HRC Honda releases statement on Cole Seely's Shock Failure at MXoN

GuyB
Profile picture for user GuyB
Posts
35699
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA US
Fantasy
988th
GuyB 10/4/2017 5:42pm
10/4/2017 5:42pm Edited Date/Time 10/4/2017 5:43pm
Xeno wrote:
How in the world did the retainer get arround the bump stop? Twice? ML512- go find some sticky mud and try to re-create this. You have...
How in the world did the retainer get arround the bump stop? Twice?
ML512- go find some sticky mud and try to re-create this. You have the time, right?
Dirty Points wrote:
It split in half.
Seeing the cup design (with the bumper inside) and hearing of the sticky mud, I'm going to guess that when the shock body compressed into the cup, it worked with the mud to act like hydraulic compression to wedge it partway open. Then spring pressure on the compromised part finished it off.
KurtJ99
Profile picture for user KurtJ99
Posts
1489
Joined
2/6/2017
Location
CA US
Fantasy
671st
KurtJ99 10/4/2017 6:02pm
10/4/2017 6:02pm
Acidreamer wrote:
Has anyone heard of a team blame the dirt for their bike failing? Has to be a first right?
JM485 wrote:
They aren't blaming dirt, they simply stated that an abnormal set of occurrences presented themselves and caused a failure. It's real easy to sit there and...
They aren't blaming dirt, they simply stated that an abnormal set of occurrences presented themselves and caused a failure. It's real easy to sit there and be an armchair engineer with inpecible hindsight, but the bottom line is things happen and will continue to happen until the end of time, not every single situation can be thought of and tested for in a situation like this.

As for them not doing anything but change the shock between motos, ya, I think that was definitely a failure on someone's part to think clearly in the heat of the moment.
I would imagine they washed the bike before taking it apart, perhaps took a few pictures before washing to understand the failure. It would be difficult to determine root cause and corrective action during the short time they have between moto's at the Des. I think perhaps it would have been better to put a showa on instead. There is also risk in Showa if Cole wasn't used to it, but certainly just re-installing the same thing feels like a "cross your fingers and hope" plan instead of good risk management.
Underground 10/4/2017 6:10pm
10/4/2017 6:10pm
Xeno wrote:
How in the world did the retainer get arround the bump stop? Twice? ML512- go find some sticky mud and try to re-create this. You have...
How in the world did the retainer get arround the bump stop? Twice?
ML512- go find some sticky mud and try to re-create this. You have the time, right?
Dirty Points wrote:
It split in half.
GuyB wrote:
Seeing the cup design (with the bumper inside) and hearing of the sticky mud, I'm going to guess that when the shock body compressed into the...
Seeing the cup design (with the bumper inside) and hearing of the sticky mud, I'm going to guess that when the shock body compressed into the cup, it worked with the mud to act like hydraulic compression to wedge it partway open. Then spring pressure on the compromised part finished it off.
What? Wait! No, I hadn't heard LaughingSilly

The Shop

See All »
Hut
Profile picture for user Hut
Posts
10286
Joined
4/27/2010
Location
WA US
Hut 10/4/2017 7:38pm
10/4/2017 7:38pm
Rooster wrote:
Shame that a little bit of duct tape could have sealed up that gap and kept the mud out. I guess there's no place for duct...
Shame that a little bit of duct tape could have sealed up that gap and kept the mud out.

I guess there's no place for duct tape on factory bikes.
arvid wrote:
you are not the sharpest knife in the drawer
Sharper than HRC apparently
Derek Harris 10/4/2017 7:46pm
10/4/2017 7:46pm
twotwosix wrote:
Isn't this same style collar used on many different works KYB shocks on various brands?
It's the same as a production kyb in concept.

I have experienced this failure 2 times over the last 10 years, both with the same customer, incredibly they were 2 years apart on different bikes.

It's mind boggling that it can happen... but as they say in racing... anything that can happen will happen
KurtJ99
Profile picture for user KurtJ99
Posts
1489
Joined
2/6/2017
Location
CA US
Fantasy
671st
KurtJ99 10/4/2017 9:13pm
10/4/2017 9:13pm
newmann wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/users/64/photos/16708/s780_84896050_1234050950.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.ducati.ms/forums/attachments/superbikes/67935d1273539798-ohlins-rear-shock-cover-p5100120.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.partycity.com/images/products/en_us/gtwy/halloween-2017/costume-accessories-legs/img-costume-accessories-leggings-fishnet.jpg[/img]




Are you f'n telling me all Seely needed was a (shock) condom and this wouldn't have happened. I don't want to believe it.....
kiwifan
Profile picture for user kiwifan
Posts
9485
Joined
10/31/2009
Location
CA US
kiwifan 10/4/2017 9:13pm
10/4/2017 9:13pm
Rooster wrote:
Shame that a little bit of duct tape could have sealed up that gap and kept the mud out. I guess there's no place for duct...
Shame that a little bit of duct tape could have sealed up that gap and kept the mud out.

