How do we keep amateur racing amateur?

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1/28/2019 6:39 PM

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1/28/2019 6:52 PM

On the team's side, I've wondered that myself- how they invest so heavily in a kid and the kid changes teams not long after turning pro. Does team that brought the kid up actually see a return on that money spent? Or are their accountants going "WTF?!"

It would be nice to see a more organic approach, but short of a pact between teams, I'm not sure how it gets done.

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1/28/2019 7:00 PM

I left a comment on your article because, well... Vital

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1/28/2019 7:03 PM

Tough to regulate, For instance would you have a rule that Red Bull can't put a kid in a training facility, or pay for this and that? I think the toothpaste is out of the tube on that one.
But yeah, it's kinda ridiculous that the kids that get all that support are pretty much thrown to the wolves and have 1-2 years in the pros to sink or swim. Moto has always had a financial factor, Nowadays, it's just that much more difficult for the everyday Joe to come up with the funds to run four-strokes at this level. I read once that Josh Hill's family had $500k invested in him. But traveling motorsports will always be crazy expensive.
Remember when Shaun Kalos showed up in a bus and everybody said that racing had gotten too crazy?

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1/28/2019 7:17 PM
Edited Date/Time: 1/28/2019 7:18 PM

Your question is stated incorrectly. It should be:

How do we make amateur racing, amateur?

It has not been and is not amateur racing. Only in name.

Good article, thanks for the read

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1/28/2019 7:41 PM

I don’t think that “factory teams” like PC, GEICO, told etc... should be able to support amateur riders. The B and A class at the amateur nationals should have limits on what can be done to the bike. (Limit it to Pipe bars mapping and suspension.) That would level the playing field. Require that all amateur racers compete in the A class and then introduce a draft and let teams pick based on that.

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1/28/2019 8:11 PM

i think it all has a lot to do with competition format used in mini-motocros in usa.
if you look at how kids grow in europe, you will see them starting in their countries series, then the best do the european series and then they arrive at the top level series (mxgp), notice that its always series they have to race, series they have to learn how to manage. they start by riding for their national dealers, where the budgets are representative of their countries market and the best you can get is still a local team. only if you are good enough at home you have the chance to get european level support to race the euro series, still you have to really on you local support to go through the age classes at your local series. only the true giftted ones get to even see a factory level bike.....
in usa i think that they put to much atention on pure speed, they dont have a series to manage, its a few very important races where you do or die, where 2º is the 1º looser and where the big brands can dominate the sport just by throwing money at the kids to show off how great the brands are just by the exposure the brands get. then when those kids, who were stars all life, always going for the "winners take all", get to the pros and start to need to manage points and finishes week in and week out, having the confidence and experience take a 9º or a 10º instead off a dnf, some of them crack up mentaly and it takes time to heal them up.....
i think ama, or who is the board of mini motocross in usa, should think about some change in racing format for the kids, its been a while since a young gun has shaken the pros in usa, but in europe and australia things seam to be getting better and better....

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1/28/2019 8:14 PM

I do love that the Supercross Futures gives us a bigger sample size than the one race at Lorettas to evaluate these kids skills.

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1/28/2019 8:28 PM
Edited Date/Time: 1/28/2019 9:02 PM

Its next to impossible. The day parents start to truly realise the talent it takes to get to the top and the actual talent Little Jonny has, thats a start. Parents are wrapped up with keeping up with the Jones's and very, very heavily in debt because of there own choices. Little Johnny now becomes a meal ticket. This is the sad truth of it. Not to mention most ( not all) , parents are hanger-on'ers who are searching for 5 minutes of their own fame. Again, eliminate this first, then we have a starting point.
Just my opinion

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1/29/2019 1:00 AM

rileymx wrote:

i think it all has a lot to do with competition format used in mini-motocros in usa.
if you look at how kids grow in europe, you will see them starting in their countries series, then the best do the european series and then they arrive at the top level series (mxgp), notice that its always series they have to race, series they have to learn how to manage. they start by riding for their national dealers, where the budgets are representative of their countries market and the best you can get is still a local team. only if you are good enough at home you have the chance to get european level support to race the euro series, still you have to really on you local support to go through the age classes at your local series. only the true giftted ones get to even see a factory level bike.....
in usa i think that they put to much atention on pure speed, they dont have a series to manage, its a few very important races where you do or die, where 2º is the 1º looser and where the big brands can dominate the sport just by throwing money at the kids to show off how great the brands are just by the exposure the brands get. then when those kids, who were stars all life, always going for the "winners take all", get to the pros and start to need to manage points and finishes week in and week out, having the confidence and experience take a 9º or a 10º instead off a dnf, some of them crack up mentaly and it takes time to heal them up.....
i think ama, or who is the board of mini motocross in usa, should think about some change in racing format for the kids, its been a while since a young gun has shaken the pros in usa, but in europe and australia things seam to be getting better and better....

