Garret’s bars..

Edited Date/Time 4/16/2022 7:23pm
Did anyone see or find out what happened to his bars?
Was it the bars or clamps or what? Any pictures?

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soggy
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3/9/2022 9:35am
It was the clamps.
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ML512
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3/9/2022 10:05am
I have a photo I’ll dig up, it was the bar mounts/studs. Brandon Scharer did a set in practice as well.
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Nate_Z
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3/9/2022 10:06am
Luxon clamps this year right?
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The Shop

Luxon MX
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3/9/2022 10:45am
The bars did not break, it was the titanium bolts that hold the bar mounts to the clamps that broke when Garrett crashed. It was a freak incident and the bars hit the ground with all the weight of the bike and rider putting all the load into the bar mount bolts at just the right angle, which over-tensioned the bolts.

Garrett runs solid aluminum cones instead of rubber, plus a 4mm bar riser, which puts a lot more load through the bolts than a standard setup (rubber cones and no riser). That, combined with the bike hitting just right, did them in. It’s one of those situations, where, if you crash hard enough, something is going to break.

The bolts themselves are high quality, grade 5 titanium, with rolled threads, and installed such that the shear plane is across the bolt shank (not the threads). It's basically the best it can get from a bolt strength standpoint. We have thousands of these bolts in use right now and last weekend was the first time we've had any breaking. They're not a new batch, a new material, or anything out of the ordinary; they're the same as all the others out there, it was just a freak incident. And to be clear, it was the crash that caused the bolts to break, NOT the bolts that caused the crash (it’s clear from the video taken by Club MX).
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soggy
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3/9/2022 10:54am
Luxon MX wrote:
The bars did not break, it was the titanium bolts that hold the bar mounts to the clamps that broke when Garrett crashed. It was a...
The bars did not break, it was the titanium bolts that hold the bar mounts to the clamps that broke when Garrett crashed. It was a freak incident and the bars hit the ground with all the weight of the bike and rider putting all the load into the bar mount bolts at just the right angle, which over-tensioned the bolts.

Garrett runs solid aluminum cones instead of rubber, plus a 4mm bar riser, which puts a lot more load through the bolts than a standard setup (rubber cones and no riser). That, combined with the bike hitting just right, did them in. It’s one of those situations, where, if you crash hard enough, something is going to break.

The bolts themselves are high quality, grade 5 titanium, with rolled threads, and installed such that the shear plane is across the bolt shank (not the threads). It's basically the best it can get from a bolt strength standpoint. We have thousands of these bolts in use right now and last weekend was the first time we've had any breaking. They're not a new batch, a new material, or anything out of the ordinary; they're the same as all the others out there, it was just a freak incident. And to be clear, it was the crash that caused the bolts to break, NOT the bolts that caused the crash (it’s clear from the video taken by Club MX).
Cool of you to hop on here and offer some background info. From garrets description it sounds like the mounts broke when he landed and the resulting crash was because the bars weren’t connected to the bike any more.
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3/9/2022 10:59am
Luxon MX wrote:
The bars did not break, it was the titanium bolts that hold the bar mounts to the clamps that broke when Garrett crashed. It was a...
The bars did not break, it was the titanium bolts that hold the bar mounts to the clamps that broke when Garrett crashed. It was a freak incident and the bars hit the ground with all the weight of the bike and rider putting all the load into the bar mount bolts at just the right angle, which over-tensioned the bolts.

Garrett runs solid aluminum cones instead of rubber, plus a 4mm bar riser, which puts a lot more load through the bolts than a standard setup (rubber cones and no riser). That, combined with the bike hitting just right, did them in. It’s one of those situations, where, if you crash hard enough, something is going to break.

