Hot Rods Crankshaft Catastrophic Failure (KTM 150 SX 2013)

JMX82
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Hyllykallio FI
10/9/2017 4:08am
I have used the thickest base gasket that comes with oem KTM gasket set. I think it's 1 mm in thickness.
David934
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CZ
10/9/2017 5:31am
JMX82 wrote:
It is unbelievable that Hot Rods can carry on selling this kind of crap parts without any responsibility. I'm really torn apart about parting the bike...
It is unbelievable that Hot Rods can carry on selling this kind of crap parts without any responsibility.

I'm really torn apart about parting the bike because I have some really nice parts on like SXS supension etc. Also I have really cheap insurance for it. if I choose to get new bike yearly insurance payment will rise about 1300€/year which is bit too much for me so I would probably have to carry on riding without any insurance.
This bike is road legal or why you pay insurance for that?
jtiger12
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Forest H Ill, MD US
10/9/2017 5:47am
PTshox wrote:
Folks, it's cheaper to just rebuild the stock crank when if fails. Call Ken Oconner racing. He does this for a reasonable fee with a Pro-X...
Folks, it's cheaper to just rebuild the stock crank when if fails. Call Ken Oconner racing. He does this for a reasonable fee with a Pro-X rod kit.

FYI: Also, I had a OEM, HotRods and Wesco cranks for a YZ250 2stroke engine I built up. The crank pin in the wesco crank was much softer then the OE one. I had to cut the cranks in half to press out the pins. When I cut the wesco one it was a LOT easier to go through the metal on the pin vs OE. I used the same tool on both. There was a noticeable difference. I didn't cut the HotRods crank in half. It's still in my garage. I did send the OE one off to Ken and he rebuilt if for me. I felt a lot more comfortable using the OE after this experience.

I maybe interested in that KTM150 chassis if you decide not to rebuild it.
I can second this. I called up Ken after finding galling in the small end of my crank 2 rebuilds in a row. I was tired of buying new oem cranks, and figured I would get his opinion. He diagnosed the failure over the phone with me, and suggested I go with an oem crank rebuild with a new rod. I am 90% sure he used a hot rod as the replacement. I used oem bearings. Welp, 150 motor hours later she is starting to make bottom end noise when she's hot. Looks like my season is over, but I would never hesitate to deal with KOR again.

The Shop

JMX82
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10/9/2017 6:20am
David934 wrote:
This bike is road legal or why you pay insurance for that?
Finnish law requires every vehicle to be insured even if they won't be used on roads and you can't attend to races without one. Even in local club races they check is the bike insured before they let you race. Insurance prices has been going over roof and pretty much killed new bike sales here. In the moment we are the only country in Europe that has this kind of legislation
dirtmike86
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Grand Terrace, CA US
10/9/2017 6:42am
A lot of people saying wiseco is garbage. I read another forum where it was the other way around because hot rods used plastic parts that would break off? I always get mine rebuilt, but are the guys blowing up cranks racing? Or just weekend warriors? Btw sorry about the bike, always feels like you've lost a loved one when your bike grenades.
brocsdad
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Thompsons Station, TN US
10/9/2017 11:57am
Steve D wrote:
Hello, my name is Steve and I am the Customer Service Manager for C&E Companies, as well as several other companies within the Arrowhead Powersports group...
Hello, my name is Steve and I am the Customer Service Manager for C&E Companies, as well as several other companies within the Arrowhead Powersports group. I was recently alerted to this post and wanted to address it personally.

Hot Rods and the rest of the companies within Arrowhead Powersports pride ourselves on the quality of our products. Making sure that we are producing the best and most reliable product we can is definitely the most important aspect within our manufacturing processes. Without going into great detail, I can assure you that we take great steps to ensure that we are producing the best possible products we can. We invest a large sum of money into high tech, precision equipment to help us achieve that goal. All of our products undergo very detailed and stringent manufacturing and quality assurance processes. Those processes and our products are constantly reviewed to ensure we are using the most effective and up to date methods of manufacturing and quality inspection.

JMX82, please contact us at support@pivotworks.com so that we can discuss this matter.
Steve is a great guy and has always taken care of us.