You're correct IMO.

I know the LL's are a prestige amateur championship. But the 'success' of most amateurs is labelled by the amount of LL's championships he has. It's probably that I'm from Europe that I don't really understand that, as it is a tradition to get to the pro mx scene.

I think it would be nice for the riders to be able to ride on the AMA outdoor tracks and have some sort of series (depending on the region the national is held in) for them as a sub-program on race day. In the GP's you have EMX125 and EMX250. Riders like Sanayei, Olsen, Gole, Guillod, Seewer, Hsu all came from these programs and progressed into the GP's. So, 4 classes during the AMA nationals racedays. 2 pro classes ( traditional 250 en 450 class) and two amateur classes with the best regional riders (125cc and 250cc)

Just a thought

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1/29/2019 2:42 AM
Edited Date/Time: 1/29/2019 2:43 AM

Agree 100%. Also a smart team would invest 0 dollars on kids, wait till they turn pro, and use the money saved to sign the best prospect/rider you can to a nice contract. Like you said both James and Ricky left so its pointless, people will sign anywhere. Both Kenny and Dungey had Suzuki loyalties for a bit, and for suzuki it even got them a championship with Kenny returning, but they both left and brand loyalty in the pros means nothing its about money and whos program is strongest right now.

Lok how Suzuki developed hoth Lawrence brothers also just to lose both to Honda.

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1/29/2019 6:18 AM

Claiming rule.

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

1/29/2019 7:08 AM

FWYT wrote:

On the team's side, I've wondered that myself- how they invest so heavily in a kid and the kid changes teams not long after turning pro. Does team that brought the kid up actually see a return on that money spent? Or are their accountants going "WTF?!"

It would be nice to see a more organic approach, but short of a pact between teams, I'm not sure how it gets done.

Why do people assume the ROI is dependent on the rider's pro career? Don't you think Ryder DiFrancesco sells KX80s when other kids see him winning? These investments have largely paid for themselves by the time the kid turns pro. From there, they are hoping the relationship is strong enough to keep it going into the pro ranks.

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1/29/2019 8:19 AM

Talisker wrote:

Its next to impossible. The day parents start to truly realise the talent it takes to get to the top and the actual talent Little Jonny has, thats a start. Parents are wrapped up with keeping up with the Jones's and very, very heavily in debt because of there own choices. Little Johnny now becomes a meal ticket. This is the sad truth of it. Not to mention most ( not all) , parents are hanger-on'ers who are searching for 5 minutes of their own fame. Again, eliminate this first, then we have a starting point.
Just my opinion

This!

It starts with the parents. They pull Little Johnny out of school so he can ride dirt bikes 24/7. Go in debt beyond belief chasing a 0.001% dream that your kid will be the next RC. I have run into this at the track as well as any local baseball or football field. You ask the parents if they have a backup plan. They look at you like you're an alien. Then when their kids burns out and also has no credible education, they are sitting around wondering why he or she is a Walmart greeter. And the parents have to file Chapter 11. Sorry, spend your money on a good college or technical trade school for your kids. They will be better off in the long run.

There should be no money in amateur racing. Including contingency! That is where it all starts. You have no local race pool anymore because everyone that does take racing seriously goes to the contingency races. Nothing else. I'm all for support and sponsorship but not free handouts to professional/factory novice riders. (AKA Loretta's) Then we wonder why everything is so expensive? And no, I do not believe in "Win on Sunday and Sell on Monday". Those days are over and most bike shops are closed on Mondays.

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1/29/2019 8:38 AM

get rid of LL professional novice championships and the insane sandbagging that it is may be a start to keeping amateur racing amateur.

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vomiting equals disqualification.

1/29/2019 8:49 AM

Less semis, more pickups and coolers.

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1/29/2019 8:51 AM
Edited Date/Time: 1/29/2019 8:53 AM

It's easy.


First we have convert to a series rather than Loretta's. One former customer of ours I love to this day - is a kid names Chase Felong. Never was spectacular at loretta's - in fact I'd say he sucked (no offense chase!) But this past outdoor season, his rookie year, He banged on the door of some 20th places on a full privateer effort with bikes that this year weren't quite what he needs to get into the top 15 (there are about 20 factory 250 riders now) due to budget. He raced the same bike all season...with hardly any rebuilds etc. Not gonna cut it vs a factory 2 hour motor.