The bolts themselves are high quality, grade 5 titanium, with rolled threads, and installed such that the shear plane is across the bolt shank (not the threads). It's basically the best it can get from a bolt strength standpoint. We have thousands of these bolts in use right now and last weekend was the first time we've had any breaking. They're not a new batch, a new material, or anything out of the ordinary; they're the same as all the others out there, it was just a freak incident. And to be clear, it was the crash that caused the bolts to break, NOT the bolts that caused the crash (it’s clear from the video taken by Club MX).
Thanks for responding, but try not to sound so defensive.. nobody here is blaming any product.
We all understand shit breaks now and again, especially in such extreme use.
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73
3/9/2022 11:00am
Yikes! Do those clamps come with Ti bolts, or is that a modification the team made? Sounds sketchy.
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Luxon MX
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3/9/2022 11:13am
soggy wrote:
Cool of you to hop on here and offer some background info. From garrets description it sounds like the mounts broke when he landed and the...
Cool of you to hop on here and offer some background info. From garrets description it sounds like the mounts broke when he landed and the resulting crash was because the bars weren’t connected to the bike any more.
Yeah, I think it just happened all so fast that it was hard for him to tell. The video shows it pretty clearly, though. Garrett overshot the triple and landed in the transition to the next single. That bucked him hard and he lost control and the bike slammed into the back face next single right before the corner. Bars and everything were all still attached up until the bike hit the ground.

Here's a screengrab of the crash as the bars hit the ground. Note how deep they get buried into the face of the single (past the grip). That put a huge load on the bolts, which is why they failed.


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Nate_Z
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3/9/2022 11:21am
Agreed, thanks for chiming in and clarifying the situation. I picked up a set of Luxon clamps this winter and am excited to try them out. As an engineer myself, I appreciate the engineering that went into them.
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Magoofan
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3/9/2022 11:23am
Braking bar mounts....talk about a sphincter pucker moment...
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DEMONDAVE
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3/9/2022 11:45am
Magoofan wrote:
Braking bar mounts....talk about a sphincter pucker moment...
as Jett says "that'll put mud in your shorts"
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Luxon MX
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3/9/2022 12:18pm
Thanks for responding, but try not to sound so defensive.. nobody here is blaming any product. We all understand shit breaks now and again, especially in...
Thanks for responding, but try not to sound so defensive.. nobody here is blaming any product.
We all understand shit breaks now and again, especially in such extreme use.
I'm not trying to sound defensive, just trying to make sure the facts are out there and understood before this turns into something it's not. There are already a couple posts in this thread insinuating that the bars broke off while Garrett was riding, but that was not the case.

It's easy for this to turn into a thread where people leave thinking the product is bad, but the reality is that it was just a freak crash in combination with a setup that very few people are using (aluminum cones and bar risers).
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soggy
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3/9/2022 12:42pm
Thanks for responding, but try not to sound so defensive.. nobody here is blaming any product. We all understand shit breaks now and again, especially in...
Thanks for responding, but try not to sound so defensive.. nobody here is blaming any product.
We all understand shit breaks now and again, especially in such extreme use.
Pretty ironic coming from you.

And he didn’t sound defensive at all.
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Luxon MX
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3/9/2022 12:52pm
Same situation for Julien Beneks clamps?
Yep, Julien had a MASSIVE crash in practice. I don't have a video of that crash, but my understanding is that he basically ghost rode the bike off a triple. If you have a crash big enough, something's going to break. And often time is will be a bar mount, bars, or similar, since the bars act as a big lever arm that puts a huge amount of force on the mounts, far more force than they would see otherwise.

It's easy to design something that will never break, but your design will end up really heavy. When you're making high end parts, that's not acceptable. So we compromise to make the lightest parts we can that hold up to regular use and reasonable crashes. That's how we end up with the lightest high performance triple clamps available.

If this were all really a design problem, you'd see it happening a lot more often. We just happened to have some huge crashes at Daytona.
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Moto520
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3/9/2022 12:58pm Edited Date/Time 3/9/2022 1:00pm
Great to get a quick response and explanation directly from Luxon! The level of information that we get nowadays is incredible. I don't think this negatively reflects anything other than the roll that gravity plays on dirt bikes. The issue with a situation like this is some douchebag poking at Luxon just to be a dick. It happens all the time in the forums and it's just a part of the deal.
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wrc777
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3/9/2022 12:59pm
Nice pic of the grip buried in the dirt and his knew trapping it there. It might not have broken on a harder surface.
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Broseph
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3/9/2022 1:35pm
soggy wrote:
Pretty ironic coming from you.