I have a supermini built with a hot rods stroker crank that is on the second owner with over 100 hours and still running strong. I have a friend with the same setup and he was able to get 135 hours out his crank. He replaced his as a preventative maintenance but the crank outlasted the cylinder.

Todd



brocsdad
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10/9/2017 12:01pm
BobPA wrote:
Hot Rods cranks need to be balanced out of the box, the rod is made in the USA believe it or not. I would not hesitate...
Hot Rods cranks need to be balanced out of the box, the rod is made in the USA believe it or not. I would not hesitate to use a balanced hot rods crank with OE bearings. Chinese bearings are very hit or miss.
Yes I had my crank on the super balanced by Crankworks and was told the bearing are the same you will find in OEM Jap bikes.
brocsdad
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Thompsons Station, TN US
10/9/2017 12:06pm
JMX82 wrote:
I have used the thickest base gasket that comes with oem KTM gasket set. I think it's 1 mm in thickness.
You must always check the squish on the KTM's due to their tight tolerance.
NacNac721
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Laughlin, NV US
10/9/2017 12:09pm
I rebuilt my 05 kx 250 using hot rods crank and all oem bearings. I'm hoping it lasts.

Sorry bout ur bike.
10/9/2017 12:10pm
Who did the balance of the crankshaft for you , just curious if it was done by someone good ? Sad deal , hope it wont cost you are fortune buddie.
JMX82
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10/9/2017 12:39pm
Who did the balance of the crankshaft for you , just curious if it was done by someone good ? Sad deal , hope it wont...
Who did the balance of the crankshaft for you , just curious if it was done by someone good ? Sad deal , hope it wont cost you are fortune buddie.
The crankshaft balance was checked by a local mechanic who has done cranks for decades and built speedway engines for professional racers . Sadly the guy passed away just a week ago
JMX82
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10/9/2017 12:41pm
brocsdad wrote:
You must always check the squish on the KTM's due to their tight tolerance.
I have had several KTM's before and newer have had any problems with the squish clearance before
10/9/2017 1:21pm
JMX82 wrote:
The crankshaft balance was checked by a local mechanic who has done cranks for decades and built speedway engines for professional racers . Sadly the guy...
The crankshaft balance was checked by a local mechanic who has done cranks for decades and built speedway engines for professional racers . Sadly the guy passed away just a week ago
That is sad to hear. I never had Hot Rods but i believe you probably ended up with some bad luck. Well atleast it was no fourstroke blowing up on you!
PFitzG38
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Newport Beach, CA US
10/9/2017 3:37pm
probably need to replace that
10/9/2017 6:31pm Edited Date/Time 10/9/2017 6:36pm
So my Athena yz144 I do OEM bottom every 40 hours. Athena Top every 20. Treated me well thus far.

I skimmed through but how many hours were on your top end ? 27 ? I've seen guys do just top ends (after 40 though) and they grenade because the old rod can't handle the new compression from the fresh piston.

Never used a hot rods crank and when I see it listed on used bikes for sale I pass....or quickly pull it out and rebuild with oem. But I mean people have oem cranks that grenade too. Coulda just been just bad luck. Stings when it happens but it could be worse right?

My wrx just grenaded last month at 56,000 miles. Talk about money. Vomit. I'll never complain about a 2 stroke or 4 stroke grenade again...EVER. So atleast yours was a 2 smoker!!
David934
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10/9/2017 11:33pm
David934 wrote:
This bike is road legal or why you pay insurance for that?
JMX82 wrote:
Finnish law requires every vehicle to be insured even if they won't be used on roads and you can't attend to races without one. Even in...
Finnish law requires every vehicle to be insured even if they won't be used on roads and you can't attend to races without one. Even in local club races they check is the bike insured before they let you race. Insurance prices has been going over roof and pretty much killed new bike sales here. In the moment we are the only country in Europe that has this kind of legislation
Ohh, 1300 for one year is toooo much. We pay also insurance but is just for racing and is about 10eur/one race, which is good. Otherwise we do not need to pay any insurance for dirt bikes.
Motofinne
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10/9/2017 11:40pm Edited Date/Time 10/9/2017 11:50pm
David934 wrote:
This bike is road legal or why you pay insurance for that?
JMX82 wrote:
Finnish law requires every vehicle to be insured even if they won't be used on roads and you can't attend to races without one. Even in...
Finnish law requires every vehicle to be insured even if they won't be used on roads and you can't attend to races without one. Even in local club races they check is the bike insured before they let you race. Insurance prices has been going over roof and pretty much killed new bike sales here. In the moment we are the only country in Europe that has this kind of legislation
David934 wrote:
Ohh, 1300 for one year is toooo much. We pay also insurance but is just for racing and is about 10eur/one race, which is good. Otherwise...
Ohh, 1300 for one year is toooo much. We pay also insurance but is just for racing and is about 10eur/one race, which is good. Otherwise we do not need to pay any insurance for dirt bikes.
Yeah it's crazy here in Finland but the problem has been that the insurance that was/is required is "too good".

