Harley allegedly pulling out of Alta..?

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8/30/2018 5:32 AM

Article here

It’s a speculative article, so take that with a grain of salt.
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8/30/2018 6:48 AM

Hmm... let me put my tin foil hat on real quick.

Harley gets involved with alta.

Learns their craft of electric motorcycles

Develops their own line of electric motorcycles to come out in a few years

Pulls out of alta to maximize profit margin

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8/30/2018 6:50 AM

kb228 wrote:

Hmm... let me put my tin foil hat on real quick.

Harley gets involved with alta.

Learns their craft of electric motorcycles

Develops their own line of electric motorcycles to come out in a few years

Pulls out of alta to maximize profit margin

Sounds like a major IP violation to me. The assumed nondisclosure agreements would prevent any of this occurring.

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8/30/2018 6:53 AM

Always was a pretty big fan of Harley , but between this and them wanting to move all their manufacturing oversea's .....starting to become less of a fan. I'm not sure how much involvement Harley has with Alta , so who know's.....maybe Alta would be better off in the long run?

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8/30/2018 6:57 AM

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8/30/2018 7:06 AM

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8/30/2018 7:08 AM

jeffro503 wrote:

Always was a pretty big fan of Harley , but between this and them wanting to move all their manufacturing oversea's .....starting to become less of a fan. I'm not sure how much involvement Harley has with Alta , so who know's.....maybe Alta would be better off in the long run?

Harley is not moving ALL their manufacturing overseas

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8/30/2018 7:08 AM

MotoTribology wrote:

Sounds like a major IP violation to me. The assumed nondisclosure agreements would prevent any of this occurring.

So you're saying they were already using protection?

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8/30/2018 7:11 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/30/2018 7:11 AM

Small startup company with a passion for building an electric dirt bike partners with a huge company known for building low performance, overweight street bikes from low quality AND HEAVY raw materials....yeah um no, I can't thank them.shocked

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8/30/2018 7:16 AM

Guys, Alta has the best battery-motorcycle technology right now and this was just a cheap venture for HD to get a peek at the potential applications. It would take HD years and years + Millions in R&D just to get where Alta is today.

HD paid to partner with Alta, they got a good look at the current and future technology, developed a few concept bikes, and then likely pulled out when they realized technology and/or market demand isn't where it needs to be yet.

I don't see the application for an electric HD bike right now. HD owners are much different than Alta offroad owners. a few hours on a charge isn't good enough for most HD owners who want a bike that they can take for medium to long road trips. Their just isn't enough battery capacity yet and I think HD saw that quickly.

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8/30/2018 7:29 AM

jeffro503 wrote:

Always was a pretty big fan of Harley , but between this and them wanting to move all their manufacturing oversea's .....starting to become less of a fan. I'm not sure how much involvement Harley has with Alta , so who know's.....maybe Alta would be better off in the long run?

Fake news from Trump, Harley wasn't/isn't moving ALL manufacturing overseas. Just for the bikes to be sold overseas.

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8/30/2018 7:32 AM

Jeff_Crutcher wrote: Article here

It’s a speculative article, so take that with a grain of salt.

Your heart must be broken.

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8/30/2018 7:38 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/30/2018 7:45 AM

mxtech1 wrote:

Guys, Alta has the best battery-motorcycle technology right now and this was just a cheap venture for HD to get a peek at the potential applications. It would take HD years and years + Millions in R&D just to get where Alta is today.

HD paid to partner with Alta, they got a good look at the current and future technology, developed a few concept bikes, and then likely pulled out when they realized technology and/or market demand isn't where it needs to be yet.

I don't see the application for an electric HD bike right now. HD owners are much different than Alta offroad owners. a few hours on a charge isn't good enough for most HD owners who want a bike that they can take for medium to long road trips. Their just isn't enough battery capacity yet and I think HD saw that quickly.

My main argument against this theory would be that..

