Honda taking up the fight against KTM !

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11/4/2012 12:35 AM
Edited Date/Time: 11/4/2012 12:36 AM

Great to see Honda starting to take up the fight against ktm ! Both in mx and enduro.


It was many years ago that Honda had so many good riders as the brand will have in 2013:

US: Chad Reed, Justin Barcia, Trey Canard, Andrew Short, Kevin Windham....Dean Wilson ?

World MX: Max Nagl, Evgeny Bobryshev, David Philippaerts, Tanel Leok, Steve Ramon,


Enduro: David Knight

Also cool to see HRC starting up that new Dakar team.

In general it seems that Honda finally is starting to comeback and atleast try to reach the old days , like the honda glory in the 80's and 90's

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11/4/2012 1:24 AM

A minor speed up in preventing the inevitable. Sorry buddy.

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11/4/2012 4:12 AM

Glory days like the 80s and 90s?? Umm...not even close.

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Chuck Norris is 1/8th Scottish. This has nothing to do with ancestry, the man ate a fucking Scotsman!

11/4/2012 5:40 AM

TerryK wrote:

Glory days like the 80s and 90s?? Umm...not even close.

I agree TK, in the 80's they had damn near every good rider on bikes twice as good.

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11/4/2012 5:49 AM

Some of those riders are not even on factory bikes. ie David Philippaerts, Tanel Leok, Steve Ramon

Dont think anyone can keep up with the development going in to the KTMs at the moment.

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11/4/2012 6:11 AM

TerryK wrote:

Glory days like the 80s and 90s?? Umm...not even close.

look out below wrote:

I agree TK, in the 80's they had damn near every good rider on bikes twice as good.

Yeah, but in the Team Honda glory days of the 80's, Honda operated under the belief that you "got what you paid for"...and Honda spent plenty on men & machinery. The current economy has made that a thing if the past...and Honda has let other manufacturers roll over them because of huge mistakes & (in some cases) even inferior equipment.

KTM looks like the Honda of old. Good job by Honda, but it might be a case of too little too late.

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11/4/2012 6:12 AM
Edited Date/Time: 11/4/2012 6:13 AM

darren7878 wrote:

Some of those riders are not even on factory bikes. ie David Philippaerts, Tanel Leok, Steve Ramon

Dont think anyone can ...more

Do you really believe that? Honda Is a 54 billion dollar company. They could buy ktm with the profit they make in one quarter. It comes down to will not resources

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11/4/2012 6:29 AM

In AMA Supercross maybe.

In terms of building bikes to fit the consumers needs, Honda was knocked out in the first round.

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11/4/2012 8:00 AM
Edited Date/Time: 11/4/2012 8:00 AM

Agreed, gonna need more models and passion in all types of racing, not just a few........and less accountants.

They COULD do it, they have the resources and great platforms to start with, but they won't.

Honda are doing one good thing, trying to get people on bikes with versatility and great gas mileage, check out the new 700 street bike and the 250L. Not the new DT1, but an effort.

"Ready to Race".....umm, no.

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11/4/2012 8:07 AM

darren7878 wrote:

Some of those riders are not even on factory bikes. ie David Philippaerts, Tanel Leok, Steve Ramon

Dont think anyone can ...more

jtiger12 wrote:

Do you really believe that? Honda Is a 54 billion dollar company. They could buy ktm with the profit they make in one quarter. ...more

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Four wheels move the body, two wheels move the soul.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you learn.

11/4/2012 10:28 AM

Well honda went from the best bike to the worst in 2009. That must be based on top managements bad decision. From what i understand that has not affected Hondas market share in USA which is very strange. The 2009 bike must have been a succesful cost down project.

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11/4/2012 10:29 AM

Reading this thread is the ultimate realization of ALL Things "Internet".

Classic.

Btw, where's KTM's sub $5K Dual-Sport w/ 6 gears & buddy-pegs? And...when are THEY gonna race something like THAT at the Baja 1000?

I'm jus' sayin'...

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11/4/2012 10:51 AM
Edited Date/Time: 11/4/2012 10:51 AM

Maybe a bit weak on the dirt part of the "dual-sport" :-)

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11/4/2012 11:00 AM

TeamGreen wrote:

Reading this thread is the ultimate realization of ALL Things "Internet".

Classic.

Btw, where's KTM's sub $5K Dual-Sport ...more

Honda has that bike and races it in the 1000?

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11/4/2012 11:21 AM

TeamGreen wrote:

Reading this thread is the ultimate realization of ALL Things "Internet".

Classic.

Btw, where's KTM's sub $5K Dual-Sport ...more

lappedrider wrote:

Honda has that bike and races it in the 1000?

I believe TG is talking about the XR650R, it fits the above description and I believe is still very competitive at the 1000.

