Here is my look back at the controversial Cannondale Motocross project

tblazier
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1/1/2021 10:03am Edited Date/Time 5/21/2021 2:35am
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1/1/2021 6:57pm
I watched the whole front end snap off at the frame on one at a 4 stroke national at Albany sx. They Threw it in the box van and quickly shut the door
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The Shop

EngIceDave
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1/1/2021 7:05pm
After they closed, and I believe it was ATK who took over what was left, or at least trying to provide some support, called me up inquiring about their corrosion issue with the magnesium valve covers. Having dissimilar metals can create all kinds of issues with corrosion, and helped them out on some testing and we were what they started recommending.
Not mentioning it for the plug, but more to point out another little unknown flaw, that the magnesium valve cover literally rots away if you're not careful.
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1/2/2021 12:57am
When you look at how far off the Mark they were with these bikes it makes you appreciate how good alta’s were
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1/2/2021 2:26am
Excellent summary, Tony! A business venture failure for Cannondale, but such an interesting engineering adventure. If only they kept the original engine or even better, went with a 500cc 2 stroke as that market was about to become underserved, it could have been a very different story.
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philG
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1/2/2021 3:25am
This is what happens when people who dont make MX bikes, try to make MX bikes.

When you see the air intake, it straight away tells you the job is done, for all the reasons you said. The fact that someone didnt say 'no' at that point , tells you it didnt have the people involved that had the experience to make it all work .

I have a few Vertemati's and you can see a few things like that on those bikes too, but they are a damn sight closer to what they need to be , than the Cannondale , for a lot less money.



Who was the engine designer?
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Bearuno
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1/2/2021 5:10am
philG wrote:
This is what happens when people who dont make MX bikes, try to make MX bikes. When you see the air intake, it straight away tells...
This is what happens when people who dont make MX bikes, try to make MX bikes.

When you see the air intake, it straight away tells you the job is done, for all the reasons you said. The fact that someone didnt say 'no' at that point , tells you it didnt have the people involved that had the experience to make it all work .

I have a few Vertemati's and you can see a few things like that on those bikes too, but they are a damn sight closer to what they need to be , than the Cannondale , for a lot less money.



Who was the engine designer?
"Who was the Engine Designer?"

I don't think tblazier mentioned the name of the Company in the video, but I think it was somewhere in the Mid / South East of the USA . Kentucky, perhaps???

Like you Poms, they have a massive ICE 4 wheel racing industry. Well, even more Massive .

Not sure if you know of the Motus KMV4 engined Motorcycle - now defunct, as far as I know - but that engine was designed / developed / made by KaTech of Michigan, and / or Pratt & Miller of Alabama - buggered if I know exactly who did what, but I read of both companies being associated with it.

It was referred to as a "Baby Block'. A 1650cc push rod, Direct Injection, longitudinal / crankshaft fore and aft engine. A midget / sliced in half American V8, so to speak.

Last I saw of it was being offered as a 'crate engine' for, I think, a type of Polaris UTV.

I know at the time the bike was being developed, many car enthusiasts were really interested in it for smaller race cars. That, to me, looked to be the real potential money maker from that project - the engine. It may still exist through that market?

Cannondale might have had a chance, if they had gone for the Race Quad side of things, from the get go, instead of later in their whole catastrophe. But their hubris, brought down the whole - original - company.

A mate of mine recently brought one of the Cannondales over here to OZ - he's a Cannondale fantatic. I'm not sure if it's got all of the ATK / ADB updates, or, if he's planning to get them. I'm steering well clear of the whole bloody thing, though he's harassing the hell out of me to help him. Not a bloody chance, his last few AFs I've done for him, are the very last of my favours for the blighter!
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sumdood
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1/2/2021 6:16am
A friend of mine bought one of the first ones when they came out. He let me spin some laps on it. 2 things stand out in my memory. It had massive amounts of engine braking, and the motor sounded like someone took a coffee can full of nuts and bolts and threw them in a dryer. 😂
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philG
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1/2/2021 6:46am
philG wrote:
This is what happens when people who dont make MX bikes, try to make MX bikes. When you see the air intake, it straight away tells...
This is what happens when people who dont make MX bikes, try to make MX bikes.

When you see the air intake, it straight away tells you the job is done, for all the reasons you said. The fact that someone didnt say 'no' at that point , tells you it didnt have the people involved that had the experience to make it all work .

