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KTM doesn't give a shit about Moto GP? FAIL. (Be sure to remember that over the next few seasons...)
Dakar? Let's see where Honda ends up with this years effort...their 1st legit Factory effort in virtually forever...as you noted.
When you go and do your homework on Niche Marketing...then...then you can come in here and act like you know what the fuck you're talking about.
O.K.?
Honda has a few models you could pick from...that have out-sold KTM's COMPLETE LINE-UP WORLDWIDE.
Do the Math...one model versus their WHOLE line-up...Got it?
KTM has more Models than Honda could care to remember; hence, Niche Marketing.
That's where they're BOTH Ubber-Smart and Strong.
They BOTH have their strengths.
Besides, you could have just made a Harsh-Stinging point and Listed ALL the various 2013 MX World and National Titles; but, you had to go All Political-n-Shit.
BTW, I'm us' fkn witcha!
Nice.
1X!
The Shop
KTM owns WP, right (or most of WP)?
I heard the new KTM WP forks were showa clones. OH SNAP!
Look, I know KTM is kicking ass right now but they were only able to claim any sort of dominance here in the USA when they got RDeC, RD5, and some linkage. All of which happened in the last couple of years. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the competition just yet. This shit goes in cycles. Even Suzuki has had some good years (who would have thought back in the early 90s that Suzuki would have any success....ever?)
Fifteen years ago not even the hydro clutch, OEM fatbars, adjustable bar mounts and brembo brakes were enough to beat Japan's stock steel bars, clutch cables and solid mounted bars. Sticking fancy shit on your bike is one thing, making the bike work right is another. KTM is having a good run but this does not guarantee future success. And let's not forget McGrath's dislocated hip and Andrew Short's busted arms.
In summary....yes, KTM is kicking ass! They worked hard and deserve it. However.......chill out KTM dudes.
Nope, not at the moment. hell it has not been for AGES, just recently they started to push harder to beat Honda. And it was with private funds two years ago!! Their big aim is still Dakar. That's where the points need to be scored for worldwide marketing. Most people know Dakar more then they do Baja1000. Never seen a Baja 1000 race on TV here, seen lot's of Dakar shows tho. Must be a braoder audiance don't ya think? Broader audiance equels more efficient marketing.
Marco Coma himself explained how the Baja is mostly unknown on this side of the pond. That's my whole point, KTM is not pushing to use the BAJA as a marketing tool because Dakar, Dubai and the Qatar Sealine Rally are better options. Broader audiance then Baja. I'm not dissing Baja as a race, it's tough and impressive and unique in itself. But the marketing value is not bigger then the other races. Again, that was my point.
But if you measure a brands competence on their Baja wins then that is your choice, i like to look a bit further then that.
How many Honda's over KTM's competed this year?
They want the motocross, enduro and adventure bike business first and they are claiming it. Look around when you're out, what did the colour change over the last years? It did not get any more red over here atleast. I think the orange is making their way into the US traks aswell. Mission accomplished then i guess.
Ofcourse i have seen the thing, making a bike does not equal winning. or does it? And about damn time after all those years? I hope they put up a good fight, great for the sport and for us costumours. Racing put's the factory's to work to make better bikes. Same goes for every form of off-road racing for that matter.
Never said Honda was weak, Honda is just not the strong force they used to be inside the MX world. Atleast not for consumer sales. THAT was the whole point. Not about who outsells who in other markets, it's about the MX market. And currently KTM is setting their stamp and nibbling away market share of the other OEM's. Wil KTM be as big as Honda is in the other markets like cars and robots
They both have their strenghts indeed, can't argue on that.
Honda is a parasite that sucks the lifeblood out of every series they participate in in order to perfectly suit their R&D agenda.
Let's get this party started.
They completely ruined GP road racing, 125, 250, and 500. so badly that their flagship rider is retiring, and actually stating he would rather ride Michelins 500cc two-stroke tire testing bike. The move to 990cc four-strokes was orchestrated by them, as was snatching up Valentino Rossi to campaign it. They fucked this series so badly that their bike is "spec" in the moto2 class, and was almost spec in the moto3 class, save for KTM throwing a bike together (and kicking Honda's ass with it)
They manipulated WSBK in 99-00 for the change to allow 1000cc for their V-Twin RC51 since they could not touch Ducati's 916 with their POS RC45, (that thing cost 20k+ back in the mid 90s I believe) which in-turn led to the rule change to 1000cc across the board, since (you guessed it) 750cc displacement did not suit their R&D agenda, but 1000cc did. Just a couple years later they switched to the CBR1000RR and the rest is history.
When they saw that they could not control Formula 1 to suit their own R&D agenda, they pulled out. Honda will NOT compete in a series with rules they did not write themselves.
When they flirted with NASCAR and their Accord, but saw that they would not use the series to suit their R&D agenda, they backed out.
i'm not done.
They ruined Japanese GT racing, which was production based cars. (Skylines, Supras, ect.) since they failed to produce a top flight production car, they coerced SuperGT into allowing their non-production tube chassis front engine V8 race car. (supposedly an NSX replacement) People used to love watching what looked like the cars they buy and drive over there, but now its all carbon-bodied tube chassis cars that hardly resemble production. Thanks Honda.
Turns out, in premier class American MX, that CRF450 has one title only. 2004 outdoor MX with Richard Carmichael, and zero SX titles.
It is what it is, and I promote riding whatever the fuck you want to ride. Preaching to someone else what they should or shouldn't ride is an agenda, which would make you no better than Honda.
That is EXACTLY what Honda is.