And he didn’t sound defensive at all.
Nearly as ironic as you using 'Soggy' as a user name.
Sounding a little defensive there bud.
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aees
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3/9/2022 1:44pm
Same situation for Julien Beneks clamps?
Luxon MX wrote:
Yep, Julien had a MASSIVE crash in practice. I don't have a video of that crash, but my understanding is that he basically ghost rode the...
Yep, Julien had a MASSIVE crash in practice. I don't have a video of that crash, but my understanding is that he basically ghost rode the bike off a triple. If you have a crash big enough, something's going to break. And often time is will be a bar mount, bars, or similar, since the bars act as a big lever arm that puts a huge amount of force on the mounts, far more force than they would see otherwise.

It's easy to design something that will never break, but your design will end up really heavy. When you're making high end parts, that's not acceptable. So we compromise to make the lightest parts we can that hold up to regular use and reasonable crashes. That's how we end up with the lightest high performance triple clamps available.

If this were all really a design problem, you'd see it happening a lot more often. We just happened to have some huge crashes at Daytona.
Do you think with this experience, you would go for steel bolts for bikes at this level? Maybe they would have bent, but been able to ride it through if it was a last lap or two remaining?
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Luxon MX
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3/9/2022 2:26pm
aees wrote:
Do you think with this experience, you would go for steel bolts for bikes at this level? Maybe they would have bent, but been able to...
Do you think with this experience, you would go for steel bolts for bikes at this level? Maybe they would have bent, but been able to ride it through if it was a last lap or two remaining?
In general, no, especially for our riders who are running the rubber cones and not the aluminum cones. The aluminum cones put A LOT more stress on the bolts than the rubber cones.

Grade 5 titanium is stronger than a grade 8.8 steel bolt, so there's no point in switching it out for that. Going up the ratings, a 10.9 bolt is only about 8% stronger than the titanium bolt, but slightly more brittle, so no big benefit there.

But if you go up to a 12.9 bolt, then you're about 30% stronger (though more brittle than the titanium), which may help in some crashes. The steel bolts won't bend much instead of breaking, especially in Garrett's crash (tensile failure) and even if they did, I wouldn't want anyone riding on them further as that would be a dangerous situation itself.

The grade 12.9 steel bolt will be a little stronger and could save a DNF in some crashes vs. the titanium bolt. I don't think it would have mattered much in Garrett's crash as everything aligned just right to put all the load in the bolts in tension. And in Julien's case, his crash was so huge that even if the bolts didn't fail, he wasn't going to keep riding as his leg was broken.

One thing about the steel bolts is that they're more resilient to torque variation. It's easy to over-torque a titanium bolt if you're in a hurry, aren't using a good torque wrench, have the wrong anti-seize, or similar; and that can put either too much or too little clamping load on the assembly. Most of the mechanics are pretty good about getting the torque right, but sometimes they can forget, or are in a rush to get the bike done. And that can lead to problems on it's own. So in that case a steel bolt can be "better". But it also weighs about twice as much as the titanium option, so again, it's a compromise.
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GrapeApe
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3/9/2022 2:30pm
What happened with Scharer, same thing?
Luxon MX
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3/9/2022 2:39pm
GrapeApe wrote:
What happened with Scharer, same thing?
I don't know the details of what happened there, other than it was a crash and Club MX wasn't concerned with it.
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lostboy819
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3/9/2022 2:50pm
Yikes! Do those clamps come with Ti bolts, or is that a modification the team made? Sounds sketchy.
Why does it sound "sketchy" ?
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langhammx
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3/9/2022 5:06pm
Anyone remember when MC's clamps broke at the '98 Pontiac SX? [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/03/09/537282/s1200_mcbars.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/03/09/537283/s1200_mcbars2.jpg[/img]
Anyone remember when MC's clamps broke at the '98 Pontiac SX?



Those were APPLIED triple clamps

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