I have a few Vertemati's and you can see a few things like that on those bikes too, but they are a damn sight closer to what they need to be , than the Cannondale , for a lot less money.



Who was the engine designer?
Bearuno wrote:
"Who was the Engine Designer?" I don't think [b]tblazier [/b] mentioned the name of the Company in the video, but I think it was somewhere in...
"Who was the Engine Designer?"

I don't think tblazier mentioned the name of the Company in the video, but I think it was somewhere in the Mid / South East of the USA . Kentucky, perhaps???

Like you Poms, they have a massive ICE 4 wheel racing industry. Well, even more Massive .

Not sure if you know of the Motus KMV4 engined Motorcycle - now defunct, as far as I know - but that engine was designed / developed / made by KaTech of Michigan, and / or Pratt & Miller of Alabama - buggered if I know exactly who did what, but I read of both companies being associated with it.

It was referred to as a "Baby Block'. A 1650cc push rod, Direct Injection, longitudinal / crankshaft fore and aft engine. A midget / sliced in half American V8, so to speak.

Last I saw of it was being offered as a 'crate engine' for, I think, a type of Polaris UTV.

I know at the time the bike was being developed, many car enthusiasts were really interested in it for smaller race cars. That, to me, looked to be the real potential money maker from that project - the engine. It may still exist through that market?

Cannondale might have had a chance, if they had gone for the Race Quad side of things, from the get go, instead of later in their whole catastrophe. But their hubris, brought down the whole - original - company.

A mate of mine recently brought one of the Cannondales over here to OZ - he's a Cannondale fantatic. I'm not sure if it's got all of the ATK / ADB updates, or, if he's planning to get them. I'm steering well clear of the whole bloody thing, though he's harassing the hell out of me to help him. Not a bloody chance, his last few AFs I've done for him, are the very last of my favours for the blighter!
I did the written version and it just said it was place that did NASCAR stuff.

I used to work at Ilmor, who did lots of projects like that for customers, and they are owned by Penske, we did work for the Dodge Nascar program, that resulted in a 1-2 in the Daytona 500 back in the day .

They also did the X3 MotoGP project which was already close to dead when i got there, but the mistakes made on that were similar, it was a joint project with Suter ,the Swiiss company that did Chassis stuff,

They never expected the motor to be ready, by all accounts , but it was and the chassis as a result was rushed, the bike was the first of the 800cc era, and was awful, from lightswitch throttle , to a chassis that defied tuning, the riders hated it, it dindt stop and didnt turn in, and when you got it in to the turn it didnt drive how you wanted.

It had a fly by wire throttle that needed taming, so the rider could pick it up gentler, and make it drivable, , and when you sat on it, the airbox was so big, to get the straight inlet in that the rider couldnt sit where he needed to , as the back of the tank was too high and square.

Then when the money got tight and the bike wasnt great , BMW who were rumoured to be coming in for it , went WSB, Penske went nuts when he found out how much it cost... engineers were let go leaving a real small team, who actually listened to the riders, and they bonded carbon on to the chassis and swingarm to stiffen it , and suddenly it worked, they found 4 secs a lap over a 2 day test , but it was too late .

When they finally did a tortion test on the chassis in the workshop it was rubbish, due to being a ' beefed up' 250 chassis , using the same gauge material, which was way too thin...

Millions of $$ pissed up the wall.
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DC
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1/2/2021 8:21am
Great piece TBlazier. In my opinion, if Cannondale, or even Harley-Davidson or Alta, just started at the minicycle entry level (like Cobra did) and evolved as a brand and a platform, all would have had a much better chance. But going up against the Big Four from Japan (and now the Big 2.5 from Austria) at the highest level--is a really expensive and steep task. You don't start building a brick wall from the top, right? Had Cannondale taken their treasure and bought Cobra from Bud Maimone and started there, I truly believe they would have had an excellent chance to make it as a motorcycle brand (and I even told Joe Montgomery that one day up at the Bedford, PA plant, after I snapped one of the prototypes in half while riding with Scott McGill at the nearby test track, because it was obvious at that point they were in for a very difficult and public R&D process).

That's why I believe KTM's move into the electric bike market at the junior minicycle level is very wise, because those kids are likely to grow up more likely to try electric bicycles, electric cars, and even electric motorcycles as those products evolve...

