How many classes are needed?

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2/13/2018 5:55 AM
Edited Date/Time: 2/13/2018 5:58 AM

Is is the promoter's or the entrants who desire so many choices? It seems to only get bigger, never smaller.

If you are a spectator, what is the right mix?

If you are a entrant, when there is a new series, is "what are the classes?" the 1st question?

What method should determine when a new class is justified?

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

2/13/2018 6:24 AM

Riders want to race multiple classes. As the promoter offers more, the day gets longer, so riders want even more classes to race. It's a vicious cycle that's getting out of hand.

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2/13/2018 7:03 AM

Locally as many as possible to fill the needs of the entrants.

In SX I wish there were the top 40 in the country going for 1 title on 1 size bike....preferably 250’s. There are 40 guys in the night show that have no business being in front of paying customers

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2/13/2018 7:21 AM

For Local races I like to race 2 classes. So I think you should have your 250 A though C classes. Than a open A though C for anybody. Also still have normal 450 A though C with your mini bike classe.

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2/13/2018 9:42 AM

When the second dirt bike was made,,,,,they raced!

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2/13/2018 9:59 AM

If I was king for a day there would be an A, B, and C class for bike size/cc’s and one Vet class, +30.
The bajillion classes is one of the main reasons a lot of us don’t race the district. The day is stupid long. It’s nice when they split the Youth to their own day and big bikes the other day.
For specialized series for Youth or Vets, sure go crazy with a bunch of classes.

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2/13/2018 10:03 AM

For those that ride 2 classes, is it for more seat time, or something to do while waiting all day, or for a better chance to be competitive?

How many of the classes where you go have a full gate?

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

2/13/2018 10:36 AM
Edited Date/Time: 2/13/2018 10:41 AM

Johnny Depp wrote:

For those that ride 2 classes, is it for more seat time, or something to do while waiting all day, or for a better chance to be competitive?

How many of the classes where you go have a full gate?

Mainly something to do and seat time. Always want an hr of riding on the meter. Sometimes I’ll race 3 classes, but cuts down on BS’ing time with buddies. Multiple classes can be a benefit if you’re in shape. Can keep tabs on changing lines and track conditions and keeps you from going cold. Never see a full gate. Edit: The young gun C classes full sometimes.

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2/13/2018 10:36 AM

Johnny Depp wrote:

For those that ride 2 classes, is it for more seat time, or something to do while waiting all day, or for a better chance to be competitive?

How many of the classes where you go have a full gate?

I dotwo for more seat time, and also a second chance for a good result. It always seemed dumb to go through the trouble of prepping and loading and driving and paying to do one practice and two motos. Given the logistics, I'd still prefer a way to do four motos. But I think promoters need to start looking at ways to break up race days - maybe youth runs in the AM and big bikes in the PM. Really no need for everyone to be there for 8 hours. But....that would take some extra work and planning on the part of the promoters. It might help participation though.

As for one +30 class....as an aging rider, let me tell you there are very valid performance reasons for +30, +40 and +50. The decline is real. BUT I could accept a single skill level for the age classes as opposed to A, B and C.

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2/13/2018 11:25 AM

In a perfect world everyone would get two 15 minute motos. Lots of track time.

I know this is a blow to most riders ego but... you guys aren't in shape to race 15 minutes twice in a day after a 10 minute AM practice.

However, promoters would have to cut down on class numbers. Which would cause them to raise prices on entries. And if I had a dollar for every time someone on here bitched about how expensive our sport is, I could pay for everyone to race.

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2/13/2018 10:14 PM

I like the format Southwick uses for ride/practice days. Four classes: A&B combined, C, Vet & kids. 15 min each session, repeats on the hour. After 4 sessions, I’m done and ready to go home.
If they converted that format to racing, probably go with A, B, C, Vets and kids. Run any size bike in each class (except kids). Maybe split the four classes into morning for a couple groups, then afternoons for the other groups. Scheduling Vets and kids for the mornings would free up the second half of the day for that family (usually Dad and son) to leave and go fishing or something else, and the faster riders would have a rougher challenging track ready.

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2/13/2018 11:12 PM

This is a reason I don’t race much. I’d rather hit the pits with all my friends and have a good time riding all day. I go to a race start practice at 7 something AM and don’t get done until 7pm. And I do 2 classes and do a total of 16 laps. Such a long day of sitting around.

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2/13/2018 11:22 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/13/2018 11:28 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

For those that ride 2 classes, is it for more seat time, or something to do while waiting all day, or for a better chance to be competitive?

How many of the classes where you go have a full gate?

Ive raced as many as 4 classes in a day. Give me the options and I’ll gladly take them.

