NeedMoto 8/21/2015 11:55am
8/21/2015 11:55am
mx836 wrote:
I love the PSF1. I think most people who talk negatively about them have probably never owned a bike new enough to have come with an...
I love the PSF1. I think most people who talk negatively about them have probably never owned a bike new enough to have come with an air fork.
Yep! Same here... PSF1 are working easily as good as the SSS KYB I've used, and they were great!
coolhand
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coolhand 8/21/2015 12:03pm
8/21/2015 12:03pm
That's all BS...just sticker you truck up with a big ass monster sticker and you will go faster!

At least, that's what I see at the local races.

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Titan1 8/21/2015 12:10pm
8/21/2015 12:10pm Edited Date/Time 8/21/2015 12:12pm
Titan1 wrote:
Not to change the subject, entirely, but does anyone know how air forks are holding up in the off road world? (Hare and Hound, Enduro, WORCS...
Not to change the subject, entirely, but does anyone know how air forks are holding up in the off road world? (Hare and Hound, Enduro, WORCS, GNCC, Baja, etc.)

I know KTM factory riders aren't using them, but what about factory Honda and Kawi?
ML512 wrote:
There isn't a factory Kawi team in off-road anymore. :laugh: JCR's Honda guys were using 250F Honda forks I believe (before they went to air as...
There isn't a factory Kawi team in off-road anymore. Laughing JCR's Honda guys were using 250F Honda forks I believe (before they went to air as well).
Well, no factory Kawi team...but there are pro teams/riders who ride Kawi's (which is who I was talking about...) Wink
Mit12
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Mit12 8/21/2015 12:59pm
8/21/2015 12:59pm
ML512,

Who do you work for To be able to claim that you have held all those factory riders forks apart in your hands? "Your words" not mine.

I call BS on that list and your statement! If you can prove othewise I will apologize. For now I say BS. Nice list though.
ML512
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ML512 8/21/2015 1:16pm
8/21/2015 1:16pm
Mit12 wrote:
ML512, Who do you work for To be able to claim that you have held all those factory riders forks apart in your hands? "Your words"...
ML512,

Who do you work for To be able to claim that you have held all those factory riders forks apart in your hands? "Your words" not mine.

I call BS on that list and your statement! If you can prove othewise I will apologize. For now I say BS. Nice list though.
My previous job was with Enzo Racing, so I spent plenty of time testing with the KYB guys and have taken plenty of said forks apart. Also with my current job at Vital, I'm helping out with Pit Bits when I'm at the races and I have some very close friends at KYB, Showa, and WP. At every race I attend, I can walk in almost any rig and see what they're up to. During the week, I also see these guys testing and step into their test trucks all the time to see what's new component wise and talk to the techs on what they've been trying as of late.

If you don't believe me, I will just laugh at your thick noggin... It's my job to know what these guys are using and what changes... and I'm pretty darn good at my job.
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Cygnus 8/21/2015 1:23pm
8/21/2015 1:23pm
Mit12 wrote:
ML512, Who do you work for To be able to claim that you have held all those factory riders forks apart in your hands? "Your words"...
ML512,

Who do you work for To be able to claim that you have held all those factory riders forks apart in your hands? "Your words" not mine.

I call BS on that list and your statement! If you can prove othewise I will apologize. For now I say BS. Nice list though.
ML512 wrote:
My previous job was with Enzo Racing, so I spent plenty of time testing with the KYB guys and have taken plenty of said forks apart...
My previous job was with Enzo Racing, so I spent plenty of time testing with the KYB guys and have taken plenty of said forks apart. Also with my current job at Vital, I'm helping out with Pit Bits when I'm at the races and I have some very close friends at KYB, Showa, and WP. At every race I attend, I can walk in almost any rig and see what they're up to. During the week, I also see these guys testing and step into their test trucks all the time to see what's new component wise and talk to the techs on what they've been trying as of late.

If you don't believe me, I will just laugh at your thick noggin... It's my job to know what these guys are using and what changes... and I'm pretty darn good at my job.
Boom! Served! You like hot sauce on your crow Mit?
jeffro503
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jeffro503 8/21/2015 1:27pm
8/21/2015 1:27pm
Mit ...please go sit in the corner once you pull your head out of your butt.
has been
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has been 8/21/2015 1:30pm
8/21/2015 1:30pm
ML512, have you used the showa app and if so, how well does it work?
ML512
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ML512 8/21/2015 1:43pm
8/21/2015 1:43pm
has been wrote:
ML512, have you used the showa app and if so, how well does it work?
I was peaking at it the other day when one of the Showa guys was showing it to me. I haven't personally played with it, but it looks fairly refined. I might goof around with it tomorrow if I take a bike with TAC to the track.

Post a reply to: How many factory guys running air forks?