EMX is the perfect model of what we need and I think we need the following classes included
supermini
125cc schoolboy
250f schoolboy
250f "all star" - open to a or b riders - lets get rid of the B class and combine them at this level.



Secondly we implement and EMBRACE and WELCOME a claim rule. We already have it - but it's taboo. Claim a team bike from gieco or PC - and watch any chance you EVER had at racing pro go out the window

The claim rule should be across the sport at all large amatuer races and regionals (if we keep that system)
Ratchet up the level of this claim rule per class. So for example - 65cc-85cc claim rules 1.5 cost of msrp
supermini-b classes claim rules 2 times msrp

A classes 2.5 times msrp


This allows the A level riders to buy kit suspension (if you race seriously - buying 1 set of spare suspension - kit or not - makes a lot of sense when you rotate through 5 bikes a year so you just install your good stuff on each new bike and saves you money vs revalving 5 sets - but we need this cushion in the claim in case you loose that suspension)
and allows A riders to get pretty serious into engines but not insane. This also allows for wheels and bling. We do NOT want a true stock rule for our industry.

It increases parity - because if you think a guy is beating you because of his bike - you can buy it - and not be penalized for it. And best of all - it rids any and all parents of excuses. I HATE hearing how some kid is getting 20th because his bike isn't as good as the winner. Now you can pay up and prove that theory of yours and go win.

B riders can buy suspension or motor with some bling - but hard to buy BOTH.

supermini's are so brutal - you need 2 times msrp just to build one - if you don't think so now - you don't know superminis

And with a series at the same pro races - team involvement will go UP for these kids - but WAY farther back than just the top 3-5

You may get a team that lets you pit with them - and hauls your bikes to the races
You may get a little parts help as needed at each race
You will get a lot more eyeballs on you who are the people who need to watch....
And you will get more experience on truly rough, tough tracks. This is totally GONE in our sport at local and regional level races


I personally WANT the teams involved - but by limiting the bike difference (which is truly only a small part of their benefit) we can rid that excuse - and lower some of the costs that some parents think hold their kids back


We cant fix all our sport issues without fixing the biggest issue. It's not a PROFESSIONAL sport. It's just racing
It takes BIG money to race this sport - and it doesn't immediately pay BIG money.
So we we will never be able to eliminate the fact that those with money will have kids who maybe do better. Just how it is...
People need to come to grips with this. Unless your kid is just spectacular - which still happens, you have to accept it costs money to get to the top. Talent alone will no longer get it done.

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1/29/2019 9:04 AM

That all sounds well though out , good job Derek.
I would like to see some true stock classes though.
At least as an option for the Shane Mcelrath types that are talented but but not wealthy, maybe they race just the stock class and not have to compete with a PC, or Geico bike.
Also i would definitely like to see a series.
Even if it was just 3 races maybe 1 spring . 1 summer and 1 fall. And add up the points. From all 3 to crown champions.

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1/29/2019 9:07 AM

^^^ good stuff from an insider, but all of this would be painful for most to embrace and The powers to be will have none of it as everything seems to be ok in their minds apparently. Naturally the haves usually win in life and moto over the have nots. Tough to overcome cubic dollars.

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vomiting equals disqualification.

1/29/2019 9:10 AM

Tarz483 wrote:

That all sounds well though out , good job Derek.
I would like to see some true stock classes though.
At least as an option for the Shane Mcelrath types that are talented but but not wealthy, maybe they race just the stock class and not have to compete with a PC, or Geico bike.
Also i would definitely like to see a series.
Even if it was just 3 races maybe 1 spring . 1 summer and 1 fall. And add up the points. From all 3 to crown champions.

I say yes to stock at the am nationals.

But not at the series suggest.

The only true way to implement a stock class - would be a sanctioning body that supplied the bikes....we used to joke at ponca - it was the "stock pipe class".

I love ktm jr challenge because it's all equal bikes - but sadly to accomplish this at nationals is hard. Which oem do you choose and why.... we should just have a budget cap class. Any bike on the line can be claimed for 7500 in 85cc limited (and that changes with inflation)

any bike can be claimed for 6200 in 65cc stock etc.

So you can choose say a ktm 85 and do hardly anything
Or a kx85 and do all you want to your hearts content.

as to a series - I want it like emx. We need east, central, west for the national races on the second day with the all star class racing on the same day as the pros, 4 race series.