It pays for basically everything. If you have a crash it will replace your gear, your bike damage(in some cases), all medical costs, money for the pain + money if you have to take time off work.

10 years ago the insurance was around 500-600€ for a 450, now some companies charge 4000€ for it. They basically don't want to sell the insurance because it's "too good" and lots of people started to take advantage of it.

The cheapest insurance you can get on a new 450 is around 1300-1400€/year. I pay 1400€ for my 2017 KTM 450.

Some people don't want to buy new bikes because like JMX82 mentioned, they still have the insurance from a few years ago on their bike when it was relatively cheap and they would have to get a new insurance on a new bike. That is the biggest reason why MX is in a free fall here and cross country/enduro(actual road legal and registered bikes have way cheaper insurances and they keep their value way better than a MX bike = more affordable compared to MX) is gaining. People can't afford to buy new bikes or even second hand bikes.
JMX82
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10/9/2017 11:58pm
27 hours on the crankshaft and 14 hours on the piston.

I guess I have learnt my lesson here and from now on I will check the squish band clearance every time I assemble engine.

I was lucky enough to find used engine cases for cheap price and I'm currently looking for a place to send the cylinder for replating/welding. I will start soon building the bike to its former glory
David934
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CZ
10/10/2017 12:13am
JMX82 wrote:
Finnish law requires every vehicle to be insured even if they won't be used on roads and you can't attend to races without one. Even in...
Finnish law requires every vehicle to be insured even if they won't be used on roads and you can't attend to races without one. Even in local club races they check is the bike insured before they let you race. Insurance prices has been going over roof and pretty much killed new bike sales here. In the moment we are the only country in Europe that has this kind of legislation
David934 wrote:
Ohh, 1300 for one year is toooo much. We pay also insurance but is just for racing and is about 10eur/one race, which is good. Otherwise...
Ohh, 1300 for one year is toooo much. We pay also insurance but is just for racing and is about 10eur/one race, which is good. Otherwise we do not need to pay any insurance for dirt bikes.
Motofinne wrote:
Yeah it's crazy here in Finland but the problem has been that the insurance that was/is required is "too good". It pays for basically everything. If...
Yeah it's crazy here in Finland but the problem has been that the insurance that was/is required is "too good".

It pays for basically everything. If you have a crash it will replace your gear, your bike damage(in some cases), all medical costs, money for the pain + money if you have to take time off work.

10 years ago the insurance was around 500-600€ for a 450, now some companies charge 4000€ for it. They basically don't want to sell the insurance because it's "too good" and lots of people started to take advantage of it.

The cheapest insurance you can get on a new 450 is around 1300-1400€/year. I pay 1400€ for my 2017 KTM 450.

Some people don't want to buy new bikes because like JMX82 mentioned, they still have the insurance from a few years ago on their bike when it was relatively cheap and they would have to get a new insurance on a new bike. That is the biggest reason why MX is in a free fall here and cross country/enduro(actual road legal and registered bikes have way cheaper insurances and they keep their value way better than a MX bike = more affordable compared to MX) is gaining. People can't afford to buy new bikes or even second hand bikes.
This money is crazy. You can say, thats a reason why Finland have better /known/ Enduro riders then MX? And what doing your motorcycle federation with this?
PTshox
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Location
Highland Village, TX US
10/10/2017 12:20am
PTshox wrote:
Folks, it's cheaper to just rebuild the stock crank when if fails. Call Ken Oconner racing. He does this for a reasonable fee with a Pro-X...
Folks, it's cheaper to just rebuild the stock crank when if fails. Call Ken Oconner racing. He does this for a reasonable fee with a Pro-X rod kit.