For the simple fact that I want as much track time as possible. Im there to race. And I have the conditioning.

Wouldn’t kill me if there were less classes tho. And it could be done if there was a system that forced people up into their proper class. There’s no reason to have C, Beginner, and 1st Timer classes all on the same day. That’s one class split 3 ways.

Give me a proper C class and a Vet 30+ and Im happy.

If I was a local promoter it’d look like this... cant really get it below 18 classes.

50cc (4t)
50cc (2t)
65cc
85cc
105cc
112cc (2t) / 150cc (4t)
125cc
250cc C (beginner)
350cc B (intermediate)
500cc B (intermediate)
500cc A (expert)
500cc ProAm (100% payback)
500cc V (veteran) 30+
500cc V (veteran) 40+
500cc V (veteran) 50+
Vintage 70s
Vintage 80s
Vintage 90s

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Part of Speech: Noun

Definition: A loser, poser, lame-ass. One who talks the talk, but could never walk the walk.

One who talks shit and doesn't back it up, but rather ends up eating their shit in return. A fuckin 'tard.


Usage: Slang

2/14/2018 7:39 AM

I raced a little BMX a few years ago and they have it really figured out. You're basically grouped by age and skill level. A 15 year old expert could potentially race a 30 year old expert depending on who all shows up. Or a 15 year old B rider might race a 25 year old B rider. They check up and down classes to form a legal gate per the rules of the sanctioning body.

For instance, the last time I raced there were 5 riders. Two 35+ Intermediates, a 45+ Novice, a 15+ Novice, and me - 30+ Novice. The intermediate guys jumped out to a good lead and I smoked the 45 Novice guy and I was catching the second 35+ intermediate guy. No matter what you're always going to race against similar level competition, no show up and be the only person in your class. It really pushes you and you get to race a lot of different people in situations that matter.

A track could adopt this and have a year end grand champion which all riders are eligible for, the caveat is that Expert riders get more points than intermediate, and novice. Basically its a self regulating sandbagger policy for the most part.

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2/14/2018 8:23 AM

Sounds like most you guys would have more fun racing Hare Scramble , you know exactly what time your race starts ,you get at least 2 hours seat time 3 hours at some events and most races involve some Motocross so you still get to do your jump 's .

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2/14/2018 8:34 AM

RCF wrote:

Sounds like most you guys would have more fun racing Hare Scramble , you know exactly what time your race starts ,you get at least 2 hours seat time 3 hours at some events and most races involve some Motocross so you still get to do your jump 's .

Im stoked that the Sprint Enduro format has finally made it out west.

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Part of Speech: Noun

Definition: A loser, poser, lame-ass. One who talks the talk, but could never walk the walk.

One who talks shit and doesn't back it up, but rather ends up eating their shit in return. A fuckin 'tard.


Usage: Slang

2/14/2018 8:37 AM

TJMX947 wrote:

I raced a little BMX a few years ago and they have it really figured out. You're basically grouped by age and skill level. A 15 year old expert could potentially race a 30 year old expert depending on who all shows up. Or a 15 year old B rider might race a 25 year old B rider. They check up and down classes to form a legal gate per the rules of the sanctioning body.

For instance, the last time I raced there were 5 riders. Two 35+ Intermediates, a 45+ Novice, a 15+ Novice, and me - 30+ Novice. The intermediate guys jumped out to a good lead and I smoked the 45 Novice guy and I was catching the second 35+ intermediate guy. No matter what you're always going to race against similar level competition, no show up and be the only person in your class. It really pushes you and you get to race a lot of different people in situations that matter.

A track could adopt this and have a year end grand champion which all riders are eligible for, the caveat is that Expert riders get more points than intermediate, and novice. Basically its a self regulating sandbagger policy for the most part.

Tjat self regulating sandbagging policy that BMX uses is something EVERY amateur sport should examine and adopt.

Tennis in Europe has a unique system as well that is incredibly effective (everyone of same age is in the same tournament bracket, higher ranked players get byes so that lower ranked players get a few matches against like competition, netter players are afraid to sandbag in that they run a high chance of getting knocked out early/upset).

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Part of Speech: Noun

Definition: A loser, poser, lame-ass. One who talks the talk, but could never walk the walk.

One who talks shit and doesn't back it up, but rather ends up eating their shit in return. A fuckin 'tard.


Usage: Slang

2/14/2018 10:17 AM

Jabroni wrote:

Tjat self regulating sandbagging policy that BMX uses is something EVERY amateur sport should examine and adopt.