Then we take the top 14 from each series and combine them into a super final somewhere else just for fun.





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1/29/2019 9:31 AM

Talisker wrote:

Its next to impossible. The day parents start to truly realise the talent it takes to get to the top and the actual talent Little Jonny has, thats a start. Parents are wrapped up with keeping up with the Jones's and very, very heavily in debt because of there own choices. Little Johnny now becomes a meal ticket. This is the sad truth of it. Not to mention most ( not all) , parents are hanger-on'ers who are searching for 5 minutes of their own fame. Again, eliminate this first, then we have a starting point.
Just my opinion

i think this is a pretty short sighted approach to the conversation, but carry on

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1/29/2019 9:44 AM

I think that horse has left the barn on this one.

It is really no different than any stick and ball sport. The only thing different is the cost of the bike and maintenance.
If your child has any talent for a sport it can consume the whole family. AAU sports as an example you can travel all over the US to play basketball every weekend during the summer chasing scouts and recruiters. They pay off isn't bikes and parts it's a college education and a trip to the pros's. My stepson played AAU basketball for 4 years it was a grind all summer. He broke his arm his senior year of high school and was recruited by a school he didn't want to attend. So he ran track at another school instead, without a scholarship. That was a lot of money spent for no pay off. This happens more than you want to know.

How do you fix it? Beats me there is too much money out there. Parents are willing to spend their brains out to get little Johnnie on a Factory Team, Mr. & Mrs. Football are willing to send Johnnie to an ultra expensive elite football camps every summer, hire a trainer and even change school districts to get him exposure. Mr & Mrs. Basketball will send Johnnie off to an Elite Basketball school to get him exposure, hire a shooting coach, a conditioning coach, pay huge $$ for gym time all to get them seen by College/Pro coaches. SX/MX is no different in that way.

The next thing is Teams are willing to invest in who they see has talent. This is where stick and ball sports have an edge. The NCAA highly regulates what a college can and can't do to attract talent. They are limited to how much time they can spend with them and what gifts they are allowed to give. Supporters of the programs can slide some stuff under the rug, but that sometimes get exposed. This tends to keep some sort of parity in the sport.

Does youth/amateur need their version of the NCAA? I would say yes, it would need to limit bike mods, Factory team involvement, and control the Youth/Amateur series. You need local qualifiers, regional qualifiers and national qualifiers all run under the same tent, with the same rules. Level the playing field and do the best they can to control costs. Claiming rules seem to not work so maybe stock motors and allow suspension, pipes, wheels and clutches to be upgraded? Just a thought. I don't have the answers just a few suggestions.

Hell I spent $150.00 building a Pinewood Derby car, so I know the how to throw money away on meaningless stuff. We did win 3 years straight, so it was not all a waste, have some good memories. I would be broke to this day if the kid liked motorcycles at all.........Good luck with this one



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1/29/2019 9:59 AM

Tarz483 wrote:

That all sounds well though out , good job Derek.
I would like to see some true stock classes though.
At least as an option for the Shane Mcelrath types that are talented but but not wealthy, maybe they race just the stock class and not have to compete with a PC, or Geico bike.
Also i would definitely like to see a series.
Even if it was just 3 races maybe 1 spring . 1 summer and 1 fall. And add up the points. From all 3 to crown champions.

Derek Harris wrote:

I say yes to stock at the am nationals.

But not at the series suggest.

The only true way to implement a stock class - would be a sanctioning body that supplied the bikes....we used to joke at ponca - it was the "stock pipe class".

I love ktm jr challenge because it's all equal bikes - but sadly to accomplish this at nationals is hard. Which oem do you choose and why.... we should just have a budget cap class. Any bike on the line can be claimed for 7500 in 85cc limited (and that changes with inflation)

any bike can be claimed for 6200 in 65cc stock etc.

So you can choose say a ktm 85 and do hardly anything
Or a kx85 and do all you want to your hearts content.

as to a series - I want it like emx. We need east, central, west for the national races on the second day with the all star class racing on the same day as the pros, 4 race series.

Then we take the top 14 from each series and combine them into a super final somewhere else just for fun.





I think a Trans am type class or just 1 off race, would be super cool in the pro class even if they weren't all the same brand , but just all stock.

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1/29/2019 10:14 AM

Derek Harris wrote:

It's easy.