I guess there's no place for duct tape on factory bikes.
arvid wrote:
you are not the sharpest knife in the drawer
Hut wrote:
Sharper than HRC apparently
surely you mean KYB, HRC do not make the shocks or deal with suspension....
gsxr6
Profile picture for user gsxr6
Posts
1956
Joined
9/3/2011
Location
Anderson, CA US
gsxr6 10/4/2017 9:38pm
10/4/2017 9:38pm Edited Date/Time 10/4/2017 9:39pm
Bad batch of raw material perhaps? Happens all the time nowdays. Honest subcontractors get sold bunk , counterfeit product across all industries. A fake iPhone is possible, perhaps the metal the part was made from was substandard/not up to the engineers standard. Happened to Aston Martin with accelerator pedals, caused their first recall ever
TXDirt
Profile picture for user TXDirt
Posts
7399
Joined
7/29/2015
Location
Plano, TX US
TXDirt 10/5/2017 1:14am
10/5/2017 1:14am
Firefly47 wrote:
Unreal.
A dirt bike.
On a track made of dirt.
Failed to finish a race due to dirt.
I thought the exact same thing when reading that statement.

Then to replace the failed part with the exact same part again was absolutely stupid.
darren7878 10/5/2017 1:19am
10/5/2017 1:19am
Jefro98 wrote:
The mud at Matterley was the stickiest mud I have ever seen. I would not fall off the bikes, just cloth up. I can imagine the...
The mud at Matterley was the stickiest mud I have ever seen. I would not fall off the bikes, just cloth up.
I can imagine the US mechanics did not expect this to happen.

During Sunday morning warm up the track was a mess. Luckily it became a bit better during the day.







Normal UK mud right there...........
darren7878 10/5/2017 1:29am
10/5/2017 1:29am
Jeez there's KYB A kit being used all around Europe without issue in similar conditions.

Some one mentioned 'short' springs and or preference for no preload being run by certain riders? Shock was never designed to be used like that.......................
kiwifan
Profile picture for user kiwifan
Posts
9485
Joined
10/31/2009
Location
CA US
kiwifan 10/5/2017 1:34am
10/5/2017 1:34am
darren7878 wrote:
Jeez there's KYB A kit being used all around Europe without issue in similar conditions. Some one mentioned 'short' springs and or preference for no preload...
Jeez there's KYB A kit being used all around Europe without issue in similar conditions.

Some one mentioned 'short' springs and or preference for no preload being run by certain riders? Shock was never designed to be used like that.......................
can we please use some common sense here...a KYB A kit is not the same as a Factory KYB shock....c'mon people!!!
darren7878 10/5/2017 1:39am
10/5/2017 1:39am
darren7878 wrote:
Jeez there's KYB A kit being used all around Europe without issue in similar conditions. Some one mentioned 'short' springs and or preference for no preload...
Jeez there's KYB A kit being used all around Europe without issue in similar conditions.

Some one mentioned 'short' springs and or preference for no preload being run by certain riders? Shock was never designed to be used like that.......................
kiwifan wrote:
can we please use some common sense here...a KYB A kit is not the same as a Factory KYB shock....c'mon people!!!
Ok then can we please use common sense and realise that this is not the only KYB factory rear shock in existence?

arvid
Profile picture for user arvid
Posts
110
Joined
2/23/2014
Location
SE
arvid 10/5/2017 1:46am
10/5/2017 1:46am
darren7878 wrote:
Jeez there's KYB A kit being used all around Europe without issue in similar conditions. Some one mentioned 'short' springs and or preference for no preload...
Jeez there's KYB A kit being used all around Europe without issue in similar conditions.

Some one mentioned 'short' springs and or preference for no preload being run by certain riders? Shock was never designed to be used like that.......................
i wouldn't say without issue.When it happends at MXoN it's a big deal.
kiwifan
Profile picture for user kiwifan
Posts
9485
Joined
10/31/2009
Location
CA US
kiwifan 10/5/2017 1:54am
10/5/2017 1:54am
darren7878 wrote:
Jeez there's KYB A kit being used all around Europe without issue in similar conditions. Some one mentioned 'short' springs and or preference for no preload...
Jeez there's KYB A kit being used all around Europe without issue in similar conditions.