1) I'm certain that HD did massive amounts of due diligence on eBikes, batteries and the extent of the current state of the technology available before entering this partnership.

2) I highly doubt Harley would pull out of a partnership like this because of "right now" market conditions. This strategic partnership is all about the future, not the present. I don't think there could be a larger change to a motorcycle than how it is powered (internal combustion vs electric). If Harley is ever going to offer a eBike, they need to entrench themselves in the R&D process immediately. These things take years to come to fruition..

Also, the collective HD owner demographic is changing, as traditional "core" Harley fans are aging out; thus the brand has now embraced a "we build riders" mentality instead of a "we build bikes" mentality

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/03/harley-davidson-tries-to-regain-its-coolness-factor.html

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8/30/2018 7:41 AM

kb228 wrote:

Hmm... let me put my tin foil hat on real quick.

Harley gets involved with alta.

Learns their craft of electric motorcycles

Develops their own line of electric motorcycles to come out in a few years

Pulls out of alta to maximize profit margin


Well, that is some of what I got also.

But, it was kinda insightful on what orange and black might be up to. That they mentioned pedal type mopeds
as becoming a large mode of transportation here in the US, forget it. They're wrong on that.

As far as Alta, one can see Harley might have had its glimpse of what and how they do things, and figured
they're not all that, we can do just as well by ourselves. It's not like HD didn't have anything going on electric,
I'm sure they have a treasure trove of data on the juicer bike scene. Hopefully, they did take away a few pointers on how to get stuff to market a bit quicker, maybe market the stuff better. In that regard, Alta imo has done a great job.

I dunno. The ADV thing, that might be good for them. But, seems to me, a lot of those guys are on in their years also.
How much of a future is there? Unless the young guns start thinking differently as they age, as many do, that could be a waste of time also. Look at this place. Mention Adventure Bikes here, and the majority of the Vitards crucify them.

The fact they are looking at ways to change things up, to not only stay current, but to lead a way into the future, hell, it's easy to think that's a good thing.

But, when one reads that article, it's easy to think that maybe they are getting a bit scatter brained. I mean, they are talking about going in a lot of different directions. Which is what they did back in the AMF days. When they almost went under.

Hopefully, they haven't missed the success, and how it was done, with the likes of Alta, and let's say Indian.
And use those qualities in their business.

Maybe, just maybe, they can keep a bit of focus on what has made them a profitable company for so many years.
Rebels, cokeacola cowboys, outlaw wanna bees and bonifide long haul cruiser guys, will always exist.

Eh, as long as they don't start talking about golf carts, I have a feeling, they will be just fine.
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8/30/2018 7:48 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/30/2018 7:50 AM

jeffro503 wrote:

Always was a pretty big fan of Harley , but between this and them wanting to move all their manufacturing oversea's .....starting to become less of a fan. I'm not sure how much involvement Harley has with Alta , so who know's.....maybe Alta would be better off in the long run?

yak651 wrote:

Fake news from Trump, Harley wasn't/isn't moving ALL manufacturing overseas. Just for the bikes to be sold overseas.

Not fake news totally Harley closed up a huge manufacturing plant in Kansas City costing tons of American jobs. They did this the same time as they were opening a factory in Thailand. Very real news of a company that has profited solely on being an American brand. I say Solely bc they are not close to Cutting edge technology. Most Harley consumers are buying the American "hardcore" image to be able to play dress up on the weekends.

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Midlife-moto.com

8/30/2018 8:05 AM

msp138 wrote:

Not fake news totally Harley closed up a huge manufacturing plant in Kansas City costing tons of American jobs. They did this the same time as they were opening a factory in Thailand. Very real news of a company that has profited solely on being an American brand. I say Solely bc they are not close to Cutting edge technology. Most Harley consumers are buying the American "hardcore" image to be able to play dress up on the weekends.

