How are KTMs so light?

RCMXracing
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1/18/2018 9:45am
Nice troll OP! ? One of these posts pops up every month. Enjoy your popcorn.
Damnit, can’t resist my 2 cents. I’m not brand loyal, all dirtbikes are cool and have good/bad things. Comparing a KTM to a Honda (have both) the Honda just seems overbuilt. The KTM engines are like Swiss watches and no reason to even touch a top end on a 450 until 160+ hours. Clutches last forever. I’ve OJ’d more than a couple times, no issues.
ONE area they need to improve is the wiring security, rub points, seems kind of thrown on there, they need to clean that up.
drt410
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1/18/2018 9:57am
How is it a troll. Things like the side by side top ends that guy posted are good info.
JBecker 72
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1/18/2018 10:02am
I think it’s aweaome how light they have managed to make an electric start 450.

Honestly, if I had more disposable income, I would probably have one instead of my KX450F. But when you can get a new Kawi for $3k less than a KTM, and you’re a broke ass, you look at things different.
DAG
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1/18/2018 10:06am
I don't think it really matters for us mere mortals.
.pick a color or dealer you like.







The Shop

mx317
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1/18/2018 10:26am
I'm not married to any brand and currently ride a KTM. Having said that I rode a Yamaha and liked it a lot, so I could ride it and be happy. I rode a new Honda and it just didn't feel as good to me for some reason. Maybe with some time, but I jumped on that Yamaha and it didn't take long to feel comfortable. Any bike can break and I don't see one brand breaking any more than others around here.
1/18/2018 10:35am
captmoto wrote:
Why, if it works? You just cant be as ham fisted as with a Japanese bike. Side panel attachment save a few ounces Narrow frame, to...
Why, if it works? You just cant be as ham fisted as with a Japanese bike.

Side panel attachment save a few ounces

Narrow frame, to the point that you need to remove the shock to remove the pipe. There has got to be a few ounces there too.
How did they get so light with the e-start? They hydro clutch is heavier too. I think the Japanese are just set in tradition. I'm surprised they haven't responded yet.

It's funny, people want trick, light, factory like bikes and when they are available, people piss and moan about it.

As far as frames breaking, where do they break?
Like I've said numerous times, to each their own. It's cheap and I don't like it. If you do, good for you.
mattyhamz2
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1/18/2018 10:35am
mx317 wrote:
I'm not married to any brand and currently ride a KTM. Having said that I rode a Yamaha and liked it a lot, so I could...
I'm not married to any brand and currently ride a KTM. Having said that I rode a Yamaha and liked it a lot, so I could ride it and be happy. I rode a new Honda and it just didn't feel as good to me for some reason. Maybe with some time, but I jumped on that Yamaha and it didn't take long to feel comfortable. Any bike can break and I don't see one brand breaking any more than others around here.
agreed!
dirtmike86
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1/18/2018 10:39am
c0ncEpT wrote:
The plastics are held on with legit wood screws with 6mm heads on them.
Wood screws are stronger. I had to replace the clutch and brake master cylinder reservoir cap screws from the horrible tin foil crap to steel phillips heads from another brand. Lots of plastic internals also.
Acidreamer
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1/18/2018 10:45am
c0ncEpT wrote:
The plastics are held on with legit wood screws with 6mm heads on them.
dirtmike86 wrote:
Wood screws are stronger. I had to replace the clutch and brake master cylinder reservoir cap screws from the horrible tin foil crap to steel phillips...
Wood screws are stronger. I had to replace the clutch and brake master cylinder reservoir cap screws from the horrible tin foil crap to steel phillips heads from another brand. Lots of plastic internals also.
Regarding the wood screw thing.. pretty much all the plastic in your car is held on with them.

