How can(could) the Japanese manufacturers just hand over the market to KTM?

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5/29/2020 5:16 PM

The 350 thread got me thinking about how popular 350's and 300 2-strokes are in the offroad market and how not one of the red, blue, green and yellow even offer them. KTM, Husky, even Beta continue to grow in popularity while the Japanese sleep.

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5/29/2020 5:29 PM

This is as close to a 350 Kawi you're going to get for now Photo

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If talk is cheap, silence must be expensive because nobody can afford it!

5/29/2020 5:35 PM

If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in their opinion and off-road motorcycling is a small segment without much pull in the boardroom.

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5/29/2020 6:38 PM
Edited Date/Time: 5/29/2020 6:39 PM

...KTM/Husky is run by racers with a passion for what they do.

The Japanese brands are run by accountants and advertising execs.

Japanese engineers are only allowed to design what their bosses tell them to design, and only under a certain budget.

DeCoster still goes in every day to the shop in Murrieta and tries to make his motorcycles better, when he could be retired. He loves what he does.

I doubt if any Japanese brand has anyone with that fire inside...


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5/29/2020 6:45 PM

KTM took it! The Japanese didn’t hand it over

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5/29/2020 6:49 PM

Passion at the Top

As a company, you either have it or you don’t

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I ripped a start from Egypt and I was happy about that.

5/29/2020 6:52 PM

I had been asking myself this same question for several years , but lately I just dont care what they do. These are companies who are going to continue playing their little game of follow the leader while KTM and other euro brands take off. screw 'em. my next new bike will be a KTM 350XC....there are tons of them at the races (off road races)

There are probably more 350XC models at any given off road race in my are than all honda and suzuki models combined

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ride

5/29/2020 6:56 PM

GoldenKTM wrote:

If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in their opinion and off-road motorcycling is a small segment without much pull in the boardroom.

Except you're wrong. The off road segment is huge compared to moto.

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5/29/2020 7:05 PM

DeCoster lost his retirement in 2008 via tanked investments brokered by Greg Albertyn. He NEEDS to work.

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5/29/2020 7:06 PM

JB 19 wrote:

Except you're wrong. The off road segment is huge compared to moto.

I think he meant off road in a broader sense, encompassing everything not street legal.

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5/29/2020 7:08 PM
Edited Date/Time: 5/29/2020 7:09 PM

GoldenKTM wrote:

If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in their opinion and off-road motorcycling is a small segment without much pull in the boardroom.

Absolutely correct. Like it or not ROI in these interesting economic times is everything. If it were a worthwhile investment they would pursue it. That says a lot about the state of the sport in this country and indeed in much of the world. There's more money in making mopeds for Malaysia and India and China than there is for developing motocross bikes for a relatively small market. Sad but true.

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5/29/2020 8:00 PM

Janko630 wrote:

DeCoster lost his retirement in 2008 via tanked investments brokered by Greg Albertyn. He NEEDS to work.

Really? Whats the story behind this?

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5/29/2020 8:31 PM

GoldenKTM wrote:

If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in their opinion and off-road motorcycling is a small segment without much pull in the boardroom.

BMSOBx2 wrote:

Absolutely correct. Like it or not ROI in these interesting economic times is everything. If it were a worthwhile investment they would pursue it. That says a lot about the state of the sport in this country and indeed in much of the world. There's more money in making mopeds for Malaysia and India and China than there is for developing motocross bikes for a relatively small market. Sad but true.

I 100% agree, ROI is key...like it or not.

The Japanese manufacturers do not need to invest money in R&D, tooling lines, manufacturing lines, etc etc for new models when they would struggle to get a decent enough market share to make it worthwhile. They make enough money from other areas of their business.

And IF they did then it would hurt KTM/Husky/Beta/Sherco/Gas Gas sales ....does the non-Japanese rider want the Japanese to produce bikes to compete with them, heck no, that could (I said could!) mean the end of their brand...especially because that is the biggest income for those brands (KTM/Husky do produce some road bikes but no where near the volume of the other brands or biggest sellers).

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Current rides: 2020 CRF450RWE and 2019 TC300
Occasional ride for VMX: 1985 CR500RF
Adventure/Road bike: CRF1000L

5/29/2020 8:39 PM

Local shop is sold out of 2020 Hondas. There are 2019 ktms still sitting on the floor though.

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5/29/2020 9:17 PM

Janko630 wrote:

DeCoster lost his retirement in 2008 via tanked investments brokered by Greg Albertyn. He NEEDS to work.

Yeah, you’re right, Roger de Coster has no passion for motocross, he’s only driven by money. /sarc

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5/29/2020 10:24 PM

GoldenKTM wrote:

If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in their opinion and off-road motorcycling is a small segment without much pull in the boardroom.

JB 19 wrote:

Except you're wrong. The off road segment is huge compared to moto.

Isn't the 250 or 300 2-stroke TPI KTMs most sold bike globally?

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5/29/2020 11:56 PM

Janko630 wrote:

DeCoster lost his retirement in 2008 via tanked investments brokered by Greg Albertyn. He NEEDS to work.

That was the GFC dick, a lot of us are still working due to this.
No need to dirty Greg's name.

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5/30/2020 12:20 AM

Janko630 wrote:

DeCoster lost his retirement in 2008 via tanked investments brokered by Greg Albertyn. He NEEDS to work.

inthebadboycorner wrote:

That was the GFC dick, a lot of us are still working due to this.
No need to dirty Greg's name.

What's the back story? Curious.

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5/30/2020 5:54 AM

Pretty sure we'll Never see a new 2 stroke from Japan. Supercross and Motocross get all of the publicity and what bikes does that sell?