Harley closed a plant in Kansas City that was building the dyna family of motorcycles which no longer exist. In doing this, they hired an estimated 450 employees in York, PA. Production shifted to York to build all of their models.

They are opening a production facility in Europe to sell bikes in Europe.
They are opening a production facility in Thailand to sell bikes in Asia.

The motorcycles sold in the US are and will be built in the US. Although the timelines seen on the news are accurate, the connection between exclusive events is incorrect.

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8/30/2018 8:06 AM

jeffro503 wrote:

Always was a pretty big fan of Harley , but between this and them wanting to move all their manufacturing oversea's .....starting to become less of a fan. I'm not sure how much involvement Harley has with Alta , so who know's.....maybe Alta would be better off in the long run?

yak651 wrote:

Fake news from Trump, Harley wasn't/isn't moving ALL manufacturing overseas. Just for the bikes to be sold overseas.

msp138 wrote:

Not fake news totally Harley closed up a huge manufacturing plant in Kansas City costing tons of American jobs. They did this the same time as they were opening a factory in Thailand. Very real news of a company that has profited solely on being an American brand. I say Solely bc they are not close to Cutting edge technology. Most Harley consumers are buying the American "hardcore" image to be able to play dress up on the weekends.

I always get a kick out of hardcore harley guys bragging about an american bike when its not even amercian

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8/30/2018 8:11 AM

jeffro503 wrote:

Always was a pretty big fan of Harley , but between this and them wanting to move all their manufacturing oversea's .....starting to become less of a fan. I'm not sure how much involvement Harley has with Alta , so who know's.....maybe Alta would be better off in the long run?

yak651 wrote:

Fake news from Trump, Harley wasn't/isn't moving ALL manufacturing overseas. Just for the bikes to be sold overseas.

msp138 wrote:

Not fake news totally Harley closed up a huge manufacturing plant in Kansas City costing tons of American jobs. They did this the same time as they were opening a factory in Thailand. Very real news of a company that has profited solely on being an American brand. I say Solely bc they are not close to Cutting edge technology. Most Harley consumers are buying the American "hardcore" image to be able to play dress up on the weekends.


True, Kansas City closed. And they spent a ton on increasing and improving York Pa.
Thing is, most, if not all global companies do it.

Heck, I'm in HVAC. Carrier just moved a big part of their show to Mexico. Carrier, the American company that invented air-conditioning as we know it, here since the 1900s, poof, gone.
Would be lovely to be able to keep all those jobs here. But, when labor here in the US is like 65hr, vs 5hr there, what would anyone do? Especially when the thing you make is gonna be shipped half way around the world?

Let's get real. Who here wears any gear, or rides any bike, in their weekend warrior pursuits, that's made in America?
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8/30/2018 8:14 AM

jeffro503 wrote:

Always was a pretty big fan of Harley , but between this and them wanting to move all their manufacturing oversea's .....starting to become less of a fan. I'm not sure how much involvement Harley has with Alta , so who know's.....maybe Alta would be better off in the long run?

yak651 wrote:

Fake news from Trump, Harley wasn't/isn't moving ALL manufacturing overseas. Just for the bikes to be sold overseas.

msp138 wrote:

Not fake news totally Harley closed up a huge manufacturing plant in Kansas City costing tons of American jobs. They did this the same time as they were opening a factory in Thailand. Very real news of a company that has profited solely on being an American brand. I say Solely bc they are not close to Cutting edge technology. Most Harley consumers are buying the American "hardcore" image to be able to play dress up on the weekends.

Harley claimed they were moving some manufacturing out of the US due to tariffs (this was a lie)... Harley employees and Harley suppliers will tell you the decision to move some of their manufacturing out of the US was made well before any talk of tariffs. Harley suppliers were told months earlier...Point is Trump had nothing to do with any of this..

Regarding Harley pulling out of Alta- this is great news. I suspect Alta and Harley did not mesh well together. One company is a fast moving upstart with advanced technology and the other is a 100+ yr old slow, management heavy dinosaur.