First we have convert to a series rather than Loretta's. One former customer of ours I love to this day - is a kid names Chase Felong. Never was spectacular at loretta's - in fact I'd say he sucked (no offense chase!) But this past outdoor season, his rookie year, He banged on the door of some 20th places on a full privateer effort with bikes that this year weren't quite what he needs to get into the top 15 (there are about 20 factory 250 riders now) due to budget. He raced the same bike all season...with hardly any rebuilds etc. Not gonna cut it vs a factory 2 hour motor.

EMX is the perfect model of what we need and I think we need the following classes included
supermini
125cc schoolboy
250f schoolboy
250f "all star" - open to a or b riders - lets get rid of the B class and combine them at this level.



Secondly we implement and EMBRACE and WELCOME a claim rule. We already have it - but it's taboo. Claim a team bike from gieco or PC - and watch any chance you EVER had at racing pro go out the window

The claim rule should be across the sport at all large amatuer races and regionals (if we keep that system)
Ratchet up the level of this claim rule per class. So for example - 65cc-85cc claim rules 1.5 cost of msrp
supermini-b classes claim rules 2 times msrp

A classes 2.5 times msrp


This allows the A level riders to buy kit suspension (if you race seriously - buying 1 set of spare suspension - kit or not - makes a lot of sense when you rotate through 5 bikes a year so you just install your good stuff on each new bike and saves you money vs revalving 5 sets - but we need this cushion in the claim in case you loose that suspension)
and allows A riders to get pretty serious into engines but not insane. This also allows for wheels and bling. We do NOT want a true stock rule for our industry.

It increases parity - because if you think a guy is beating you because of his bike - you can buy it - and not be penalized for it. And best of all - it rids any and all parents of excuses. I HATE hearing how some kid is getting 20th because his bike isn't as good as the winner. Now you can pay up and prove that theory of yours and go win.

B riders can buy suspension or motor with some bling - but hard to buy BOTH.

supermini's are so brutal - you need 2 times msrp just to build one - if you don't think so now - you don't know superminis

And with a series at the same pro races - team involvement will go UP for these kids - but WAY farther back than just the top 3-5

You may get a team that lets you pit with them - and hauls your bikes to the races
You may get a little parts help as needed at each race
You will get a lot more eyeballs on you who are the people who need to watch....
And you will get more experience on truly rough, tough tracks. This is totally GONE in our sport at local and regional level races


I personally WANT the teams involved - but by limiting the bike difference (which is truly only a small part of their benefit) we can rid that excuse - and lower some of the costs that some parents think hold their kids back


We cant fix all our sport issues without fixing the biggest issue. It's not a PROFESSIONAL sport. It's just racing
It takes BIG money to race this sport - and it doesn't immediately pay BIG money.
So we we will never be able to eliminate the fact that those with money will have kids who maybe do better. Just how it is...
People need to come to grips with this. Unless your kid is just spectacular - which still happens, you have to accept it costs money to get to the top. Talent alone will no longer get it done.

That's no easy task. ARE YOU SERIOUS? Did you even think of how that style of "claim rule" would affect the entire motocross economy? Because it would most certainly destroy what's left of this sport. So if your bike costs more, you can buy more mods, right? So the kid next to you with the same 85, but different manufacturer, costs $500 less so now you cant mod your bike as much as the more expensive bike next to you on the gate..SO in turn you just made everyone that's serious about the sport buy the most expensive bikes available because the rules say you can mod them more than a cheaper bike. It just digs the sport into more money issues.

YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BUYING A FACTORY MOD BIKE AT THIS POINT. Are you crazy?
Example:
65: MSRP $3700 = $5550 in mods
85: MSRP $4300 = $6450 in mods
Supermini: MSRP $4500 = $6750 in mods
B class 250F: MSRP $9000 = $18k in mods
A class 250F: MSRP $9000 = $22.5k in mods

Talk about feeding the exact problem we are talking about. $18K in mods? That's outrageous even if you have the money.

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I'm just here to stir sh#t up...

1/29/2019 10:36 AM

For you European guys, is the EU amateur racing growing as in more interest higher race turnouts year over year?
In USA local amateur racing is way down. Sure there are a few amateur national races that gets everyone's attention; LL's, Mammoth, etc. and those races are where the amateur pros go to chase and satisfy their sponsors. To me that is a monopoly by basically a couple promoter groups. Basically one promoter owns our US amateur series and that one series is what gets the focus. But I also think it hurts local state racing. Not sure what to recommend to fix it. That would be one big chore.

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1/29/2019 11:09 AM

Derek Harris wrote:

It's easy.