DC
Racer X
tblazier
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1/2/2021 1:35pm
DC wrote:
Great piece TBlazier. In my opinion, if Cannondale, or even Harley-Davidson or Alta, just started at the minicycle entry level (like Cobra did) and evolved as...
Great piece TBlazier. In my opinion, if Cannondale, or even Harley-Davidson or Alta, just started at the minicycle entry level (like Cobra did) and evolved as a brand and a platform, all would have had a much better chance. But going up against the Big Four from Japan (and now the Big 2.5 from Austria) at the highest level--is a really expensive and steep task. You don't start building a brick wall from the top, right? Had Cannondale taken their treasure and bought Cobra from Bud Maimone and started there, I truly believe they would have had an excellent chance to make it as a motorcycle brand (and I even told Joe Montgomery that one day up at the Bedford, PA plant, after I snapped one of the prototypes in half while riding with Scott McGill at the nearby test track, because it was obvious at that point they were in for a very difficult and public R&D process).

That's why I believe KTM's move into the electric bike market at the junior minicycle level is very wise, because those kids are likely to grow up more likely to try electric bicycles, electric cars, and even electric motorcycles as those products evolve...

DC
Racer X
Thanks, DC, and really great points. In hindsight, they definitely bit off more than they could chew.
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prvtr.co
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1/2/2021 5:11pm
I remember years ago John Natalie would rip around the local track (he lives up the street from my dad) on the Cannondale bike and quad and completely destroy the locals. I was too young to remember exactly what his relationship was with cannondale but I believe he was sponsored by them when they launched their models. There was a local that no one could even touch in the 250 class and he would put laps on him. That bike and quad would also break down during a race, he'd figure out the problems and somehow still finish the race and win by a mile. That was the only time I've ever seen those cannondales and I'll never forget it.
Spooner
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1/2/2021 8:53pm
I worked at a cannondale bicycle dealer when all this was going down so it was interesting to see it all happen. I remember asking my rep about the motorcycles and he just rolled his eyes at the whole thing haha! I had a chance to ride a supermoto that a customer of mine had in like 2006..I went down the street and back and it tossed the rod... What a mess they ended up as but it was so exciting seeing them develop.

Tblazier-I still have my 1995 Super V!
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XC706
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1/3/2021 12:17pm
Another good one Tony, nice job.
Reliability issues for Cannondale where nothing new and certainly did not start with the Dirtbike. I have been involved in the Mountain bike industry since 1985 and Cannondale has long been referred to as Crackindale. They often seemed to push the boundaries of light weight frames that did not always work out.
Dirt Rider naming it bike of the year is still a knee slapper, mind you that was coming from Ken Faught probably the worst DB magazine editor of all time. His bike tests and shootouts were just giant Manufacturers Advertisements - so brutal. When Dirt Rider had their bike shoots on one of the TV channels, one of the accomplished test riders starting writing out a few negative points on one of the bikes - Faught flat out tells him on live TV that he can not say that about a bike. I never purchased another Dirt Rider magazine after that TV episode.
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ldnbmx
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Crackanfail
tblazier
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1/3/2021 4:44pm
Spooner wrote:
I worked at a cannondale bicycle dealer when all this was going down so it was interesting to see it all happen. I remember asking my...
I worked at a cannondale bicycle dealer when all this was going down so it was interesting to see it all happen. I remember asking my rep about the motorcycles and he just rolled his eyes at the whole thing haha! I had a chance to ride a supermoto that a customer of mine had in like 2006..I went down the street and back and it tossed the rod... What a mess they ended up as but it was so exciting seeing them develop.

Tblazier-I still have my 1995 Super V!
I sold mine about 10 years ago for like $100. I wish I had kept it!
Spooner
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1/3/2021 7:18pm
tblazier wrote:
I sold mine about 10 years ago for like $100. I wish I had kept it!
You should have, the prices are going up!
Fourth_Floor
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1/3/2021 9:03pm
DC wrote:
Great piece TBlazier. In my opinion, if Cannondale, or even Harley-Davidson or Alta, just started at the minicycle entry level (like Cobra did) and evolved as...
Great piece TBlazier. In my opinion, if Cannondale, or even Harley-Davidson or Alta, just started at the minicycle entry level (like Cobra did) and evolved as a brand and a platform, all would have had a much better chance. But going up against the Big Four from Japan (and now the Big 2.5 from Austria) at the highest level--is a really expensive and steep task. You don't start building a brick wall from the top, right? Had Cannondale taken their treasure and bought Cobra from Bud Maimone and started there, I truly believe they would have had an excellent chance to make it as a motorcycle brand (and I even told Joe Montgomery that one day up at the Bedford, PA plant, after I snapped one of the prototypes in half while riding with Scott McGill at the nearby test track, because it was obvious at that point they were in for a very difficult and public R&D process).