FYI: Also, I had a OEM, HotRods and Wesco cranks for a YZ250 2stroke engine I built up. The crank pin in the wesco crank was much softer then the OE one. I had to cut the cranks in half to press out the pins. When I cut the wesco one it was a LOT easier to go through the metal on the pin vs OE. I used the same tool on both. There was a noticeable difference. I didn't cut the HotRods crank in half. It's still in my garage. I did send the OE one off to Ken and he rebuilt if for me. I felt a lot more comfortable using the OE after this experience.

I maybe interested in that KTM150 chassis if you decide not to rebuild it.
jtiger12 wrote:
I can second this. I called up Ken after finding galling in the small end of my crank 2 rebuilds in a row. I was tired...
I can second this. I called up Ken after finding galling in the small end of my crank 2 rebuilds in a row. I was tired of buying new oem cranks, and figured I would get his opinion. He diagnosed the failure over the phone with me, and suggested I go with an oem crank rebuild with a new rod. I am 90% sure he used a hot rod as the replacement. I used oem bearings. Welp, 150 motor hours later she is starting to make bottom end noise when she's hot. Looks like my season is over, but I would never hesitate to deal with KOR again.
Pretty sure Ken used Pro-X rods on the OE crank rebuilds he does.
Motofinne
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10/10/2017 12:25am Edited Date/Time 10/10/2017 12:26am
David934 wrote:
Ohh, 1300 for one year is toooo much. We pay also insurance but is just for racing and is about 10eur/one race, which is good. Otherwise...
Ohh, 1300 for one year is toooo much. We pay also insurance but is just for racing and is about 10eur/one race, which is good. Otherwise we do not need to pay any insurance for dirt bikes.
Motofinne wrote:
Yeah it's crazy here in Finland but the problem has been that the insurance that was/is required is "too good". It pays for basically everything. If...
Yeah it's crazy here in Finland but the problem has been that the insurance that was/is required is "too good".

It pays for basically everything. If you have a crash it will replace your gear, your bike damage(in some cases), all medical costs, money for the pain + money if you have to take time off work.

10 years ago the insurance was around 500-600€ for a 450, now some companies charge 4000€ for it. They basically don't want to sell the insurance because it's "too good" and lots of people started to take advantage of it.

The cheapest insurance you can get on a new 450 is around 1300-1400€/year. I pay 1400€ for my 2017 KTM 450.

Some people don't want to buy new bikes because like JMX82 mentioned, they still have the insurance from a few years ago on their bike when it was relatively cheap and they would have to get a new insurance on a new bike. That is the biggest reason why MX is in a free fall here and cross country/enduro(actual road legal and registered bikes have way cheaper insurances and they keep their value way better than a MX bike = more affordable compared to MX) is gaining. People can't afford to buy new bikes or even second hand bikes.
David934 wrote:
This money is crazy. You can say, thats a reason why Finland have better /known/ Enduro riders then MX? And what doing your motorcycle federation with...
This money is crazy. You can say, thats a reason why Finland have better /known/ Enduro riders then MX? And what doing your motorcycle federation with this?
Well the federation is trying to do something but it's too late(in my opinion). It will be difficult to build back the relatively strong MX scene in Finland. MX is so expensive(if you want to race) and the level of competition is decreasing every year at all levels.

They were close to get a new law through the parliament 1 or 2 years ago but they fucked it up on the finish line. Probably not good enough lobbying.

It's sad to see but all we can do is hope that there will be a solution soon. It's incredibly difficult to attract new riders to the sport when it's that expensive. And without riders, no federation or races. I hope they(SML, the federation) understands that.

This is a bit off topic haha.

Good to hear that JMX82 found used engine cases though!
JMX82
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10/10/2017 1:28am
Yeah the insurance situation here is getting unbearable here. My girlfriend asked insurance price for her Chinese 125cc pit bike and cheapest offer was 1700€/year. That is almost three times of the bike value. She decided not to get the bike insured...