First we have convert to a series rather than Loretta's. One former customer of ours I love to this day - is a kid names Chase Felong. Never was spectacular at loretta's - in fact I'd say he sucked (no offense chase!) But this past outdoor season, his rookie year, He banged on the door of some 20th places on a full privateer effort with bikes that this year weren't quite what he needs to get into the top 15 (there are about 20 factory 250 riders now) due to budget. He raced the same bike all season...with hardly any rebuilds etc. Not gonna cut it vs a factory 2 hour motor.

EMX is the perfect model of what we need and I think we need the following classes included
supermini
125cc schoolboy
250f schoolboy
250f "all star" - open to a or b riders - lets get rid of the B class and combine them at this level.



Secondly we implement and EMBRACE and WELCOME a claim rule. We already have it - but it's taboo. Claim a team bike from gieco or PC - and watch any chance you EVER had at racing pro go out the window

The claim rule should be across the sport at all large amatuer races and regionals (if we keep that system)
Ratchet up the level of this claim rule per class. So for example - 65cc-85cc claim rules 1.5 cost of msrp
supermini-b classes claim rules 2 times msrp

A classes 2.5 times msrp


This allows the A level riders to buy kit suspension (if you race seriously - buying 1 set of spare suspension - kit or not - makes a lot of sense when you rotate through 5 bikes a year so you just install your good stuff on each new bike and saves you money vs revalving 5 sets - but we need this cushion in the claim in case you loose that suspension)
and allows A riders to get pretty serious into engines but not insane. This also allows for wheels and bling. We do NOT want a true stock rule for our industry.

It increases parity - because if you think a guy is beating you because of his bike - you can buy it - and not be penalized for it. And best of all - it rids any and all parents of excuses. I HATE hearing how some kid is getting 20th because his bike isn't as good as the winner. Now you can pay up and prove that theory of yours and go win.

B riders can buy suspension or motor with some bling - but hard to buy BOTH.

supermini's are so brutal - you need 2 times msrp just to build one - if you don't think so now - you don't know superminis

And with a series at the same pro races - team involvement will go UP for these kids - but WAY farther back than just the top 3-5

You may get a team that lets you pit with them - and hauls your bikes to the races
You may get a little parts help as needed at each race
You will get a lot more eyeballs on you who are the people who need to watch....
And you will get more experience on truly rough, tough tracks. This is totally GONE in our sport at local and regional level races


I personally WANT the teams involved - but by limiting the bike difference (which is truly only a small part of their benefit) we can rid that excuse - and lower some of the costs that some parents think hold their kids back


We cant fix all our sport issues without fixing the biggest issue. It's not a PROFESSIONAL sport. It's just racing
It takes BIG money to race this sport - and it doesn't immediately pay BIG money.
So we we will never be able to eliminate the fact that those with money will have kids who maybe do better. Just how it is...
People need to come to grips with this. Unless your kid is just spectacular - which still happens, you have to accept it costs money to get to the top. Talent alone will no longer get it done.

nrosso391 wrote:

That's no easy task. ARE YOU SERIOUS? Did you even think of how that style of "claim rule" would affect the entire motocross economy? Because it would most certainly destroy what's left of this sport. So if your bike costs more, you can buy more mods, right? So the kid next to you with the same 85, but different manufacturer, costs $500 less so now you cant mod your bike as much as the more expensive bike next to you on the gate..SO in turn you just made everyone that's serious about the sport buy the most expensive bikes available because the rules say you can mod them more than a cheaper bike. It just digs the sport into more money issues.

YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BUYING A FACTORY MOD BIKE AT THIS POINT. Are you crazy?
Example:
65: MSRP $3700 = $5550 in mods
85: MSRP $4300 = $6450 in mods
Supermini: MSRP $4500 = $6750 in mods
B class 250F: MSRP $9000 = $18k in mods
A class 250F: MSRP $9000 = $22.5k in mods

Talk about feeding the exact problem we are talking about. $18K in mods? That's outrageous even if you have the money.

this is my business day in and day out


The amount of money being spent right now FAR exceeds what I've outlined
The factory teams who hire the amatuer riders - what this topic was started on - are racing damn near their full blown bikes they race at the pros.

The value of that bike - if a privateer effort wanted to even get CLOSE would approach 40-50k minimum

A supermini will cost you 12k to build a bike that can compete at lorettas
New ktm is 6300ish OTD for many people
Wheels are 1k for good brand
A decent engine package will set you back 3k

A revalve will set you back 1k. Any extra bs you put on the bike - be it graphics, bling, levers, better rear brake (KTM problem) and boom - your at 12k

Considering the fact that not only are most parents do this or MORE - but that they have 2-3 bikes of this caliber OR MORE - I think the rule is very fair.