That's why I believe KTM's move into the electric bike market at the junior minicycle level is very wise, because those kids are likely to grow up more likely to try electric bicycles, electric cars, and even electric motorcycles as those products evolve...

DC
Racer X
I get your point but it's not fair to lump Alta into any conversation involving Cannondale haha. The Alta guys showed the world what can be done. The Cannondale guys showed the world what not to do.
scott_nz
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1/3/2021 9:41pm
I get your point but it's not fair to lump Alta into any conversation involving Cannondale haha. The Alta guys showed the world what can be...
I get your point but it's not fair to lump Alta into any conversation involving Cannondale haha. The Alta guys showed the world what can be done. The Cannondale guys showed the world what not to do.
both of them ran out of money before it became commercially viable tho,
1
DC
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1/4/2021 7:19am Edited Date/Time 1/4/2021 7:20am
DC wrote:
Great piece TBlazier. In my opinion, if Cannondale, or even Harley-Davidson or Alta, just started at the minicycle entry level (like Cobra did) and evolved as...
Great piece TBlazier. In my opinion, if Cannondale, or even Harley-Davidson or Alta, just started at the minicycle entry level (like Cobra did) and evolved as a brand and a platform, all would have had a much better chance. But going up against the Big Four from Japan (and now the Big 2.5 from Austria) at the highest level--is a really expensive and steep task. You don't start building a brick wall from the top, right? Had Cannondale taken their treasure and bought Cobra from Bud Maimone and started there, I truly believe they would have had an excellent chance to make it as a motorcycle brand (and I even told Joe Montgomery that one day up at the Bedford, PA plant, after I snapped one of the prototypes in half while riding with Scott McGill at the nearby test track, because it was obvious at that point they were in for a very difficult and public R&D process).

That's why I believe KTM's move into the electric bike market at the junior minicycle level is very wise, because those kids are likely to grow up more likely to try electric bicycles, electric cars, and even electric motorcycles as those products evolve...

DC
Racer X
I get your point but it's not fair to lump Alta into any conversation involving Cannondale haha. The Alta guys showed the world what can be...
I get your point but it's not fair to lump Alta into any conversation involving Cannondale haha. The Alta guys showed the world what can be done. The Cannondale guys showed the world what not to do.
Alta did make an amazing bike--I bought two of them. Much better and more dependable than the Cannondale was, compared to the other bikes of their relative times. My point is that rather than start in basically the top-of-the-line market, start at the entry-level and learn as you build a much cheaper model and evolve up, not down... I also believe that had Alta started with junior mini cycles (as KTM has in regards to e-Bike production) they would have had a much better chance.

DC
Racer X
2
Johnny Depp
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1/4/2021 7:33am
DC wrote:
Great piece TBlazier. In my opinion, if Cannondale, or even Harley-Davidson or Alta, just started at the minicycle entry level (like Cobra did) and evolved as...
Great piece TBlazier. In my opinion, if Cannondale, or even Harley-Davidson or Alta, just started at the minicycle entry level (like Cobra did) and evolved as a brand and a platform, all would have had a much better chance. But going up against the Big Four from Japan (and now the Big 2.5 from Austria) at the highest level--is a really expensive and steep task. You don't start building a brick wall from the top, right? Had Cannondale taken their treasure and bought Cobra from Bud Maimone and started there, I truly believe they would have had an excellent chance to make it as a motorcycle brand (and I even told Joe Montgomery that one day up at the Bedford, PA plant, after I snapped one of the prototypes in half while riding with Scott McGill at the nearby test track, because it was obvious at that point they were in for a very difficult and public R&D process).

That's why I believe KTM's move into the electric bike market at the junior minicycle level is very wise, because those kids are likely to grow up more likely to try electric bicycles, electric cars, and even electric motorcycles as those products evolve...