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11/4/2012 11:39 AM

darren7878 wrote:

Some of those riders are not even on factory bikes. ie David Philippaerts, Tanel Leok, Steve Ramon

Dont think anyone can ...more

jtiger12 wrote:

Do you really believe that? Honda Is a 54 billion dollar company. They could buy ktm with the profit they make in one quarter. ...more

Yes I do, because MX and Enduro bikes are not Honda's core business and no matter that Honda is a 54 billion dollar company they are not investing in MX like KTM are.

KTM's continued investment all around the world is paying off. The japanese factories 3+ year models will struggle against a brand updating heavily every year.

Look at the 2013 KTM 350 gained something like 5 bhp in one year and putting out more power than a CRF450.

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11/4/2012 12:45 PM
Edited Date/Time: 11/4/2012 12:46 PM

jtiger12 wrote:

Do you really believe that? Honda Is a 54 billion dollar company. They could buy ktm with the profit they make in one quarter. ...more

And how much of that 54 billion do you think is dirt bikes? I'd argue that it's barely 10 million of it (generously). Honda's primary focus is elsewhere, whereas KTM is only a motorcycle company.

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11/4/2012 12:58 PM

TeamGreen wrote:

Reading this thread is the ultimate realization of ALL Things "Internet".

Classic.

Btw, where's KTM's sub $5K Dual-Sport ...more

lappedrider wrote:

Honda has that bike and races it in the 1000?

race250r wrote:

I believe TG is talking about the XR650R, it fits the above description and I believe is still very competitive at the 1000.

Yeah, and where is Honda's electric off road bike? Their 2 stroke line? Dedicated cross country, Enduro and moto line. Where's their freeride 350 foo foo bike? Where's their adventure bike?

I'm a massive Nagl fan, but he isn't going to finish top 3 next year, Ramon was cruising for 2 years even before his neck injury, Tanel Leok and Philli are on the downslope too as is Knight in enduro.

They haven't won a MX2 GP since Marvin started stringing wins together, while his team weren't even paying him, where were Honda then? If they had stepped up support they would have had a world championship that year, instead it went to KTM.....

Barcia's my wildcard for a championship next year, i'll give Honda that but......

What do we, the consumer get from Honda, threats that they'll leave the show if 2 strokes are granted a level playing field, a dog of a 150 mini bike for youths.....

KTM are giving consumers what they want; choice and a bike that can be raced straight out the crate. Honda will continue to sell what they want us market.

Honda aren't taking shit to KTM, they don't even want too, it's near certainty they won't win a championship outside the states, and we're a market that barely figures in their 54 billion dollar company but hey that's cool cause they racing dakar and have 20 year old XR650L that you can race with your buddy hangin' pillion down to mexico......

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11/4/2012 1:18 PM

That is my point, entirely. They are not going to dump a ton of money into mx rnd like ktm does. Crfs are still popular and selling as the industry continues to decline in new bike sales. To say however, that Honda couldn't match ktms effort in bike development is ridiculous. They choose not to. They probably spend more in developing the Honda fit than they do on the crf 450.

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11/4/2012 2:46 PM

If Honda cared about selling mx bikes , I'd bet they would still have a cr 250. This isn't 2004-2008 where everyone loves and wants a four stroke. We've all had one by now and know they aren't the be all end all.

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11/4/2012 3:17 PM

I did a national dual sport today. Almost every bike was a ktm, and as I am sitting there eating my hot dog, I asked myself, why do jap bikes not enter into it. I wonder what the number of enduro bikes sold in us vs mx bikes is? Ktm has this market cornered for sure and is gaining ground big time in the mx market. It is a whole market approach....Dad rides a KTM so JR wants one too, ktm now makes good bikes for all classes and types of riding. ......I wonder how long til the MX circuit resembles the hare scramble/enduro/dual sport market.....When I was a kid the kawasaki KDX was the bomb for enduro and I never heard of KTM.....

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11/4/2012 3:20 PM

Ewan wrote:

Yeah, and where is Honda's electric off road bike? Their 2 stroke line? Dedicated cross country, Enduro and moto line. Where's ...more

LOL, you won't hear any arguments from me. I agree with a lot of what you just said.

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11/4/2012 3:54 PM

race250r wrote:

I believe TG is talking about the XR650R, it fits the above description and I believe is still very competitive at the 1000.

Honda doesn't sell the 650 R anymore just the L. And its closer to 7K than 5K. I would rather spend the extra 3K on the KTM any day.

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11/4/2012 4:02 PM
Edited Date/Time: 11/4/2012 4:15 PM

TeamGreen wrote:

Reading this thread is the ultimate realization of ALL Things "Internet".

Classic.