Tennis in Europe has a unique system as well that is incredibly effective (everyone of same age is in the same tournament bracket, higher ranked players get byes so that lower ranked players get a few matches against like competition, netter players are afraid to sandbag in that they run a high chance of getting knocked out early/upset).

I assume you play tennis too, I've always thought the way we classify amateur adult tournament players in America leaves a lot of room for "subjectivity."

The guys I rode with back in my younger "whipper-snapper" days had dads that talked about how mx was in the mid 70s - mid 80s. They said basically there was 100 - 125 - 250 - 500 classes with Amateur and Pro divisions in addition to minicycle classes. IMO I think it would be a better program if we had that same format now. Maybe a true Beginner class for Minis and Big bikes with a 5 - 10 race limit then you're amateur.

50 - 65 - 80 - Supermini - 125 - 250 (Pro & AM) - 450 (Pro & AM) - Mini Beg A for 50/65s - Mini Beg B for 85s/100s - +30 , +40 something along those lines.

I always wish Loretta's would bring back a Vet Am class but at the same time it doesn't really matter, it would mean making it to the regional is that much more important to a regular Joe like myself. I do hate seeing 6 damn C classes!!!

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2/14/2018 12:04 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/14/2018 12:42 PM

Joko wrote:

I like the format Southwick uses for ride/practice days. Four classes: A&B combined, C, Vet & kids. 15 min each session, repeats on the hour. After 4 sessions, I’m done and ready to go home.
If they converted that format to racing, probably go with A, B, C, Vets and kids. Run any size bike in each class (except kids). Maybe split the four classes into morning for a couple groups, then afternoons for the other groups. Scheduling Vets and kids for the mornings would free up the second half of the day for that family (usually Dad and son) to leave and go fishing or something else, and the faster riders would have a rougher challenging track ready.

You know how they say researcher's often have their mind made up beforehand, and then set out to prove it?
Your post hits the nail on the head, and validates my thoughts.

I'm working on a format that I am hesitant to discuss too much at this point. It's objectives are more seat time, closer competition, full gates with oversize classes, and 4 hours of racing with 1 hour allocated per class, So A/B/C/D.

Discuss?

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

2/14/2018 12:17 PM

Some guys, typically the harder core guys, want more seat time. They want to race multiple classes each weekend. However, the average to casual racers hate sitting around all day because their local track runs 28 different classes. The two primary problems are clear at the local level- some guys want more track time, while others want less waiting around.

How do we fix those two issues? Not easily, that's for sure...

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www.bettercallsaul.com
Die Antwoord

2/14/2018 6:34 PM

TJMX947 wrote:

I raced a little BMX a few years ago and they have it really figured out. You're basically grouped by age and skill level. A 15 year old expert could potentially race a 30 year old expert depending on who all shows up. Or a 15 year old B rider might race a 25 year old B rider. They check up and down classes to form a legal gate per the rules of the sanctioning body.

For instance, the last time I raced there were 5 riders. Two 35+ Intermediates, a 45+ Novice, a 15+ Novice, and me - 30+ Novice. The intermediate guys jumped out to a good lead and I smoked the 45 Novice guy and I was catching the second 35+ intermediate guy. No matter what you're always going to race against similar level competition, no show up and be the only person in your class. It really pushes you and you get to race a lot of different people in situations that matter.

A track could adopt this and have a year end grand champion which all riders are eligible for, the caveat is that Expert riders get more points than intermediate, and novice. Basically its a self regulating sandbagger policy for the most part.

Jabroni wrote:

Tjat self regulating sandbagging policy that BMX uses is something EVERY amateur sport should examine and adopt.

Tennis in Europe has a unique system as well that is incredibly effective (everyone of same age is in the same tournament bracket, higher ranked players get byes so that lower ranked players get a few matches against like competition, netter players are afraid to sandbag in that they run a high chance of getting knocked out early/upset).

TJMX947 wrote:

I assume you play tennis too, I've always thought the way we classify amateur adult tournament players in America leaves a lot of room for "subjectivity."

The guys I rode with back in my younger "whipper-snapper" days had dads that talked about how mx was in the mid 70s - mid 80s. They said basically there was 100 - 125 - 250 - 500 classes with Amateur and Pro divisions in addition to minicycle classes. IMO I think it would be a better program if we had that same format now. Maybe a true Beginner class for Minis and Big bikes with a 5 - 10 race limit then you're amateur.

50 - 65 - 80 - Supermini - 125 - 250 (Pro & AM) - 450 (Pro & AM) - Mini Beg A for 50/65s - Mini Beg B for 85s/100s - +30 , +40 something along those lines.

I always wish Loretta's would bring back a Vet Am class but at the same time it doesn't really matter, it would mean making it to the regional is that much more important to a regular Joe like myself. I do hate seeing 6 damn C classes!!!