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8/30/2018 8:16 AM

yak651 wrote:

Fake news from Trump, Harley wasn't/isn't moving ALL manufacturing overseas. Just for the bikes to be sold overseas.

msp138 wrote:

Not fake news totally Harley closed up a huge manufacturing plant in Kansas City costing tons of American jobs. They did this the same time as they were opening a factory in Thailand. Very real news of a company that has profited solely on being an American brand. I say Solely bc they are not close to Cutting edge technology. Most Harley consumers are buying the American "hardcore" image to be able to play dress up on the weekends.

vosser130 wrote:

Harley closed a plant in Kansas City that was building the dyna family of motorcycles which no longer exist. In doing this, they hired an estimated 450 employees in York, PA. Production shifted to York to build all of their models.

They are opening a production facility in Europe to sell bikes in Europe.
They are opening a production facility in Thailand to sell bikes in Asia.

The motorcycles sold in the US are and will be built in the US. Although the timelines seen on the news are accurate, the connection between exclusive events is incorrect.

Ok I guess I can rephrase. They lost a ton of Kansas City American jobs. I totally understand that it wasn't related to each other. One thing remains is that a company that sells "American Pride born free attitude" is setting up manufacturing plants in other countries. I'm sure it make financial sense for them to do so. I have a problem with the hypocrisy of it. You can manufacture products in the US and ship them all around the world to be sold. Not trying to make this a Trump thing either to make that clear FYI

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Midlife-moto.com

8/30/2018 8:18 AM

yak651 wrote:

Fake news from Trump, Harley wasn't/isn't moving ALL manufacturing overseas. Just for the bikes to be sold overseas.

msp138 wrote:

Not fake news totally Harley closed up a huge manufacturing plant in Kansas City costing tons of American jobs. They did this the same time as they were opening a factory in Thailand. Very real news of a company that has profited solely on being an American brand. I say Solely bc they are not close to Cutting edge technology. Most Harley consumers are buying the American "hardcore" image to be able to play dress up on the weekends.

kb228 wrote:

I always get a kick out of hardcore harley guys bragging about an american bike when its not even amercian


I've had lengthy debates, on other sites, on what makes an American bike.
Or a German bike.
Or a Japanese bike.
Or an Austrian bike.

They all, for years now, use stuff from different vendors.
Henry Ford did not make the carburetor for his model t.

What makes a bikes nationality, in this day and age?
Where they are designed, and where the corporate profits end up, is the closest thing to determining that.
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8/30/2018 8:19 AM

Jeff_Crutcher wrote: Article here

It’s a speculative article, so take that with a grain of salt.

Gebken40 wrote:

Your heart must be broken.

Mine is.

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8/30/2018 8:24 AM

They are a business. They make decisions for the benefit of their business.

Most customers in Europe do not care if the products they buy are "Made in the USA" and likely prefer more locally made products. So why make their products in the USA at their detriment for that market?

Most customers in Asia do not care if the products they buy are "Made in the USA" and likely prefer more locally made products. So why make their products in the USA at their detriment for that market?

The only customers who care about the products they are buying being "Made in the USA" are in the USA, and the products those customers are buying are "Made in the USA", so what's the problem here?

I thought people liked capitalism.

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I can do anything, I'm an expert.
MotoTribology.com - Motorcycle Lubrication Education

8/30/2018 9:15 AM

MotoTribology wrote:

They are a business. They make decisions for the benefit of their business.

Most customers in Europe do not care if the products they buy are "Made in the USA" and likely prefer more locally made products. So why make their products in the USA at their detriment for that market?

Most customers in Asia do not care if the products they buy are "Made in the USA" and likely prefer more locally made products. So why make their products in the USA at their detriment for that market?

The only customers who care about the products they are buying being "Made in the USA" are in the USA, and the products those customers are buying are "Made in the USA", so what's the problem here?