Lets face it Honda does not make a CRF450 for the pros. it makes one for the masses i.e. handles well, is not so overpowered, is reliable, etc. The Kawa 450 has the same type of fork as the honda 450 yet no one complains about its 'leaky forks'. That is why Honda doesnt give a rats ass if the Kawa/KTM etc make a couple more HP, it knows what is required to do for 99% of riders out there. Although most in the know know that the CRF450 makes quite a few more HP with aftermarket exhausts on if you need more power.
Some say well the KTM350 makes more HP than the Honda, yep it sure does but does a highly strung (revs very high) bike like that that makes good HP for its CC going to be as reliable and usable for the masses?? I dont think so...
Do I hate KTM no, just making a fact that everyone overlooks, 99% of you in Vital would not ride a 450 to its limits anyway let alone a bike that you have to ride like a 125 i.e. pin it and only shift when it hits the rev limiter :-)
imho
There is a lot of truth to your statement about the bike being aimed at the masses; however, w/ some air pressure & compression (adj. rebound as needed) & map it...maybe a stiffer rear spring...& most Pro's can SHRED on it!
The same can be said for the Green & Yellow 450s, too (I'm not a fan of the new Zooks fork, tho)
Problem is, nobody wants to hear it.
Marketing, features and being part of the cool kids club is what most americans want these days. Honda knows this. It's an easy formula. Electric starters, EFI and all kinds of new features to fix problems that never existed previously shrouded by cool looking new plastic is much easier to swallow while the money sucks out the wallet.
This sentence sums it nicely.
"When they saw that they could not control Formula 1 to suit their own R&D agenda, they pulled out. Honda will NOT compete in a series with rules they did not write themselves."
The World according to angry guys wearing TIn-Foil hats.
Classic.
Especially the part where the genius comments on Honda's costing a Ton of Money in the Face of Ducati...
Genius!
Pit Row
Let's get this party started:
Gp. Honda did not make the FIM switch to four strokes, they saw the writing on the wall that there are no more street-legal 2-strokes, and knowing that as time went on, the public would no longer feel a connection to it.
Honda didn't recruit Rossi to campaign the Rc211v, he had already rode for Honda for two years, and had won a world championship on the Nsr500 for them. Stoner is leaving Moto gp because he has nothing left to prove, and doesn't want to get injured again. Moto 2, someone else could have stepped up but noone did, so Honda developed a motor for the series. Moto 3, Ktm has won, but to say they are "kicking Honda's ass" is ludicrous.
So far, it's not looking good for you, but I'm not done.
WSB. Yes, the Ducati was dominant, in the years after the (all-conquering)1988 rc30 began to get long in the tooth, when they came out with the 916 in ''94. So Honda developed the 750cc rc45, but couldn't compete with the 916cc Ducati, but still won a lot of races against it, just no championship. So when Ducati came out with the 996 , the formula was changed to accomodate Ducati. So Honda made the Rc51, a 998cc twin of it's own. And won a world chmpionship using Ducati's V-twin formula.
F1, you've got to be kidding me, you are really ignorant on this subject. Honda was involved in F1 from the mid sixties until 2006, about 40 years. the formula has changed every few years all along, and Honda could never hope to control that.
Nascar. Honda doesn't make a V-8, how did you think they would ever compete in this series? It was never a serios consideration for them.
Japanese Gt??? Uhhh, Ok. I guess I'll give you that one. But tube frame cars in a series that don't resemble street cars, aren't you talking about Nascar again? Sorry Honda ruined your Japanese Gt racing that has never been on tv in this country, so I guess you followed it in the Japanese papers.
Turns out, in Premeir class american Mx, Honda has more titles than anyone. Guess they have been manipulating the rules and changing the formula to do that. The Crf250r has plenty of titles, but I guess you don't want to mention it.
I never preached to anyone what they should ride, just defending Honda against ludicrous claims from wackos like you.
Oh, one more thing: If Honda manipulates and controls every series around the globe for it's own agenda and dictates the formulas, don't you think then would be winning a hell of a lot more races and series???
Soichiro would be proud, too. He'd even tolerate these kooks better than we have...
"If you hire only those people you understand, the company will never get people better than you are. Always remember that you often find outstanding people among those you don't particularly like."
Honda started the 4 stroke marketing and pushed it hard. Did you forget the days when K-Dub and RC where riding the foopers? They had the perfect riders to fire it off, 2 of the most respected guys in the sport. It was perfect!
Make FIM and AMA to almost double the displacement in the big boys class and double it in the lights, man that could not get any better! The huge ammounts of marketing everywhere from Honda right at that time was also not for nothing. The US market was on it's way to be conquered again, and still is. Their plan worked and their 4strokes are selling. R&D budget payed off.
Honda has been busy developping 4strokes for ages. just like in '79 when the 2stroke field in the motoGP was suprised by the 500 4stroke Honda. It failed ofcourse. After 4 years they finally had a winning 2stroke formula and rider. But then they faded after and the european riders and brands took over the sport. Honda did not like that since the US is a big market for them. No US riders no US intrest means no market. Meanwhile Honda makes the deal with the other japs to develop 4strokes (indeed the respect between them is huge). When they are at their prime of development (AND when Honda has Rossi at the same time for helping development, since the guy can make almost any bike win, we all know that)
Honda pushes the FIM and Dorna into the 4strokes. Et voila, they just swept away competition with their power.
To bad KTM was on their game when 2strokes where declared dead for the rookie classes.
But hey that is all made up right? Honda had 0 influence in the switch from 2 to 4 strokes or by switching up formulas in orther sports. Hell they did not see most of it comming. Or did they?
It is because they aimed for market share. They got what they wanted. What is the point in winning ALL races in ALL series when your decade long 4stroke R&D plane has landed?
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