Some one mentioned 'short' springs and or preference for no preload being run by certain riders? Shock was never designed to be used like that.......................
kiwifan wrote:
can we please use some common sense here...a KYB A kit is not the same as a Factory KYB shock....c'mon people!!!
darren7878 wrote:
Ok then can we please use common sense and realise that this is not the only KYB factory rear shock in existence?

did you not read the bit where ML says that the shock that Honda use is not the same as other factory KYB shocks....
Prejump
Profile picture for user Prejump
Posts
221
Joined
8/4/2017
Location
GB
Prejump 10/5/2017 1:56am
10/5/2017 1:56am
Before the shock went I noticed Seely coming very short on a few of the big jumps. With the added weight of the mud that would be one hell of an impact on the rear end.
arvid
Profile picture for user arvid
Posts
110
Joined
2/23/2014
Location
SE
arvid 10/5/2017 2:01am
10/5/2017 2:01am
Prejump wrote:
Before the shock went I noticed Seely coming very short on a few of the big jumps. With the added weight of the mud that would...
Before the shock went I noticed Seely coming very short on a few of the big jumps. With the added weight of the mud that would be one hell of an impact on the rear end.
it wasn't the added weight of the mud that caused the problem, but where the mud packed in and cause the pressure to dislodge and damage this retaining collar.

Pit Row

See All »
arvid
Profile picture for user arvid
Posts
110
Joined
2/23/2014
Location
SE
arvid 10/5/2017 2:04am
10/5/2017 2:04am
darren7878 wrote:
Ok then can we please use common sense and realise that this is not the only KYB factory rear shock in existence?

Seely was the only HRC rider at the race using KYB
Question
Profile picture for user Question
Posts
3076
Joined
6/26/2014
Location
FR
Question 10/5/2017 2:12am
10/5/2017 2:12am
Question wrote:
That's a good one. Looking at the mud, it is logical the french won because this is how the bike of any serious youngster looks like...
That's a good one.

Looking at the mud, it is logical the french won because this is how the bike of any serious youngster looks like at least 10% to 20% of the year. Except near "Provence", it is not Cali or Florida ... The British team could almost have had their own Maggiora 86 by playing a mudder wild card like Simpson.

Long story short:

A couple years ago a magic product for mud came out. Basically a product keeping the bike clean. Was it a total scam ???
F.B wrote:
Yeah, Charlier and Paulin grew up riding muddy tracks. Dry
True about the practice tracks but i am sure they had to race 5 good mudders per year, at least on sunday mornings, out of the 30 races they did per year. The North starts from Aix en Provence unfortunately Laughing The Euros had quite an advantage over Seely on that aspect.

Also some ofthe best french performances were in the mud, like the first huge international perf of Jmb at Unadilla 87 (or later hangtown 91), Paulin first moto win in Agueda 2008 or CP's only mxgp clinic in Brazil 2012. Mud for us is almost like sand for dutchies.
davis224
Profile picture for user davis224
Posts
6250
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Cornland, IL US
Fantasy
165th
davis224 10/5/2017 3:40am
10/5/2017 3:40am
davis224 wrote:
What would you have done to prevent this, armchair engineers? Clock is ticking.
newmann wrote:
How did I do?
I guess I assumed they had already done that and the mud still got through. Can anybody confirm they didn't cover the shock?
Jrewing
Profile picture for user Jrewing
Posts
2865
Joined
1/4/2014
Location
AU
Jrewing 10/5/2017 4:09am
10/5/2017 4:09am
Whats it matter he was slow as shit anyway. He's lucky it broke.
BobPA
Profile picture for user BobPA
Posts
8027
Joined
10/31/2013
Location
PA US
BobPA 10/5/2017 5:47am
10/5/2017 5:47am
Jrewing wrote:
Whats it matter he was slow as shit anyway. He's lucky it broke.
And the winner....for biggest turd...goes to...jrewing
Finnish_Flash_62 10/5/2017 5:48am
10/5/2017 5:48am
davis224 wrote:
What would you have done to prevent this, armchair engineers? Clock is ticking.
Underground wrote:
This exactly. Now keep in mind that there was about a couple of hours between motos from coming off the track to being in the parc...
This exactly. Now keep in mind that there was about a couple of hours between motos from coming off the track to being in the parc ferme, that's well before the sighting lap and gate drop, you've got to wash the bike like spotless, remove the seat tank and subframe and finish washing the bike, remove the shock, study, discuss, come up with a probable cause, decide if it was a technician error, mechanical or freak failure, come up with best solution, modify or change, reassemble the bike, go over the bike for other damage, change filters, oil and wheels/tyres and anything else damaged in his crashes like grips or levers, refuel the bike, change anything else Cole may have thought to be slowing him, and present to the parc ferme.
Would any of you here be able to do that? How long does it actually take you to wash your bike after a mud race?
Would be great to have hindsight and a week to come up with a dodgy resolution that is strong enough to stop mud that's been basically hydraulically rammed into the spring cup every time the shock bottoms,but they didn't.
Get over it and stop looking for someone to blame for the USA's lose. Accept it for what it was, a failure that hadn't presented itself in a whole year of racing and testing, and an ass whooping by certain French, Dutch and English riders
to the rest of the world.
This. Hindsight is always 20/20, but in between motos how do you decide if a part that has worked flawlessly for a year (and the whole weekend up until the first moto I have to add) would fail for a second time in two motos. We don’t know if they did some modifications between motos to prevent it from happening again, but it’s not like you can manufacture a brand new part in between motos. I’m sure those guys that worked on it between motos know better than anyone bitching about it on here and I’m sure they did everything they could and felt was necessary to do in a very short time.
newmann
Profile picture for user newmann
Posts
24444
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
newmann 10/5/2017 6:35am
10/5/2017 6:35am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2017 6:36am
Hannah says "40 years from now these teams will have this mud thing figured out".