Yeah. I got into it pretty heavy this last year.

Entered a tournament. Naturally in the 3.0 division. Made it to the final and went up against a clown who was a 4.5 at worst.

Then you got the jerkoffs who go to the National Chapionships, they either win or runner up. That typically will automatically bump them up a division. Then they stop playing and just train for 2 years so they can drop back down to 3.0

And the USTA cant figure out why numbers keep dropping.

Worst sandbagging I’ve ever experienced was in tennis. Totally sucked for the people who played fair. Cause I ended up going nuts 6-days-a-week playing/training for the next tournament. Tried entering 4.0 or 3.5 cause (a) that was more my level and (b) there seemed to be less sandbagging the higher the division. Promoter wouldnt let me enter above my ranking. So I ended up destroying the 3.0 field. All my opponents felt like they got screwed.

The domino effect in full swing.

|

Part of Speech: Noun

Definition: A loser, poser, lame-ass. One who talks the talk, but could never walk the walk.

One who talks shit and doesn't back it up, but rather ends up eating their shit in return. A fuckin 'tard.


Usage: Slang

2/14/2018 8:33 PM

Yeah, its unfortunate. I honestly only play with my wife now so I have no idea where I stand. I've thought about playing a few tournaments to get the competitve juices flowing.

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2/14/2018 8:43 PM

Joko wrote:

I like the format Southwick uses for ride/practice days. Four classes: A&B combined, C, Vet & kids. 15 min each session, repeats on the hour. After 4 sessions, I’m done and ready to go home.
If they converted that format to racing, probably go with A, B, C, Vets and kids. Run any size bike in each class (except kids). Maybe split the four classes into morning for a couple groups, then afternoons for the other groups. Scheduling Vets and kids for the mornings would free up the second half of the day for that family (usually Dad and son) to leave and go fishing or something else, and the faster riders would have a rougher challenging track ready.

Johnny Depp wrote:

You know how they say researcher's often have their mind made up beforehand, and then set out to prove it?
Your post hits the nail on the head, and validates my thoughts.

I'm working on a format that I am hesitant to discuss too much at this point. It's objectives are more seat time, closer competition, full gates with oversize classes, and 4 hours of racing with 1 hour allocated per class, So A/B/C/D.

Discuss?

Sounds kind of like RPM in So Cal. I myself hate sitting around all day with only 2 or 3 other guys in my class if im lucky. I think the more old school type guys would love to see maybe a 3 20 minute moto format, it would work with your skill level divisions.

Perhaps you could run the A and B together, run C by itself because its usually the biggest class (around these parts atleast), run D and the Vet Class. It would basically give everyone a person to battle with. Aim for gates of 30 riders? Something fresh would be great.

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2/14/2018 8:47 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/14/2018 8:54 PM

Make a new class everytime you get a full gate to show up. “Hey promoter. We got 40 guys that wanna race three wheelers. Can you make us a class?”
Promoter: yup.

Otherwise no full gate or minimum number of riders the n...Nope.


Cut classes that don’t have 5 show up. Offer all them. But if you don’t get minimum number refund it. Cut the class. Shorten the day. I go to the sign up window and I’m like hey how many does 30 have signed up? Lady says: 2. I’m like gay. Not racing that class. What’s 25+ got ? Lady goes 2. Gay. Not racing that. So then I ask what’s the biggest class? Lady goes 7. Gay. I’m leaving. Who the fuck wants to race 7 people? I want to race a ton of people. State of moto sucks if you ain’t chasing Loretta’s. Local mostly sucks.

Gotta pick and choose awesome events....like....redbud vetfest. 20-40 in every class. Fast dudes too. fast running program. Done by 2pm. Home to Ohio before sundown. That’s how ya do it folks.

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GP740
Since 1987

2/14/2018 8:51 PM

I think NESC has our times pretty spot on with our 450 A and B motos being 15 and our Open class being 4 or 5 laps which works out to like 8 or 9 minutes. So people out of shape can do in Open or in shape guys use it as a warm up for the 450 class.

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2/15/2018 5:44 AM

GeorgiePorgie wrote:

Make a new class everytime you get a full gate to show up. “Hey promoter. We got 40 guys that wanna race three wheelers. Can you make us a class?”
Promoter: yup.

Otherwise no full gate or minimum number of riders the n...Nope.