Btw, where's KTM's sub $5K Dual-Sport ...more

Why would they want to win a Baja 1000? Explain me that? Would be a waste of recources to pump money into 1 segment bike and win a desert race the world hardly knows about. Racing is marketing, KTM shoots for the masses not a niche. Wich is a smart thing todo in this time. Their sales went up by a shitload and they do what a company needs to do to keep atrackting stockbuyers and keep their heads above the water: Maximize profit. To do that they need to mark their brand with a 'winner' stamp while as many people can see it as possible so they buy their product. They also bring the most versitile off-road segments you can think off. 2 Stroke, 4 stroke, 1 cil, v-twin. How broad is the Honda segment on freshly designed and modern bikes?

And btw, the XR is an ancient machine, no wonder they can dump it in your hands for cheap...

The days Honda was king are over, drop the nostalgia titnted glasses. The big 4 have to share a big piece of their marketshare with KTM now, like it or not, that's the way things are now. It's time thye pump funds into drasticly redisigning their bikes, and not only offroad. The roadbikes are a joke these days compared to the Euro brands. Big, heavy and old design and even older engines. The innovative supremicy of the Japs are over...

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11/4/2012 4:12 PM

i dig KTM and what they bring to the dirtbike world. they're obviously dedicated to the sport in all of its' facets.

but, thank god for the other oem's. out of that 54 billion, how much comes from mx? somebody threw out (a very loose) 10 million..... how much effort would you expect someone to put in to %.02 of their income? no, they aren't keeping up with KTM, no, they don't put forth the effort we would all love to see, but at least they're doing something. same goes for the rest of the big 4.

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11/4/2012 4:42 PM

TeamGreen wrote:

Reading this thread is the ultimate realization of ALL Things "Internet".

Classic.

Btw, where's KTM's sub $5K Dual-Sport ...more

lappedrider wrote:

Honda has that bike and races it in the 1000?

race250r wrote:

I believe TG is talking about the XR650R, it fits the above description and I believe is still very competitive at the 1000.

Probably the CRF250L that sells for $4499 and is a 6-speed. http://powersports.honda.com/2013/crf250l.aspx

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Take it to the limit, one more time!

11/4/2012 4:44 PM

TeamGreen wrote:

Reading this thread is the ultimate realization of ALL Things "Internet".

Classic.

Btw, where's KTM's sub $5K Dual-Sport ...more

Same warehouse as hondas 2 stroke?

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11/4/2012 5:49 PM
Edited Date/Time: 11/4/2012 5:52 PM

I don't think you Honda Haters get the big picture, so lemme spell it out slowly so's y'all be unnerstanin' this shit.

Honda could buy and sell KTM with just the PROFIT they made last year by selling 50cc bikes alone. Look it up.
KTM, by that respect exists solely by the good will of Honda, who is the first one to respect a worthy adversary and a good fight.
Honda had and could still have a world-beating 2-stroke bike program if they wanted, but they see the writing on the wall long before most, and KTM are just lucky they got sucked into the vacuum that was left by the "Big 4" leaving the segment.
2 strokes are on life support legality wise, and won't be around much longer due to tightening emission standards, and the damage to the environment.
Yeah, the Xr650 is an anchient design that happens to be bulletproof, and won the Baja 1000 like 20 fricken years in a row OVERALL, usually filling out MOST of the top 10. AND THE LEVERS DON'T COST $75 APEICE, OR THE CRANK $850. (and yes, everyone involved with motorsport worldwide knows EXACTLY what the Baja is and how tough it is, don't be rediculous).
You are naive if you think Honda isn't doing exactly what they want, and leaving the rest of the scraps for others to sqibble over.
When KTM wins a Formula 1 Championship, Moto Gp championship, World Superbike championship, builds and sells a jet airplane, or makes an autonomous robot that thinks for itself and recognises people and objects while negotiating the world with no human intervention, I'll be impressed. Now go back to making a couple a dirt bikes, nice job.

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The guys who pay for the series and the guys who the team manager answers to are the SAME guys...
Whats so hard to understand about that???

(Oh yeah, the above comments may be biased towards my own philosophophy)

11/4/2012 6:06 PM

I figured I wasn't the only one. I love my Hondas, and believe in the company. After 20 years and a half dozen bikes, my next machine Will most likely be a ktm. I'm not going to deal with dual mufflers and forks that leak air, ending a riding day after driving 2 hours to the track.

Ktm is an enthusiasts company at this point, and I doubt they are running a 10% profit margin like Honda does on their motorcycle division.

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11/4/2012 6:26 PM
Edited Date/Time: 11/4/2012 6:27 PM

Honda has a special place in my heart. My first "real" mx bike was a 1975 CR125M. I currently race an 06 CR250R (smoker), and love it.

But Honda makes some weird decisions from time to time, that wind up making them fall behind, instead of forging ahead.

It seems they're doing it now with the 2013 450. Dual exhaust didn't sell the last time they tried, but yet, they're at it again. Why?

It's things like this that let a company like KTM catch, and then pass them in regards to off road bikes.

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