Wow, would you look at all of those fans!



HenryA
Profile picture for user HenryA
Posts
3789
Joined
12/29/2011
Location
Stockholm SE
HenryA 10/5/2017 8:49am
10/5/2017 8:49am
Firefly47 wrote:
Unreal.
A dirt bike.
On a track made of dirt.
Failed to finish a race due to dirt.
TXDirt wrote:
I thought the exact same thing when reading that statement.

Then to replace the failed part with the exact same part again was absolutely stupid.
Kinda hilarious actually when you think about it.
They went to the UK, in September, with a shock that couldn't handle the mud.
Rooster
Profile picture for user Rooster
Posts
4430
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Edmonton CA
Rooster 10/5/2017 9:05am
10/5/2017 9:05am
GuyB wrote:
Seeing the cup design (with the bumper inside) and hearing of the sticky mud, I'm going to guess that when the shock body compressed into the...
Seeing the cup design (with the bumper inside) and hearing of the sticky mud, I'm going to guess that when the shock body compressed into the cup, it worked with the mud to act like hydraulic compression to wedge it partway open. Then spring pressure on the compromised part finished it off.
That was exactly what I was thinking. That cup design left way to much open area with mud that thick. It's like grease being packed into a bearing with no place to go. Something had to give.
silver753
Profile picture for user silver753
Posts
137
Joined
5/18/2010
Location
Brick, NJ US
silver753 10/5/2017 7:46pm
10/5/2017 7:46pm
Monday morning quarterbacks all over this post. So what they are saying, is if a part fails on my motorcycle, chain, bars, forks, shock, tires, tubes, throw it out completly and never install the same part again? If I have a Dunlop tube in my bike and I get a pinch flat, I'm putting a Dunlop tube back in it. If I bend my Renthals, I'm putting Renthals back on it. People think waaaaay too much, again, too much monday morning quaterback going on here. Hindsight is always 20/20.

If any of these morons had enough knowledge to be on a factory race team......oh never mind.....
H4L
Profile picture for user H4L
Posts
2499
Joined
3/18/2016
Location
CA US
H4L 10/6/2017 6:36am
10/6/2017 6:36am
silver753 wrote:
Monday morning quarterbacks all over this post. So what they are saying, is if a part fails on my motorcycle, chain, bars, forks, shock, tires, tubes...
Monday morning quarterbacks all over this post. So what they are saying, is if a part fails on my motorcycle, chain, bars, forks, shock, tires, tubes, throw it out completly and never install the same part again? If I have a Dunlop tube in my bike and I get a pinch flat, I'm putting a Dunlop tube back in it. If I bend my Renthals, I'm putting Renthals back on it. People think waaaaay too much, again, too much monday morning quaterback going on here. Hindsight is always 20/20.

If any of these morons had enough knowledge to be on a factory race team......oh never mind.....
LOL ! It's amusing to see the internet experts & their logic of something they have 0 experience at that level...
jj welks
Profile picture for user jj welks
Posts
712
Joined
5/14/2015
Location
NH US
jj welks 10/6/2017 6:41am
10/6/2017 6:41am
Hindsight is 20/20 now all these jokers can act like they know more than the Honda engineers and personal cause "da shock don't work in da mud da dur da durr *dribble dribble*

Post a reply to: HRC Honda releases statement on Cole Seely's Shock Failure at MXoN