The sad fact is - the rule ALREADy exists like I've outlined. The problem is the taboo of actually claiming a factory bike.
If A kid in 8th claims jet reynolds supermini - or seth hammaker's 250f - he is all but assured to never be given a ride in this industry by any factory effort. That's just how it is right now - and not how it SHOULD be.

Go look at aiden tjero's effort last few years. The easily spend 200k a year on racing.

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1/29/2019 11:30 AM

Derek Harris wrote:

this is my business day in and day out


The amount of money being spent right now FAR exceeds what I've outlined
The factory teams who hire the amatuer riders - what this topic was started on - are racing damn near their full blown bikes they race at the pros.

The value of that bike - if a privateer effort wanted to even get CLOSE would approach 40-50k minimum

A supermini will cost you 12k to build a bike that can compete at lorettas
New ktm is 6300ish OTD for many people
Wheels are 1k for good brand
A decent engine package will set you back 3k

A revalve will set you back 1k. Any extra bs you put on the bike - be it graphics, bling, levers, better rear brake (KTM problem) and boom - your at 12k

Considering the fact that not only are most parents do this or MORE - but that they have 2-3 bikes of this caliber OR MORE - I think the rule is very fair.

The sad fact is - the rule ALREADy exists like I've outlined. The problem is the taboo of actually claiming a factory bike.
If A kid in 8th claims jet reynolds supermini - or seth hammaker's 250f - he is all but assured to never be given a ride in this industry by any factory effort. That's just how it is right now - and not how it SHOULD be.

Go look at aiden tjero's effort last few years. The easily spend 200k a year on racing.

Hmmm, you have tempted me. My youngest has decent speed in 85/supermini classes on relatively stock bikes but we have never tried for Lorettas as I know damn well it's a waste of money. However, pissing off the MX establishment by claiming a bike? That intrigues me. Might be worth making a run for LL just to do such a thing, lol............We have local 85 kids with 6-8 brand new bikes a year that get engines & A=kits before even being ridden. I don't really understand the mentality. Why not ride a stock bike locally for more of a challenge? To each their own I guess.....

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1/29/2019 11:58 AM
Edited Date/Time: 1/29/2019 12:05 PM

Derek Harris wrote:

this is my business day in and day out


The amount of money being spent right now FAR exceeds what I've outlined
The factory teams who hire the amatuer riders - what this topic was started on - are racing damn near their full blown bikes they race at the pros.

The value of that bike - if a privateer effort wanted to even get CLOSE would approach 40-50k minimum

A supermini will cost you 12k to build a bike that can compete at lorettas
New ktm is 6300ish OTD for many people
Wheels are 1k for good brand
A decent engine package will set you back 3k

A revalve will set you back 1k. Any extra bs you put on the bike - be it graphics, bling, levers, better rear brake (KTM problem) and boom - your at 12k

Considering the fact that not only are most parents do this or MORE - but that they have 2-3 bikes of this caliber OR MORE - I think the rule is very fair.

The sad fact is - the rule ALREADy exists like I've outlined. The problem is the taboo of actually claiming a factory bike.
If A kid in 8th claims jet reynolds supermini - or seth hammaker's 250f - he is all but assured to never be given a ride in this industry by any factory effort. That's just how it is right now - and not how it SHOULD be.

Go look at aiden tjero's effort last few years. The easily spend 200k a year on racing.

I'm sorry didn't know the sport of Motocross was "your" business. I agree with you the teams are using spitting images of the factory bikes for these amateurs, which is very wrong. But as far as I know no one is regulating those expenditures at all either for the teams and/or average Joe racer. So the rule is a joke. Half of that crap you don't need. In reality: You don't need extra wheels, those aren't making anything faster. Don't need graphics. All you need is a bike, better handlebars, engine components and suspension. That's it. No one will agree with me but its true. All the cosmetic stuff is BS and overpriced BLING-A-DING-DING.

With that said, your proposal fixes absolutely nothing if the rule in place isn't being enforced. You need to make racing affordable and modifications affordable. Not make it so you HAVE to spend $7000 on a Supermini after you buy it. Your rule should be a MATCH PRICE OF MSRP at most. These bikes are already retarded expensive from 10 years ago. Pretty soon the sport will have less and less weekend warriors except the 2 stroke gang because they're easily rebuilt and cheap as hell. And the tech on those hasn't changed in 20+ years.