I thought people liked capitalism.

You're not completely correct here...I am in the oil/gas/power gen market and we have customers from all over the world (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc) who will only buy our product because it is "Made in the USA". As part of the contract they require a certain percentage of the parts on our product be from USA suppliers.

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8/30/2018 10:02 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/30/2018 10:05 AM

Brad460 wrote:

You're not completely correct here...I am in the oil/gas/power gen market and we have customers from all over the world (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc) who will only buy our product because it is "Made in the USA". As part of the contract they require a certain percentage of the parts on our product be from USA suppliers.

I specifically said most since I know "Made in the USA" does carry some weight internationally, but I would very much doubt that to be anything but completely correct in this case.

It is a marketing tool above all else and in my experience, where it is made is a concern for a substantially small number of customers. There is a "prestige" or a perceived quality aspect to "Made in the USA" in some areas of the world, not doubt. But to convince me that a majority of customers worldwide are concerned with it is highly doubtful.

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I can do anything, I'm an expert.
MotoTribology.com - Motorcycle Lubrication Education

8/30/2018 10:24 AM

MotoTribology wrote:

They are a business. They make decisions for the benefit of their business.

Most customers in Europe do not care if the products they buy are "Made in the USA" and likely prefer more locally made products. So why make their products in the USA at their detriment for that market?

Most customers in Asia do not care if the products they buy are "Made in the USA" and likely prefer more locally made products. So why make their products in the USA at their detriment for that market?

The only customers who care about the products they are buying being "Made in the USA" are in the USA, and the products those customers are buying are "Made in the USA", so what's the problem here?

I thought people liked capitalism.

Brad460 wrote:

You're not completely correct here...I am in the oil/gas/power gen market and we have customers from all over the world (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc) who will only buy our product because it is "Made in the USA". As part of the contract they require a certain percentage of the parts on our product be from USA suppliers.

MotoTribology wrote:

I specifically said most since I know "Made in the USA" does carry some weight internationally, but I would very much doubt that to be anything but completely correct in this case.

It is a marketing tool above all else and in my experience, where it is made is a concern for a substantially small number of customers. There is a "prestige" or a perceived quality aspect to "Made in the USA" in some areas of the world, not doubt. But to convince me that a majority of customers worldwide are concerned with it is highly doubtful.


I think the same thing about oil.

Oil is oil, it's all the same.
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8/30/2018 10:37 AM

motogrady wrote:
I think the same thing about oil.

Oil is oil, it's all the same.

And you are completely correct.

The "Made in the USA" is a concern for a small number of oil customers. They certainly exist and it does matter to some, but a large majority will not make their purchasing decision based on it.

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I can do anything, I'm an expert.
MotoTribology.com - Motorcycle Lubrication Education

8/30/2018 11:12 AM

EBR, Buell, MV. All things they and their dealers don’t do well.

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8/30/2018 12:47 PM

motogrady wrote:
True, Kansas City closed. And they spent a ton on increasing and improving York Pa.
Thing is, most, if not all global companies do it.

Heck, I'm in HVAC. Carrier just moved a big part of their show to Mexico. Carrier, the American company that invented air-conditioning as we know it, here since the 1900s, poof, gone.
Would be lovely to be able to keep all those jobs here. But, when labor here in the US is like 65hr, vs 5hr there, what would anyone do? Especially when the thing you make is gonna be shipped half way around the world?

Let's get real. Who here wears any gear, or rides any bike, in their weekend warrior pursuits, that's made in America?

Wouldn't the Alta riders on this site be able to raise their hands in response to your last sentence? Or the Harley riders for that point?

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8/30/2018 12:47 PM

a few hours on a charge isn't good enough for most HD owners who want a bike that they can take for medium to long road trips. Their just isn't enough battery capacity yet and I think HD saw that quickly.

There is more than enough capacity for the folks who trailer to Sturgis and/or Daytona, and only ride on main street...
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