Personally i dont see how a wood screw is stronger than a normal bolt of the same diameter. The ID is smaller on a wood screw. To each their own i guess.
mx317
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1/18/2018 10:55am
I'm on old turd that still rides/races every chance I get and I laugh when they talk about bikes breaking. I lived through the Maico, CZ, Elsinore age where you could see any number being pushed off (or dragged) back to the truck every moto. I was 15 and could rebuild my 73 Elsinore 250 transmission myself when it would bend the third gear shift fork. My 79 Maico didn't make two motos before I broke both wheels and had to relace in a "cross 4" pattern. New bikes usually give many hours of trouble free service if they are maintained properly. So quit your bitching and get out and ride! Hillbilly had the best answer to the original question when he said KTM was the most concerned with building a better race bike and that is why they are light.
dirtmike86
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1/18/2018 10:58am Edited Date/Time 1/18/2018 11:00am
c0ncEpT wrote:
The plastics are held on with legit wood screws with 6mm heads on them.
dirtmike86 wrote:
Wood screws are stronger. I had to replace the clutch and brake master cylinder reservoir cap screws from the horrible tin foil crap to steel phillips...
Wood screws are stronger. I had to replace the clutch and brake master cylinder reservoir cap screws from the horrible tin foil crap to steel phillips heads from another brand. Lots of plastic internals also.
Acidreamer wrote:
Regarding the wood screw thing.. pretty much all the plastic in your car is held on with them. Personally i dont see how a wood screw...
Regarding the wood screw thing.. pretty much all the plastic in your car is held on with them.

Personally i dont see how a wood screw is stronger than a normal bolt of the same diameter. The ID is smaller on a wood screw. To each their own i guess.
Ive never had an issue with them. Wasnt complaning, its actually nice and makes things quicker to remove. Its not the diameter of the screw its the density. The cap screws were an issue because they stripped out and i used the torq socket they provided. Also there are plastic gears inside the right side engine cover that isnt uncommon and again have no issues with. Almost 100hrs on my bike and it gets beat to hell. Ive had all the jap brands and this is my first ktm. They all had pro and cons. Iam happy with my ktm but that also doesnt mean id never buy another brand.
MX915
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1/18/2018 11:33am
dirtmike86 wrote:
Ive never had an issue with them. Wasnt complaning, its actually nice and makes things quicker to remove. Its not the diameter of the screw its...
Ive never had an issue with them. Wasnt complaning, its actually nice and makes things quicker to remove. Its not the diameter of the screw its the density. The cap screws were an issue because they stripped out and i used the torq socket they provided. Also there are plastic gears inside the right side engine cover that isnt uncommon and again have no issues with. Almost 100hrs on my bike and it gets beat to hell. Ive had all the jap brands and this is my first ktm. They all had pro and cons. Iam happy with my ktm but that also doesnt mean id never buy another brand.
Plastic oil pump gears are not unusual. Honda uses a plastic gear to drive the CRF oil pump as well. I don't quite know the logic behind it, but like you said it is common among both Euro and Japanese brands. Plus, oddly enough, they don't seem to be a regular point of failure.
kiwifan
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1/18/2018 1:21pm
Gee anyone would think that the Japenese bikes are too slow because they weight few pounds heavier, I am willing to bet that 95% of people on this site wouldn't know the difference in weight when riding them, and only a few notice the weight lifting them on and off the stand....that is not bagging on KTM or Husky (I own a Husky).

The Japanese bikes are actually damn good, the KTM and Husky bikes SHOULD be good too, they have more expensive materials, aftermarket parts, etc.

Imagine IF the Japanese bikes all went back to steel frames, with great air forks and super small light and reliable engines....dont want that? then dont complain.

Vitards are fickle, they hated air forks, some Japanese manufacturers went back to spring so they hated on them adding the weight because of the spring forks ....no win situation right there.