Cut classes that don’t have 5 show up. Offer all them. But if you don’t get minimum number refund it. Cut the class. Shorten the day. I go to the sign up window and I’m like hey how many does 30 have signed up? Lady says: 2. I’m like gay. Not racing that class. What’s 25+ got ? Lady goes 2. Gay. Not racing that. So then I ask what’s the biggest class? Lady goes 7. Gay. I’m leaving. Who the fuck wants to race 7 people? I want to race a ton of people. State of moto sucks if you ain’t chasing Loretta’s. Local mostly sucks.

Gotta pick and choose awesome events....like....redbud vetfest. 20-40 in every class. Fast dudes too. fast running program. Done by 2pm. Home to Ohio before sundown. That’s how ya do it folks.

Did we just become best friends or what?

I agree, I want to be on a gate with 15+ people at the minimum. With 2-4 guys you're probably just going to ride around by yourself...that's no fun. The way you explained it is the way BMX does it. If enough don't show up to form a legal class they cut it and bump you and other people into a group until the minimum is met across all classes.

Last time I raced I was the only person in my class. They ran me with Open C/D and school boy. 6 of us on the gate. Pitiful...absolutely pitiful. I hope to do one of those Vet Festival Races this year, maybe the Davey Coombs HC race, that would be great.

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2/15/2018 6:31 AM

GeorgiePorgie wrote:

Make a new class everytime you get a full gate to show up. “Hey promoter. We got 40 guys that wanna race three wheelers. Can you make us a class?”
Promoter: yup.

Otherwise no full gate or minimum number of riders the n...Nope.


Cut classes that don’t have 5 show up. Offer all them. But if you don’t get minimum number refund it. Cut the class. Shorten the day. I go to the sign up window and I’m like hey how many does 30 have signed up? Lady says: 2. I’m like gay. Not racing that class. What’s 25+ got ? Lady goes 2. Gay. Not racing that. So then I ask what’s the biggest class? Lady goes 7. Gay. I’m leaving. Who the fuck wants to race 7 people? I want to race a ton of people. State of moto sucks if you ain’t chasing Loretta’s. Local mostly sucks.

Gotta pick and choose awesome events....like....redbud vetfest. 20-40 in every class. Fast dudes too. fast running program. Done by 2pm. Home to Ohio before sundown. That’s how ya do it folks.

If they cut classes because only Five Guys showed up there be no more a class

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2/16/2018 6:13 AM

If the promoter decides classes based on lap time qualifying (with qualifying scored as Moto 1 toward the overall) and took total entrants and divided it into 4 speed groups or "classes" could you see that working?

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

2/16/2018 6:23 AM

GeorgiePorgie wrote:

Make a new class everytime you get a full gate to show up. “Hey promoter. We got 40 guys that wanna race three wheelers. Can you make us a class?”
Promoter: yup.

Otherwise no full gate or minimum number of riders the n...Nope.


Cut classes that don’t have 5 show up. Offer all them. But if you don’t get minimum number refund it. Cut the class. Shorten the day. I go to the sign up window and I’m like hey how many does 30 have signed up? Lady says: 2. I’m like gay. Not racing that class. What’s 25+ got ? Lady goes 2. Gay. Not racing that. So then I ask what’s the biggest class? Lady goes 7. Gay. I’m leaving. Who the fuck wants to race 7 people? I want to race a ton of people. State of moto sucks if you ain’t chasing Loretta’s. Local mostly sucks.

Gotta pick and choose awesome events....like....redbud vetfest. 20-40 in every class. Fast dudes too. fast running program. Done by 2pm. Home to Ohio before sundown. That’s how ya do it folks.

Nailed it

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2/16/2018 6:34 AM

Johnny Depp wrote:

For those that ride 2 classes, is it for more seat time, or something to do while waiting all day, or for a better chance to be competitive?

How many of the classes where you go have a full gate?

mark_swart wrote:

I dotwo for more seat time, and also a second chance for a good result. It always seemed dumb to go through the trouble of prepping and loading and driving and paying to do one practice and two motos. Given the logistics, I'd still prefer a way to do four motos. But I think promoters need to start looking at ways to break up race days - maybe youth runs in the AM and big bikes in the PM. Really no need for everyone to be there for 8 hours. But....that would take some extra work and planning on the part of the promoters. It might help participation though.

As for one +30 class....as an aging rider, let me tell you there are very valid performance reasons for +30, +40 and +50. The decline is real. BUT I could accept a single skill level for the age classes as opposed to A, B and C.

Mark you nailed it. There should NOT be skill divisions in the vet classes but definitely a few different age level divisions. As for the young crowd C class should literally be a beginner division. Once you realize/prove you can circumnavigate a motocross track without endangering yourself or others you should be in B or A imho. Obviously I am very old school in my view point though and it doesn't fit very well with today's "everybody gets a trophy" mentality wink

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