Best thing they can do is go back to stock classes. AND stock suspension should be included with that.

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I'm just here to stir sh#t up...

1/29/2019 12:23 PM

The only way to keep it truly amateur is go back to I think very early 80's before Team green was started and then everyone else was forced to follow..............as long as factories are involved in amateur racing there will always be disparity. And saying that the horse is waaaayyyyyy out of the barn because I could never see it going back!!

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1/29/2019 12:38 PM

nrosso391 wrote:

I'm sorry didn't know the sport of Motocross was "your" business. I agree with you the teams are using spitting images of the factory bikes for these amateurs, which is very wrong. But as far as I know no one is regulating those expenditures at all either for the teams and/or average Joe racer. So the rule is a joke. Half of that crap you don't need. In reality: You don't need extra wheels, those aren't making anything faster. Don't need graphics. All you need is a bike, better handlebars, engine components and suspension. That's it. No one will agree with me but its true. All the cosmetic stuff is BS and overpriced BLING-A-DING-DING.

With that said, your proposal fixes absolutely nothing if the rule in place isn't being enforced. You need to make racing affordable and modifications affordable. Not make it so you HAVE to spend $7000 on a Supermini after you buy it. Your rule should be a MATCH PRICE OF MSRP at most. These bikes are already retarded expensive from 10 years ago. Pretty soon the sport will have less and less weekend warriors except the 2 stroke gang because they're easily rebuilt and cheap as hell. And the tech on those hasn't changed in 20+ years.

Best thing they can do is go back to stock classes. AND stock suspension should be included with that.

For a long while - most OEMs dont sell a supermini

So you DO need wheels - to make it a big wheel. That's my whole point.
And in order to regulate - the claim rule does that. If you spend too much on your bike - and it gets taken from you - shame on you.
Claim rules are common in budget classes for car racing.

Match MSRP?!????
You couldn't even race supermini on that rule. HARDLY ANYONE SELLS A STOCK SUPERMINI - it must be built.
So a guy could claim any bike on the track for 6300??? that isn't in the spirit of the rule or life. We don't want shit TAKEN from people - we want a LIMIT on what they do.

you can claim the ENTIRE bike for 2 times msrp - or some arbitrary number we make up. AKA on a supermini - you can claim any bike on the track for 13000 and take it home that day. It's yours.

In the A/pro class 22-25 k and BOOM, its your bike. That means you buy a stock ktm - 9k OTD and put kit suspension. 7500 from WP
And I hear this - and agree - parents who DO have this money believe putting their kid on the best suspension they can get is a SAFETY issue. Hard to argue against that.
Then a good motor, 3500 (good motor at 3500 is practically nothing - ECU, exhaust, and head work) and all of a sudden your at the claim limit.

People - and a LOT of people - are spending more than that right now year in and year out.


The rule ALREADY EXISTS. As I stated and it's far LOWER than I outlined at most AMA races
J. Claiming
1. All sanctioned motocross and youth meets are claiming
meets. The claiming price shall be 30 percent over (50
percent over for Supermini) manufacturer’s suggested
retail price using the Black Book AMA Official Motorcycle
Value Guide, Kelly Blue Book or NADA appraisal guide
and include the complete motorcycle, supermini or
minicycle. Vintage- and ATV-class equipment shall be
excluded from the claiming rule.
2. Any rider (claimant) may enter a claim for a motorcycle,
supermini or minicycle ridden in an event in which the
claimant has competed. A claimant may enter a claim
with the referee any time during the meet but no later
than 30 minutes after the race results of the event in
which the claimant has competed are posted. There will
be no additional time added to this process in the event of
a claim.
3. Cash, certified check or bank draft must accompany a
claim. The owner of the claimed motorcycle must
immediately deliver it intact, along with a clear title or bill
of sale.
4. If more than one claim is received for the same
motorcycle, the meet referee will hold a drawing to
determine the successful claimant.
5. If a rider whose motorcycle is claimed refuses to comply,
he must forfeit his trophy, is disqualified from the meet
and will be suspended for one year.
MOTOCROSS 1.3
34
6. A rider may not enter a claim on his own equipment.
7. Any rider deemed by the AMA to be complicit in
circumventing the claiming rule (i.e. placing a claim with
the intent of returning the motorcycle to the original
owner), will be subject to a 1 year suspension

The supplamental rules of loretta's are 2 times msrp

The claiming rule value is two times the Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) at the National event.


The PROBLEM is the TABOO behind it - not the rule.




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