kiwifan
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1/18/2018 1:24pm
RCMXracing wrote:
Nice troll OP! ? One of these posts pops up every month. Enjoy your popcorn. Damnit, can’t resist my 2 cents. I’m not brand loyal, all...
Nice troll OP! ? One of these posts pops up every month. Enjoy your popcorn.
Damnit, can’t resist my 2 cents. I’m not brand loyal, all dirtbikes are cool and have good/bad things. Comparing a KTM to a Honda (have both) the Honda just seems overbuilt. The KTM engines are like Swiss watches and no reason to even touch a top end on a 450 until 160+ hours. Clutches last forever. I’ve OJ’d more than a couple times, no issues.
ONE area they need to improve is the wiring security, rub points, seems kind of thrown on there, they need to clean that up.
160+ hours?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Donovan759
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1/18/2018 1:34pm
RCMXracing wrote:
Nice troll OP! ? One of these posts pops up every month. Enjoy your popcorn. Damnit, can’t resist my 2 cents. I’m not brand loyal, all...
Nice troll OP! ? One of these posts pops up every month. Enjoy your popcorn.
Damnit, can’t resist my 2 cents. I’m not brand loyal, all dirtbikes are cool and have good/bad things. Comparing a KTM to a Honda (have both) the Honda just seems overbuilt. The KTM engines are like Swiss watches and no reason to even touch a top end on a 450 until 160+ hours. Clutches last forever. I’ve OJ’d more than a couple times, no issues.
ONE area they need to improve is the wiring security, rub points, seems kind of thrown on there, they need to clean that up.
kiwifan wrote:
160+ hours?!?!?!?!?!?!?


RCMXracing
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1/18/2018 1:43pm
RCMXracing wrote:
Nice troll OP! ? One of these posts pops up every month. Enjoy your popcorn. Damnit, can’t resist my 2 cents. I’m not brand loyal, all...
Nice troll OP! ? One of these posts pops up every month. Enjoy your popcorn.
Damnit, can’t resist my 2 cents. I’m not brand loyal, all dirtbikes are cool and have good/bad things. Comparing a KTM to a Honda (have both) the Honda just seems overbuilt. The KTM engines are like Swiss watches and no reason to even touch a top end on a 450 until 160+ hours. Clutches last forever. I’ve OJ’d more than a couple times, no issues.
ONE area they need to improve is the wiring security, rub points, seems kind of thrown on there, they need to clean that up.
kiwifan wrote:
160+ hours?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Fact. Not just internet rumor. Reliable shop owners and mechanics telling me they still look good at those hours too. Piston, valves, valve springs, all good. This is on a 450. 250 80 hrs a good number. This assumes not ridden by Johnny “Revmeister”. Can find many owners that take them to 200, don’t do shit. BTW I have 80+ and haven’t touched the clutch (‘16 450). Just yesterday bought all the stuff for the top end and had this rebuild discussion at the shop. I know it sounds crazy.
I suspect Japanese bikes are also being rebuilt before necessary.
dirtmike86
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1/18/2018 1:49pm
RCMXracing wrote:
Nice troll OP! ? One of these posts pops up every month. Enjoy your popcorn. Damnit, can’t resist my 2 cents. I’m not brand loyal, all...
Nice troll OP! ? One of these posts pops up every month. Enjoy your popcorn.
Damnit, can’t resist my 2 cents. I’m not brand loyal, all dirtbikes are cool and have good/bad things. Comparing a KTM to a Honda (have both) the Honda just seems overbuilt. The KTM engines are like Swiss watches and no reason to even touch a top end on a 450 until 160+ hours. Clutches last forever. I’ve OJ’d more than a couple times, no issues.
ONE area they need to improve is the wiring security, rub points, seems kind of thrown on there, they need to clean that up.
kiwifan wrote:
160+ hours?!?!?!?!?!?!?
RCMXracing wrote:
Fact. Not just internet rumor. Reliable shop owners and mechanics telling me they still look good at those hours too. Piston, valves, valve springs, all good...
Fact. Not just internet rumor. Reliable shop owners and mechanics telling me they still look good at those hours too. Piston, valves, valve springs, all good. This is on a 450. 250 80 hrs a good number. This assumes not ridden by Johnny “Revmeister”. Can find many owners that take them to 200, don’t do shit. BTW I have 80+ and haven’t touched the clutch (‘16 450). Just yesterday bought all the stuff for the top end and had this rebuild discussion at the shop. I know it sounds crazy.
I suspect Japanese bikes are also being rebuilt before necessary.
All depends on the rider skill level and maintnence, my 350 had 80hrs when i rebuilt it. Still looked brand new (because iam slow as shit). Would i let any bike go 160hrs before rebuild f#@k no. Is it possible? Absolutely.
philG
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1/18/2018 1:56pm
The cases are paper thin compared to how they used to be... you could get the old KTM motors out to 612cc by boring and stroking them, for Supermoto, to do it you used to have to machine the cases to clear the rod as at stuck out of the crank profile, and machine a bit away to clear the sides of the rod.. The first Husky 450 from KTM, it wasnt possible, and the 2017 was different again , none of the parts from the 16 to 17 on the SM motors went over.

