How about that brand new KTM

Cygnus wrote:

Short was almost taken out of the sport forever by the pumpkin. If he were still on it I would bet he would be doing worse...

Short was almost taken out of the sport forever by the pumpkin. If he were still on it I would bet he would be doing worse this year.

jasonward73 wrote:

Let's set aside what you all think about how he "looks" on the bike and take a different approach. Let's take a look at the results...

Let's set aside what you all think about how he "looks" on the bike and take a different approach. Let's take a look at the results from 2011 and 2012. Keep in mind 2012 is supposed to be the "MOST STACKED" class ever.

I know, it's a very abstract way to measure success but I think most people would agree checking the scoreboard is always the best measure.

Through 6 rounds Dungey has gone...

2011 - 2, 5, 3, 3, 20, 2 Average finish = 5.8333 (with years and years of development)

2012 - 3, 1, 2, 4, 4, 3 Average Finish = 2.83333 (With NO SX wins ever)

Dungey is averaging a 3 position gain on the KTM vs the Suzuki.

Just for fun here are Andrew Shorts finishes

2011 - 10, 7, 14, 9, 6, 5 Average finish = 8.5 (on the POS underpowered KTM 350)

2012 - 7, 6, 14, 5, 14, 20 Average finish = 11 (on the holy grail of all Factory bikes)

Even if you take out Short's finish last week because he crashed the average finish through the first 5 rounds is the same from 2011 and 2012. Short is no better this year than last, he's actually worse. Shorty finished an average 2.5 positions better on the KTM vs the Honda. Hmmmmm......

Do the #s lie?

Jason

newmann wrote:

I remember Albertyn being a professional lawn dart on Suzuki's for years and years, especially in SX rhythm sections. Suzuki did wonders for Windham with their...

I remember Albertyn being a professional lawn dart on Suzuki's for years and years, especially in SX rhythm sections. Suzuki did wonders for Windham with their famous huckabucka suspension. Wasn't till some little redheaded dude came along that anybody was willing to take them serious......oh, wait....the US Open was the end of RC. The Suzuki curse struck. The clutch couldn't hang, it was junk, biggest mistake he ever made.....lol

jasonward73 wrote:

Let's set aside what you all think about how he "looks" on the bike and take a different approach. Let's take a look at the results...

Let's set aside what you all think about how he "looks" on the bike and take a different approach. Let's take a look at the results from 2011 and 2012. Keep in mind 2012 is supposed to be the "MOST STACKED" class ever.

I know, it's a very abstract way to measure success but I think most people would agree checking the scoreboard is always the best measure.

Through 6 rounds Dungey has gone...

2011 - 2, 5, 3, 3, 20, 2 Average finish = 5.8333 (with years and years of development)

2012 - 3, 1, 2, 4, 4, 3 Average Finish = 2.83333 (With NO SX wins ever)

Dungey is averaging a 3 position gain on the KTM vs the Suzuki.

Just for fun here are Andrew Shorts finishes

2011 - 10, 7, 14, 9, 6, 5 Average finish = 8.5 (on the POS underpowered KTM 350)

2012 - 7, 6, 14, 5, 14, 20 Average finish = 11 (on the holy grail of all Factory bikes)

Even if you take out Short's finish last week because he crashed the average finish through the first 5 rounds is the same from 2011 and 2012. Short is no better this year than last, he's actually worse. Shorty finished an average 2.5 positions better on the KTM vs the Honda. Hmmmmm......

Do the #s lie?

Jason

PRM31 wrote:

Things that make you go hmmmmm.. Tough to argue with facts (and that avatar doesn't hurt matters) I am quite pleasantly surprised with Dungey's performance this...

Things that make you go hmmmmm.. Tough to argue with facts (and that avatar doesn't hurt matters)

I am quite pleasantly surprised with Dungey's performance this year. For a new team, on a new bike (really, really, new) and the level of competition he cannot be disappointed. He'll get stronger as the year goes along. I see his weakness right now as being a bit cautious on the first lap or two and it's getting him out of position to even play with the other big boys. Regardless, I'm not sure he has the speed to stay with RV on any bike. Having one that's still evolving doesn't help. But he is really close each week.

bultokid wrote:

All I know is RD blitzed pass him after the race to go give his podium speech.

Kartwheel84c wrote:

Dungey's new KTM looked a lot better than JS7's "new" Yamaha.

Kartwheel84c wrote:

Dungey's new KTM looked a lot better than JS7's "new" Yamaha.

JOHN CHOATE wrote:

Did it look better when Stewart blew past him in the whoops on the second lap??