It's going to be pretty quiet in the races soon if somethings not done. Many of my friends have already quit racing because they don't afford to pay insurance fees. Finnish federation has been awfully quiet about the situation apart from few statements that won't help anything.
Rockinar
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Katy, TX US
10/10/2017 1:40am
jtiger12 wrote:
I can second this. I called up Ken after finding galling in the small end of my crank 2 rebuilds in a row. I was tired...
I can second this. I called up Ken after finding galling in the small end of my crank 2 rebuilds in a row. I was tired of buying new oem cranks, and figured I would get his opinion. He diagnosed the failure over the phone with me, and suggested I go with an oem crank rebuild with a new rod. I am 90% sure he used a hot rod as the replacement. I used oem bearings. Welp, 150 motor hours later she is starting to make bottom end noise when she's hot. Looks like my season is over, but I would never hesitate to deal with KOR again.


Ken strictly uses Pro X. No way he put Hot Rods in it. The guy does not operate like that.
David934
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CZ
10/10/2017 5:24am
Tough situation, hope that will be better. Motofinne and JMX82 thank for explaining. Good for JMX82 he will be riding soon.
10/10/2017 6:35am
Wow the insurance is insane ! In America it costs $90/year. Fire, theft and $500 deductible for other losses. I never claim anything unless it stolen or burns up. Man they need to fix that crap. That's crippling. 5 years worth of insurance in your country is equivalent to buying a new bike.
Panic_Rev
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Fayetteville, AR US
10/10/2017 6:48am
Motofinne wrote:
Yeah it's crazy here in Finland but the problem has been that the insurance that was/is required is "too good". It pays for basically everything. If...
Yeah it's crazy here in Finland but the problem has been that the insurance that was/is required is "too good".

It pays for basically everything. If you have a crash it will replace your gear, your bike damage(in some cases), all medical costs, money for the pain + money if you have to take time off work.

10 years ago the insurance was around 500-600€ for a 450, now some companies charge 4000€ for it. They basically don't want to sell the insurance because it's "too good" and lots of people started to take advantage of it.

The cheapest insurance you can get on a new 450 is around 1300-1400€/year. I pay 1400€ for my 2017 KTM 450.

Some people don't want to buy new bikes because like JMX82 mentioned, they still have the insurance from a few years ago on their bike when it was relatively cheap and they would have to get a new insurance on a new bike. That is the biggest reason why MX is in a free fall here and cross country/enduro(actual road legal and registered bikes have way cheaper insurances and they keep their value way better than a MX bike = more affordable compared to MX) is gaining. People can't afford to buy new bikes or even second hand bikes.
"It pays for basically everything. If you have a crash it will replace your gear, your bike damage(in some cases), all medical costs, money for the pain + money if you have to take time off work."

The cost is high because it covers medical cost and time off work. I thought you guys had free health insurance? Why do you need a policy to cover those cost? Also, here we would need to pay insurance for theft ($90/yr), health insurance (free-$1000/mo depending on employer/self-employed), and disability coverage to pay for missed work ($5-70/mo for STD). Add those up and let's say you are spending $6-7k/year for the average person.

Motofinne
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10/10/2017 7:21am Edited Date/Time 10/10/2017 7:22am
Motofinne wrote:
Yeah it's crazy here in Finland but the problem has been that the insurance that was/is required is "too good". It pays for basically everything. If...
Yeah it's crazy here in Finland but the problem has been that the insurance that was/is required is "too good".

It pays for basically everything. If you have a crash it will replace your gear, your bike damage(in some cases), all medical costs, money for the pain + money if you have to take time off work.

10 years ago the insurance was around 500-600€ for a 450, now some companies charge 4000€ for it. They basically don't want to sell the insurance because it's "too good" and lots of people started to take advantage of it.

The cheapest insurance you can get on a new 450 is around 1300-1400€/year. I pay 1400€ for my 2017 KTM 450.