A mate went on the course for the Husky motor , and he said its unreal , even compared to a 15.. so much stuff just pared away.

Also the top Husky SM team in Germany, who we just picked a couple of bikes up from , recommend not running quickshifters , because the gears arent as strong as they were .

It all adds up.
peelout
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1/18/2018 1:57pm
dirtmike86 wrote:
All depends on the rider skill level and maintnence, my 350 had 80hrs when i rebuilt it. Still looked brand new (because iam slow as shit)...
All depends on the rider skill level and maintnence, my 350 had 80hrs when i rebuilt it. Still looked brand new (because iam slow as shit). Would i let any bike go 160hrs before rebuild f#@k no. Is it possible? Absolutely.
i put 270 hours on my KTM 300 piston before replacing the piston and rings. love that bike
dirtmike86
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1/18/2018 2:01pm Edited Date/Time 1/18/2018 2:02pm
dirtmike86 wrote:
All depends on the rider skill level and maintnence, my 350 had 80hrs when i rebuilt it. Still looked brand new (because iam slow as shit)...
All depends on the rider skill level and maintnence, my 350 had 80hrs when i rebuilt it. Still looked brand new (because iam slow as shit). Would i let any bike go 160hrs before rebuild f#@k no. Is it possible? Absolutely.
peelout wrote:
i put 270 hours on my KTM 300 piston before replacing the piston and rings. love that bike
Haha thats rad. On a damn two stroke thats impressive. If i only rode trails or woods i wouldnt be to concerned but last thing i need is my shit locking up off the face of a jump.
mattyhamz2
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1/18/2018 2:09pm
RCMXracing wrote:
Nice troll OP! ? One of these posts pops up every month. Enjoy your popcorn. Damnit, can’t resist my 2 cents. I’m not brand loyal, all...
Nice troll OP! ? One of these posts pops up every month. Enjoy your popcorn.
Damnit, can’t resist my 2 cents. I’m not brand loyal, all dirtbikes are cool and have good/bad things. Comparing a KTM to a Honda (have both) the Honda just seems overbuilt. The KTM engines are like Swiss watches and no reason to even touch a top end on a 450 until 160+ hours. Clutches last forever. I’ve OJ’d more than a couple times, no issues.
ONE area they need to improve is the wiring security, rub points, seems kind of thrown on there, they need to clean that up.
kiwifan wrote:
160+ hours?!?!?!?!?!?!?
What is acidreamer going to say about that?!?!?!?! Blink
mxtech1
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1/18/2018 2:21pm
captmoto wrote:
Why, if it works? You just cant be as ham fisted as with a Japanese bike. Side panel attachment save a few ounces Narrow frame, to...
Why, if it works? You just cant be as ham fisted as with a Japanese bike.

Side panel attachment save a few ounces

Narrow frame, to the point that you need to remove the shock to remove the pipe. There has got to be a few ounces there too.
How did they get so light with the e-start? They hydro clutch is heavier too. I think the Japanese are just set in tradition. I'm surprised they haven't responded yet.

It's funny, people want trick, light, factory like bikes and when they are available, people piss and moan about it.

As far as frames breaking, where do they break?
Like I've said numerous times, to each their own. It's cheap and I don't like it. If you do, good for you.
We use some fasteners like that at work on certain applications.

Believe it or not, they are actually more expensive to buy and use in manufacturing than the traditional steel bolt/nut.

They are more expensive per unit because they are designed for low-volume niche applications like this one whereas the traditional steel bolt/nut fastener combo is bought in volume at drastically cheaper prices.