DC
Racer X
I get your point but it's not fair to lump Alta into any conversation involving Cannondale haha. The Alta guys showed the world what can be...
I get your point but it's not fair to lump Alta into any conversation involving Cannondale haha. The Alta guys showed the world what can be done. The Cannondale guys showed the world what not to do.
DC wrote:
Alta did make an amazing bike--I bought two of them. Much better and more dependable than the Cannondale was, compared to the other bikes of their...
Alta did make an amazing bike--I bought two of them. Much better and more dependable than the Cannondale was, compared to the other bikes of their relative times. My point is that rather than start in basically the top-of-the-line market, start at the entry-level and learn as you build a much cheaper model and evolve up, not down... I also believe that had Alta started with junior mini cycles (as KTM has in regards to e-Bike production) they would have had a much better chance.

DC
Racer X
Will Alta's ever be allowed at LL or the Nationals? It seems Open class should be just that, Open.
Can we expect any rule changes to Homologation this year?
1/4/2021 7:36am Edited Date/Time 1/4/2021 7:39am
Awesome story. Nice work.

I'll never forget going out to the desert east of San Diego. Plaster City to be specific. Some dude unloaded his Cannondale, got geared up, started it, rode about 100 yards, came to a stop and pushed his Cannondale back to his truck.

Someone raced a Cannondale at DITD around 2010/2011 timeframe. I remember waiting in the staging area and you could see oil seeping out of the bottom end, like a Harley.
1/4/2021 7:45am
I get your point but it's not fair to lump Alta into any conversation involving Cannondale haha. The Alta guys showed the world what can be...
I get your point but it's not fair to lump Alta into any conversation involving Cannondale haha. The Alta guys showed the world what can be done. The Cannondale guys showed the world what not to do.
scott_nz wrote:
both of them ran out of money before it became commercially viable tho,
"Before it became commercially viable" is completely laughable with regard to the Cannondale bike.
Jmicmoto13
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1/4/2021 7:45am
This was awesome and very insightful. Subscribed.
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ATKpilot99
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1/4/2021 7:54am
Buell had and XC model they were I guess using in the development of their mx project. That's the only one I've seen up close and man what a tank of a bike . I think it weighed 275 lbs. without fuel.
DC
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1/4/2021 10:13am Edited Date/Time 1/4/2021 10:15am
I get your point but it's not fair to lump Alta into any conversation involving Cannondale haha. The Alta guys showed the world what can be...
I get your point but it's not fair to lump Alta into any conversation involving Cannondale haha. The Alta guys showed the world what can be done. The Cannondale guys showed the world what not to do.
DC wrote:
Alta did make an amazing bike--I bought two of them. Much better and more dependable than the Cannondale was, compared to the other bikes of their...
Alta did make an amazing bike--I bought two of them. Much better and more dependable than the Cannondale was, compared to the other bikes of their relative times. My point is that rather than start in basically the top-of-the-line market, start at the entry-level and learn as you build a much cheaper model and evolve up, not down... I also believe that had Alta started with junior mini cycles (as KTM has in regards to e-Bike production) they would have had a much better chance.

DC
Racer X
Will Alta's ever be allowed at LL or the Nationals? It seems Open class should be just that, Open. Can we expect any rule changes to...
Will Alta's ever be allowed at LL or the Nationals? It seems Open class should be just that, Open.
Can we expect any rule changes to Homologation this year?
That's a good question, I am not sure how the AMA would go about homologating Alta now, since they aren't around to file for homologation, nor do I believe they ever made enough actual bikes. Also, it's "Open CCs" and not really open-to-any-and-everything, which was part of the conundrum in the first place and why I ended up buying two, in order to figure out where they might fit in. In my opinion, it was right between a 250 and a 450, but they would have been hard to ride on a track that formed 250 and 450 lines and ruts like Loretta's days. On a hard-pack track like the old Carlsbad, they would have been amazing.

Nowadays, the electric junior minicycles KTM/Husqvarnas have their own class, they don't compete against other 50cc at Loretta's.

DC
1
-MAVERICK-
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1/4/2021 10:17am
"Nowadays, the electric junior minicycles KTM/Husqvarnas have their own class, they don't compete against other 50cc at Loretta's."

And that's how it should be. You don't see Formula E cars in Formula 1. Let them have their own class/series.
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EngIceDave
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1/4/2021 10:46am
Maybe when an electric can do two 40's in mud with a rider going WFO?
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