Yes, 4 stroke MX bikes just like Japan wants. As good as these bikes are, Japan figures they are the best bet, no matter what you want to do with it. And of course 'Best' can mean best for the manufacturers in increased cost of ownership (maybe?).

I have had so much fun on CR and YZ250s (2T) in my life, I can't help but be a fan of Honda & Yamaha.

But I never cared for Honda's anti 2 stroke philosophy.

And how hard would it be for Yamaha to put out a YZ300 - a direct competitor for the KTM/Husky 300? Yes, it would take some development, but then they sell it for the next 20 years, with no changes - and it still sells, while development costs were paid for in 1st year, most likely.

With no new SX/MX to watch, I've been watching the Hard Enduro series on YouTube.

Very entertaining. Also completely devoid of 4 strokes/any bikes from Japan. So completely dominated by KTM/Husky. But also fun to see the Shercos, Gas Gas & Betas occasionally in the mix.

So how can I not be a big fan of KTM & Husky too - just for the bikes they offer, if nothing else?



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2016 YZ250X

5/30/2020 6:17 AM

GoldenKTM wrote:

If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in their opinion and off-road motorcycling is a small segment without much pull in the boardroom.

JB 19 wrote:

Except you're wrong. The off road segment is huge compared to moto.

Motofinne wrote:

Isn't the 250 or 300 2-stroke TPI KTMs most sold bike globally?

I thought the 350 was.

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5/30/2020 7:33 AM

I’m starting to think KTM is a cult

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Alright Lunger, Let's Do It

5/30/2020 7:50 AM

JB 19 wrote:

Except you're wrong. The off road segment is huge compared to moto.

I believe that motocross bikes, cross country bikes and trail bikes are all considered “off-road” motorcycles and have the same bucket of money at a higher level.

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5/30/2020 7:52 AM

When you walk into a Yamaha dealership, what do you see? Street bikes, wave runners, side by sides and quads. Then over in the corner you see ttrs and a couple of wrs. Then finally you see the yz. The moto x bikes are tip of the spear for branding. KTM is tiny vs the Japanese so they segmented the market for hardcore enthusiasts and focus on offroad dirtbikes. The Japanes haven't given up anything, they make their $ on a broader consumer market that has bigger wallets and less knowledge about what they are buying.

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5/30/2020 8:05 AM

kage173 wrote:

When you walk into a Yamaha dealership, what do you see? Street bikes, wave runners, side by sides and quads. Then over in the corner you see ttrs and a couple of wrs. Then finally you see the yz. The moto x bikes are tip of the spear for branding. KTM is tiny vs the Japanese so they segmented the market for hardcore enthusiasts and focus on offroad dirtbikes. The Japanes haven't given up anything, they make their $ on a broader consumer market that has bigger wallets and less knowledge about what they are buying.

Yes....this

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5/30/2020 8:12 AM

MZ193 wrote:

What's the back story? Curious.

Albee was on a podcast and talked about it a bit... Albee lost his shirt too.... And while the man lost some money, I doubt it was his entire nut....

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www.bettercallsaul.com
Die Antwoord

5/30/2020 8:20 AM

GoldenKTM wrote:

If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in their opinion and off-road motorcycling is a small segment without much pull in the boardroom.

JB 19 wrote:

Except you're wrong. The off road segment is huge compared to moto.

You are right... Probably double or triple the size of moto. So, off-road is potentially 3% of their sales, instead of only one percent. 👍

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Braaapin' aint easy.

5/30/2020 8:21 AM

GoonRider93 wrote:

This is as close to a 350 Kawi you're going to get for now Photo

Damn that is pretty!

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Cheers, Crush
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5/30/2020 8:25 AM

inthebadboycorner wrote:

That was the GFC dick, a lot of us are still working due to this.
No need to dirty Greg's name.

MZ193 wrote:

What's the back story? Curious.

gt80rider wrote:

Albee was on a podcast and talked about it a bit... Albee lost his shirt too.... And while the man lost some money, I doubt it was his entire nut....

For anyone interested, press play:

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"Sorry Goose, but it's time to buzz the tower."

5/30/2020 8:40 AM

I'd bet pretty good money that people in the Japanese manufacturers have all looked at the 350F concept from a market evaluation perspective. My money is on the ROI just isn't there for them as they see it as a very niche' product. Its a very small % of bikes in a small market segment. I do like the idea and the power of the 350 as probably the best platform for most non-pro riders, especially vet riders like myself. I often tell myself that if Yamaha made a YZ350F, I'd go buy one for sure. Then I remind myself how easy it is for me to just de-tune and tone down my '18 YZ450F by using different gearing and the mobile app for mapping. So why produce a 350 machine, when its really easy to just set up my YZ450F to be like a 350F? But if I want to have the extra power for some desert riding, all I have to do is login on my app and in about 60 seconds (or less), I'm back on a YZ450F. Hell, it takes me longer to put gas in the bike than it does to change a map setting. It just doesn't make sense from a business perspective. So the Japanese manufacturers just let KTM/Husky be what they are and have that market.

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5/30/2020 8:42 AM
Edited Date/Time: 5/31/2020 4:09 AM

GoldenKTM wrote:

If the Japanese brands wanted to make a great 300 2T or 350 4T they would. the cost to benefit ratio isn't there right now in their opinion and off-road motorcycling is a small segment without much pull in the boardroom.

BMSOBx2 wrote:

Absolutely correct. Like it or not ROI in these interesting economic times is everything. If it were a worthwhile investment they would pursue it. That says a lot about the state of the sport in this country and indeed in much of the world. There's more money in making mopeds for Malaysia and India and China than there is for developing motocross bikes for a relatively small market. Sad but true.

Motocross bikes are buggy whips

">Larry the liguidator's buggy whip analogy
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