On top of the purchase price, it also costs us more $$ in labor to pay the operators to run them down by hand because it is mostly a "feel" application when they are tight. With the steel bolt/nut, we only have to pay an operator a few seconds of labor because they can use a power tool (like a small impact) to just run it down tight. The fasteners we are talking about here require us to pay the operator for 10-15 seconds of labor because they must start and finish the rundown by hand.

KTM made the decision that the extra cost and assembly time was worth it to save a couple tenths of an ounce per bolt. If you can't use a simple scenario like this to understand their logic and passion for performance, you need a major attitude adjustment.


suzook241
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1/18/2018 2:42pm
Not bashing ktm by any means, just adding in my personal experience with them... Well repairing them.

Back to back with any other Japanese brand bike it seems like the ktm/husky model machines have a few more issues than say the average Japanese brand bike. Not saying one brand is better than the next. Each brand has items they do better than the next. I can list off certain aspects about every brand that I like better than the next, and ktm has some great things they do and others not so much. One thing sticks out for sure is durability. I know as stated above there are gentleman reaching stupid amount of hours on "x" brand of bike etc. But are you bouncing it off the Rev limiter? Are you a Justin Barcia or a Kevin Windham? Are you weekend warrior cruising trails or a avid racer etc. Each wears a bike differently... How you maintain a machine (obviously) affects performance/reliability/and longevity...

I'm not debating how one person maintains their machine over the next....

But things I have seen which baffles me. ( All of which were low hour machines, under 20 and by trail riders/weekend warriors and amature racers) maintenance on these machines were taken care of on a normal routine basis

Egged cylinders
Broken frames
Broken foot peg mounts
Transmissions transmissions transmissions!
Sub frames
Triple clamps....
Cracked cases

Most of these items were warrantied by ktm and replaced for nothing so kudos to them that's awesome, I know before anyone says it... Yes trying to get a Japanese brand to warranty anything is like pulling teeth... Good luck.

kiwifan
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1/18/2018 3:06pm
RCMXracing wrote:
Nice troll OP! ? One of these posts pops up every month. Enjoy your popcorn. Damnit, can’t resist my 2 cents. I’m not brand loyal, all...
Nice troll OP! ? One of these posts pops up every month. Enjoy your popcorn.
Damnit, can’t resist my 2 cents. I’m not brand loyal, all dirtbikes are cool and have good/bad things. Comparing a KTM to a Honda (have both) the Honda just seems overbuilt. The KTM engines are like Swiss watches and no reason to even touch a top end on a 450 until 160+ hours. Clutches last forever. I’ve OJ’d more than a couple times, no issues.
ONE area they need to improve is the wiring security, rub points, seems kind of thrown on there, they need to clean that up.
kiwifan wrote:
160+ hours?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Donovan759 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/01/18/238865/s1200_kid.jpg[/img]


As stated in other comments, it does depend on how the bike is ridden, those who race often would never go that high in hours, so perhaps the 160+ guys only trial rides? If so, then he is likely to go same number of hours on any brand.
RCMXracing
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1/18/2018 3:25pm
suzook241 wrote:
Not bashing ktm by any means, just adding in my personal experience with them... Well repairing them. Back to back with any other Japanese brand bike...
Not bashing ktm by any means, just adding in my personal experience with them... Well repairing them.

Back to back with any other Japanese brand bike it seems like the ktm/husky model machines have a few more issues than say the average Japanese brand bike. Not saying one brand is better than the next. Each brand has items they do better than the next. I can list off certain aspects about every brand that I like better than the next, and ktm has some great things they do and others not so much. One thing sticks out for sure is durability. I know as stated above there are gentleman reaching stupid amount of hours on "x" brand of bike etc. But are you bouncing it off the Rev limiter? Are you a Justin Barcia or a Kevin Windham? Are you weekend warrior cruising trails or a avid racer etc. Each wears a bike differently... How you maintain a machine (obviously) affects performance/reliability/and longevity...

I'm not debating how one person maintains their machine over the next....