Kartwheel84c wrote:

Dungey's new KTM looked a lot better than JS7's "new" Yamaha.

JOHN CHOATE wrote:

Did it look better when Stewart blew past him in the whoops on the second lap??

Karl Landrus wrote:

Here is my two cents! It was clear on the whoop section the KTM has its difficulties to say the least and it is not a...

Here is my two cents! It was clear on the whoop section the KTM has its difficulties to say the least and it is not a Dungey problem. Can anyone say "Steel Frame" KTM is a fine machine but they always try to outsmart everyone by half. They finally conceded and put a link suspension back on and the results have been awesome. Next step, Aluminum Frame, equals more rigidity, equals rider confidence, equals faster Whoops. Until they do that they had better do a better job of tying that motor to the frame with a few more mounting brackets to make that "steel flexy flyer" a little more rigid. To a guy like You or Me we would never notice the flex in the frame, but at that level of riding everything counts. If you want this example in the extreme you need not look any further than Top Fuel Dragsters that still use the 4130 frames as a suspension component.

The sad thing is the AMA production rule would not allow KTM to hand build an aluminum frame to test, then race, as in the old "Works Bikes"days, " Because it is not in production". This is a perfect example and the reason, I for one am not in favor of that rule. They claim it is a good rule for the privateer and I say I do not think one privateer has been made any better because of that rule. What it has hurt is a company like BBR who could so make an alloy prototype frame and give them some extra business research and developing. KL .

Bob454 wrote:

I can see where your theories are coming from, but do you have any type of data to support your claims that an aluminum frame would...

I can see where your theories are coming from, but do you have any type of data to support your claims that an aluminum frame would cure the "problem"? It sounds to me you are basing all of your theory on a general assumptions of metal qualities without any actual knowledge of the flex of the frame....

newmann wrote:

Karl knows a little bit about aluminum. But having said that, please Karl, do not give KTM any ideas for an alloy frame. As much as...

Karl knows a little bit about aluminum.

But having said that, please Karl, do not give KTM any ideas for an alloy frame. As much as I like giving you money for beefy flex free swingarms for my old vintage stuff I (as a spode level rider) love the feel of a steel frame. Hate the overly rigid feel of aluminum.

Kartwheel84c wrote:

Dungey's new KTM looked a lot better than JS7's "new" Yamaha.

JOHN CHOATE wrote:

Did it look better when Stewart blew past him in the whoops on the second lap??

wreckitrandy wrote:

Maybe not but, it looked pretty good when Dungey struggled by TWICE while he lay upon the cold, cold ground.

newmann wrote:

Brand new team, brand new rider, brand new bike.....and a podium. How'd that third year Yamaturd look for the Fastest Man On The Planet? LMAO.

IceMan446 wrote:

Newmann....Hate must be a strange feeling. Funny because, I could have sworn, James is on a new team, riding a WAY different bike then he did...

Newmann....Hate must be a strange feeling.

Funny because, I could have sworn, James is on a new team, riding a WAY different bike then he did last year and is having to learn as he goes.

Just like the Dunge.

And just a question, have you even rode the new Yamaha?

newmann wrote:

Hate? Because the OEM's are churning out 250 pound motocross bikes in a sport that used to be defined by "light weight"? Because Yamaha is pulling...

Hate?

Because the OEM's are churning out 250 pound motocross bikes in a sport that used to be defined by "light weight"?

Because Yamaha is pulling support from motocross and not providing the necessary R&D for their reverse engined marvel?

Because James has three years of testing and racing on the reverse engined bike with a couple teams and still can't come to grips with it?


Some of you guys crack me up.

Kartwheel84c wrote:

Dungey's new KTM looked a lot better than JS7's "new" Yamaha.

JOHN CHOATE wrote:

Did it look better when Stewart blew past him in the whoops on the second lap??

tyler durden wrote:

DV12: "He's in the same boat as Dungey but Ryan knows his bike isn't there yet and knows if he rides at 100% to win in...

DV12: "He's in the same boat as Dungey but Ryan knows his bike isn't there yet and knows if he rides at 100% to win in the whoops tonight, he most likely will crash. So, he rides on the safe side, lose a little time but score points while waiting on better days. This is something that James doesn't really know how to do."

spot on.

IceMan446 wrote:

Not sure the exact weight on the Yamaha but I am pretty sure James bike doesnt weigh what yours or mine would. And I say hate...

Not sure the exact weight on the Yamaha but I am pretty sure James bike doesnt weigh what yours or mine would.