Some people don't want to buy new bikes because like JMX82 mentioned, they still have the insurance from a few years ago on their bike when it was relatively cheap and they would have to get a new insurance on a new bike. That is the biggest reason why MX is in a free fall here and cross country/enduro(actual road legal and registered bikes have way cheaper insurances and they keep their value way better than a MX bike = more affordable compared to MX) is gaining. People can't afford to buy new bikes or even second hand bikes.
Panic_Rev wrote:
"It pays for basically everything. If you have a crash it will replace your gear, your bike damage(in some cases), all medical costs, money for the...
"It pays for basically everything. If you have a crash it will replace your gear, your bike damage(in some cases), all medical costs, money for the pain + money if you have to take time off work."

The cost is high because it covers medical cost and time off work. I thought you guys had free health insurance? Why do you need a policy to cover those cost? Also, here we would need to pay insurance for theft ($90/yr), health insurance (free-$1000/mo depending on employer/self-employed), and disability coverage to pay for missed work ($5-70/mo for STD). Add those up and let's say you are spending $6-7k/year for the average person.

We have free health care but the bike insurance is good for people with own small businesses that just "can't" be away from the work. They still get paid from the insurance company while laying on the couch/rehabilitating.

And the bike insurance allows a person to turn to private medical care. You could go the public route but the waiting lines for surgeries is way longer than on the private sector. I remember that i had surgery on my ACL 1½ week after the crash when i went with my insurance company. I would've waited 4-5 weeks if i would've went the public route.

Yeah i forgot to add that the "traffic insurance"(that is what it's called) will also cover the other parties damage if you happen to cause a crash on the track. Lets say that i jump on someones back and he gets badly injured, my insurance will cover that.

Like i said the biggest issue with this is the gear/bike part. People(me included) started to take new helmets, gear etc after crashes through the insurance company. That is one part of why the fees sky rocketed.

And like JMX82 said, the parliament fucked up back in the day. This insurance is mandatory to the law. That is why our federation has tried to get through a new law that removes the need of it like in all other countries. Too bad that they are completely useless and haven't figured it out even though this has been a huge problem for years. The licence for racing costs 450€, it includes a basic insurance but it only covers up to 10k€ if i remember it right(i might be wrong).

And keep in mind that no one else(other sports) in this country needs a insurance like this. We are the only ones that have this incredibly outdated and stupid regulation. And we are the only country in Europe with something like this. Too bad that this is killing Finnish moto. It's not a coincidence that we had our worst ever MXdN this year.
Panic_Rev
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Fayetteville, AR US
10/10/2017 7:33am
Motofinne wrote:
We have free health care but the bike insurance is good for people with own small businesses that just "can't" be away from the work. They...
We have free health care but the bike insurance is good for people with own small businesses that just "can't" be away from the work. They still get paid from the insurance company while laying on the couch/rehabilitating.

And the bike insurance allows a person to turn to private medical care. You could go the public route but the waiting lines for surgeries is way longer than on the private sector. I remember that i had surgery on my ACL 1½ week after the crash when i went with my insurance company. I would've waited 4-5 weeks if i would've went the public route.

Yeah i forgot to add that the "traffic insurance"(that is what it's called) will also cover the other parties damage if you happen to cause a crash on the track. Lets say that i jump on someones back and he gets badly injured, my insurance will cover that.

Like i said the biggest issue with this is the gear/bike part. People(me included) started to take new helmets, gear etc after crashes through the insurance company. That is one part of why the fees sky rocketed.

And like JMX82 said, the parliament fucked up back in the day. This insurance is mandatory to the law. That is why our federation has tried to get through a new law that removes the need of it like in all other countries. Too bad that they are completely useless and haven't figured it out even though this has been a huge problem for years. The licence for racing costs 450€, it includes a basic insurance but it only covers up to 10k€ if i remember it right(i might be wrong).

And keep in mind that no one else(other sports) in this country needs a insurance like this. We are the only ones that have this incredibly outdated and stupid regulation. And we are the only country in Europe with something like this. Too bad that this is killing Finnish moto. It's not a coincidence that we had our worst ever MXdN this year.
being forced into purchasing something is never fun.

That would suck so bad if you had to wait 4-5 weeks for medical treatment. I guess that is what comes with free healthcare. Stories like yours make me wonder why so many people in America want free coverage. I think they see the free side of it, but not the side effects that come with it.

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