But things I have seen which baffles me. ( All of which were low hour machines, under 20 and by trail riders/weekend warriors and amature racers) maintenance on these machines were taken care of on a normal routine basis

Egged cylinders
Broken frames
Broken foot peg mounts
Transmissions transmissions transmissions!
Sub frames
Triple clamps....
Cracked cases

Most of these items were warrantied by ktm and replaced for nothing so kudos to them that's awesome, I know before anyone says it... Yes trying to get a Japanese brand to warranty anything is like pulling teeth... Good luck.

What year bikes? 2 or 4 strokes? What cc’s? I know the newer KTM 4T’s have a Carrillo piston, and of course Pankle rod (F1 Tech), and plain bearings in bottom.
suzook241
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1/18/2018 3:26pm
suzook241 wrote:
Not bashing ktm by any means, just adding in my personal experience with them... Well repairing them. Back to back with any other Japanese brand bike...
Not bashing ktm by any means, just adding in my personal experience with them... Well repairing them.

Back to back with any other Japanese brand bike it seems like the ktm/husky model machines have a few more issues than say the average Japanese brand bike. Not saying one brand is better than the next. Each brand has items they do better than the next. I can list off certain aspects about every brand that I like better than the next, and ktm has some great things they do and others not so much. One thing sticks out for sure is durability. I know as stated above there are gentleman reaching stupid amount of hours on "x" brand of bike etc. But are you bouncing it off the Rev limiter? Are you a Justin Barcia or a Kevin Windham? Are you weekend warrior cruising trails or a avid racer etc. Each wears a bike differently... How you maintain a machine (obviously) affects performance/reliability/and longevity...

I'm not debating how one person maintains their machine over the next....

But things I have seen which baffles me. ( All of which were low hour machines, under 20 and by trail riders/weekend warriors and amature racers) maintenance on these machines were taken care of on a normal routine basis

Egged cylinders
Broken frames
Broken foot peg mounts
Transmissions transmissions transmissions!
Sub frames
Triple clamps....
Cracked cases

Most of these items were warrantied by ktm and replaced for nothing so kudos to them that's awesome, I know before anyone says it... Yes trying to get a Japanese brand to warranty anything is like pulling teeth... Good luck.

RCMXracing wrote:
What year bikes? 2 or 4 strokes? What cc’s? I know the newer KTM 4T’s have a Carrillo piston, and of course Pankle rod (F1 Tech)...
What year bikes? 2 or 4 strokes? What cc’s? I know the newer KTM 4T’s have a Carrillo piston, and of course Pankle rod (F1 Tech), and plain bearings in bottom.
125/150 two strokes
250sxf
350sx/ xc?
450sxf
RCMXracing
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1/18/2018 3:35pm
kiwifan wrote:
160+ hours?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Donovan759 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/01/18/238865/s1200_kid.jpg[/img]


kiwifan wrote:
As stated in other comments, it does depend on how the bike is ridden, those who race often would never go that high in hours, so...
As stated in other comments, it does depend on how the bike is ridden, those who race often would never go that high in hours, so perhaps the 160+ guys only trial rides? If so, then he is likely to go same number of hours on any brand.
You and @dirtmike86 make valid points. I ride/race MX in Vet A/B, not that it matters because I don’t rev the shit out of my 450. I do oil/filter and air filter regularly. I’ll rebuild mine between 100-120 hrs. A lot of what ruins an engine is a busted valve or cracked piston. Apparently this isn’t common with newer KTM’s and the shop I go to services local MX pro’s to casual trail guys.
RCMXracing
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1/18/2018 3:43pm
suzook241 wrote:
125/150 two strokes
250sxf
350sx/ xc?
450sxf
Are these the newer gen bikes? 2016 for 4T’s, 2017 for 2T’s or older models? I had heard about some tranny issues on new gen 250F’s that were warranteed. Not trying to win an argument, genuinely curious about failures.
BobPA
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1/18/2018 3:46pm
[img]https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/19399436/not-this-shit-again.jpg[/img]
I’ll second this.

The “wood screws” are actually awesome in their intended applications. They NEVER back out. Not once, not ever have I lost a screw...Nor have I ever had one strip or fail. Squirreldick is just arguing that the sky is green.

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