And I say hate because you hate so much on the Yamaha. Its comical at times.

Do you race or ride one? If not, how do you have such a biased view?

And three years? JGRs bike is completely different then any of the reverse engines James has ridden. So its pretty much a brand new bike to him. Yeah, its a Yamaha motocross bike but WAY different then last years model.

And KTM made a bike just for Dungey. Why hasnt Dungey rode as well as he did on the Zook? Maybe, he has to take some time to get it dialed in and working for him exactly how he wants it to, kinda like James.

IceMan446 wrote:

Not sure the exact weight on the Yamaha but I am pretty sure James bike doesnt weigh what yours or mine would. And I say hate...

Not sure the exact weight on the Yamaha but I am pretty sure James bike doesnt weigh what yours or mine would.

And I say hate because you hate so much on the Yamaha. Its comical at times.

Do you race or ride one? If not, how do you have such a biased view?

And three years? JGRs bike is completely different then any of the reverse engines James has ridden. So its pretty much a brand new bike to him. Yeah, its a Yamaha motocross bike but WAY different then last years model.

And KTM made a bike just for Dungey. Why hasnt Dungey rode as well as he did on the Zook? Maybe, he has to take some time to get it dialed in and working for him exactly how he wants it to, kinda like James.

newmann wrote:

If you were to guess, just what do you think Stewarts bike weighs when it rolls to the line? Take your best shot. All that billet...

If you were to guess, just what do you think Stewarts bike weighs when it rolls to the line? Take your best shot. All that billet aluminum, electronics, guards, heavy duty tubes, etc. etc. Stock bikes that are bangigng 250 on the scales don't have all that extra stuff.

Hate so much on Yamaha? or just the twelve year old engine in the YZ250F(hey, at least it still runs without a bunch of added weight from all the EFI crap) or the 250 lb. tub o lard 450?

I've had my fill of the modern thumper, don't need any more. And I have zero desire whatsoever for a 1/8 ton 450.

JGR's bike is completely different, or just more refined. You think they would make something completely different without any input from James and his last couple years knowledge and testing of the bikes?

And about Dungey. Has the boy EVER been overly aggressive out there on the track. Same shit every year, mild mannered and polite. "Letting the race come to me". He needs to be more aggro. There is no doubt in my mind that KTM can deliver whatever amount of power he needs out of a 450 and the internals of his suspension could be works parts out of his old Suzuki for all we know. Does anyone here spouting off about the KTM know any of the frame geometry of his bike? Doubt it.

IceMan446 wrote:

Not sure the exact weight on the Yamaha but I am pretty sure James bike doesnt weigh what yours or mine would. And I say hate...

Not sure the exact weight on the Yamaha but I am pretty sure James bike doesnt weigh what yours or mine would.

And I say hate because you hate so much on the Yamaha. Its comical at times.

Do you race or ride one? If not, how do you have such a biased view?

And three years? JGRs bike is completely different then any of the reverse engines James has ridden. So its pretty much a brand new bike to him. Yeah, its a Yamaha motocross bike but WAY different then last years model.

And KTM made a bike just for Dungey. Why hasnt Dungey rode as well as he did on the Zook? Maybe, he has to take some time to get it dialed in and working for him exactly how he wants it to, kinda like James.

newmann wrote:

If you were to guess, just what do you think Stewarts bike weighs when it rolls to the line? Take your best shot. All that billet...

If you were to guess, just what do you think Stewarts bike weighs when it rolls to the line? Take your best shot. All that billet aluminum, electronics, guards, heavy duty tubes, etc. etc. Stock bikes that are bangigng 250 on the scales don't have all that extra stuff.

Hate so much on Yamaha? or just the twelve year old engine in the YZ250F(hey, at least it still runs without a bunch of added weight from all the EFI crap) or the 250 lb. tub o lard 450?

I've had my fill of the modern thumper, don't need any more. And I have zero desire whatsoever for a 1/8 ton 450.

JGR's bike is completely different, or just more refined. You think they would make something completely different without any input from James and his last couple years knowledge and testing of the bikes?

And about Dungey. Has the boy EVER been overly aggressive out there on the track. Same shit every year, mild mannered and polite. "Letting the race come to me". He needs to be more aggro. There is no doubt in my mind that KTM can deliver whatever amount of power he needs out of a 450 and the internals of his suspension could be works parts out of his old Suzuki for all we know. Does anyone here spouting off about the KTM know any of the frame geometry of his bike? Doubt it.

IceMan446 wrote:

On the weight, dont have the slightest idea. I would venture to guess its probably close to the lowest limit they are allowed by the rule...

On the weight, dont have the slightest idea. I would venture to guess its probably close to the lowest limit they are allowed by the rule book.

James rides a completely different bike then he did last year and the year before. Different forks, shock, motor, ergos, tires. The two main pieces that are the same are the swingarm and frame (which could be a little different). I would say thats a way different bike altogether. Which is a tall task to take on for any rider, let alone James. Part of it is his setup, so no excuses.

Dungey has shown flashes of aggression this year. But he doesnt look as good on the KTM as he did on the Suzuki. The big test will be when he hits the outdoors. But the bike was built only because he came to KTM. If he was forced to ride the production KTM how do you think he would be doing on that?

For both James and Dungey, they have had minimal time to get their bikes setup and to try new things since there werent any baselines to go off of. RV, Reed, KW, Weimer, Metty. They have all had time and testing on their bikes for a few years which in the end equates to confidence. Dont care how fast you are, if you dont have confidence in your bike you wont ride well. Dungey and James chose to make the team switches they did. They just need some seat time and it will get figured out.

jasonward73 wrote:

Let's set aside what you all think about how he "looks" on the bike and take a different approach. Let's take a look at the results...

Let's set aside what you all think about how he "looks" on the bike and take a different approach. Let's take a look at the results from 2011 and 2012. Keep in mind 2012 is supposed to be the "MOST STACKED" class ever.

I know, it's a very abstract way to measure success but I think most people would agree checking the scoreboard is always the best measure.

Through 6 rounds Dungey has gone...

2011 - 2, 5, 3, 3, 20, 2 Average finish = 5.8333 (with years and years of development)

2012 - 3, 1, 2, 4, 4, 3 Average Finish = 2.83333 (With NO SX wins ever)

Dungey is averaging a 3 position gain on the KTM vs the Suzuki.

Just for fun here are Andrew Shorts finishes

2011 - 10, 7, 14, 9, 6, 5 Average finish = 8.5 (on the POS underpowered KTM 350)

2012 - 7, 6, 14, 5, 14, 20 Average finish = 11 (on the holy grail of all Factory bikes)

Even if you take out Short's finish last week because he crashed the average finish through the first 5 rounds is the same from 2011 and 2012. Short is no better this year than last, he's actually worse. Shorty finished an average 2.5 positions better on the KTM vs the Honda. Hmmmmm......

Do the #s lie?

Jason

CocaineCrazy wrote:

The Transworld boys had alot of good things to say about that Brand New KTM

fader418 wrote:

Thats just great that a magazine likes a bike. When was the last time Dungey finished a half lap back in 3rd place on a Suzuki?

newmann wrote:

The one that he DNF'd on in SX and lost the championship? Or the one that didn't hold enough fuel to finish the race and lost...

The one that he DNF'd on in SX and lost the championship? Or the one that didn't hold enough fuel to finish the race and lost him the outdoor championship?

fader418 wrote:

Wow this is surprising coming from someone like newmann! Who had a DNQ is SX last year and still won the title? And outdoors Dunge was...

Wow this is surprising coming from someone like newmann! Who had a DNQ is SX last year and still won the title? And outdoors Dunge was only about 4 or 5 points down with a few races to go. RV owned him last year and you know it. Go watch Pala did RV have to win that first moto? No but he sure smoked RD. It sucked to see RD5's bike break a few times last year but he wouldn't have won the titles regardless...

newmann wrote:

The one that he DNF'd on in SX and lost the championship? Or the one that didn't hold enough fuel to finish the race and lost...

The one that he DNF'd on in SX and lost the championship? Or the one that didn't hold enough fuel to finish the race and lost him the outdoor championship?

fader418 wrote:

Wow this is surprising coming from someone like newmann! Who had a DNQ is SX last year and still won the title? And outdoors Dunge was...

Wow this is surprising coming from someone like newmann! Who had a DNQ is SX last year and still won the title? And outdoors Dunge was only about 4 or 5 points down with a few races to go. RV owned him last year and you know it. Go watch Pala did RV have to win that first moto? No but he sure smoked RD. It sucked to see RD5's bike break a few times last year but he wouldn't have won the titles regardless...

newmann wrote:

:P I've said it many times, the Dunge needs to be more aggressive. As long as RV and Reed are out there, it isn't "going to...

I've said it many times, the Dunge needs to be more aggressive. As long as RV and Reed are out there, it isn't "going to come to him". The KTM is looking pretty damn good though.