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I'm starting to become a firm believer that the GP riders are much more talented and faster than our guys state side. Ferrandis came right over and has been battling up front, they smoked RV, the fastest guy we've had in years and they've been whooping our ass at MXDN. I feel like if they sent over their top 5 riders, Tomac may finish off the podium. Am I the only one thinking this?
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The RV comment is poor judgment. He was up front when he wanted to be. His heart was not in it. Rewind back to his MXON races then come back to your pathetic thread. let us know how that works out for you.
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jorgechavez wrote:
So what about when Tomac smoked them all at Charlotte?
The hybrid national track?
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Glen Helen Eli Tomac, Dude came from outside the top 10 both motos against all the top GP guys
And his fastest lap was 6 ish seconds faster then 2nd place.
And we haven't been getting smoked at the nations. Go watch them again..
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Our top guys and their top guys are probably similar speed. I would give Herlings/Cairoli a better chance of winning a title here right away than I would for Tomac to win there but guys like Roczen and Musquin who came from there would battle at the top.
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ButteryWaffles wrote:
I'm starting to become a firm believer that the GP riders are much more talented and faster than our guys state side. Ferrandis came right over and has been battling up front, they smoked RV, the fastest guy we've had in years and they've been whooping our ass at MXDN. I feel like if they sent over their top 5 riders, Tomac may finish off the podium. Am I the only one thinking this?
Hahahaha man gimme some of whatever youre smoking! In all seriousness though, our guys (U.S.) spend half the year concentrating on supercross while the guys in the gps ride outdoors all year long. If the AMA guys ride supercross half the year and outdoors the other half then wouldnt they be the better riders since the only ride outdoors for 6 months and can still beat the GP riders when the GP riders ride outdoors all year? Think about that.
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CrGuy2T wrote:
The RV comment is poor judgment. He was up front when he wanted to be. His heart was not in it. Rewind back to his MXON races then come back to your pathetic thread. let us know how that works out for you.
I'll rewind back to his 2011, his last MXON race I believe, the same year as his first national title. He stuck around for 4 years after that. I know he wasn't at the top of his game, but an 80% RV was still a top 5 rider over here. I'm not sure if it's money, lack of teams, tracks or what, but it just seems like there is faster riders coming from the GP's than we have here at the moment. Supercross isn't helping our guys out.
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jorgechavez wrote:
So what about when Tomac smoked them all at Charlotte?
ButteryWaffles wrote:
The hybrid national track?
The GP riders have more experience riding on those flat motocross tracks as about a third of their series is raced at that style of track. The GP riders are amazing and they very well may be better I really don't know but all I'm saying is that is the last time a top AMA rider raced against the top GP rider(s) on a fair playing field and we saw the result.
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cameron96 wrote:
Glen Helen Eli Tomac, Dude came from outside the top 10 both motos against all the top GP guys
And his fastest lap was 6 ish seconds faster then 2nd place.
And we haven't been getting smoked at the nations. Go watch them again..
We haven't won in 5 years. The last time we won was off of a 7 year win streak. I know we have fast guys, but I think the GP's have deeper competition.
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CrGuy2T wrote:
The RV comment is poor judgment. He was up front when he wanted to be. His heart was not in it. Rewind back to his MXON races then come back to your pathetic thread. let us know how that works out for you.
ButteryWaffles wrote:
I'll rewind back to his 2011, his last MXON race I believe, the same year as his first national title. He stuck around for 4 years after that. I know he wasn't at the top of his game, but an 80% RV was still a top 5 rider over here. I'm not sure if it's money, lack of teams, tracks or what, but it just seems like there is faster riders coming from the GP's than we have here at the moment. Supercross isn't helping our guys out.
The GP 250 class begs to differ imo.
The AMA 250 class is DEEP. Soo many good guys, the mx2 class is not the greatest tho.
combine the talent in box classes and AMA has way more guys
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I won't get into the US vs. Euro fight, but I will say I am damn glad I purchased the MXGP TV pass. It's been awesome watching the GP guys...especially some of the Carioli/Herlings battles.
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much ty. How to spot a paid forum poster/artificial forum traffic producer (see list of actions/phrases below):
Copius pattern amounts of phrases like “Anyone have”..., “Anybody know?”.... and their variations.
Thoughts?
Any help is appreciated!
Thanks in advance!
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cameron96 wrote:
Glen Helen Eli Tomac, Dude came from outside the top 10 both motos against all the top GP guys
And his fastest lap was 6 ish seconds faster then 2nd place.
And we haven't been getting smoked at the nations. Go watch them again..ButteryWaffles wrote:
We haven't won in 5 years. The last time we won was off of a 7 year win streak. I know we have fast guys, but I think the GP's have deeper competition.
Coop battling Febvre and Anderson leading Herlings.
Eli coming from wayyyyy behind to crash out.
Sure we sucked one or 2 years but we aren't getting smoked. Sending B teams and still fightin for the win
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kkawboy14 wrote:
SX or MX?
Moose can just beat the best here 4 motos in a row........
MX, although back in 2011 it only took Kenny 3 or 4 races to land on the podium in supercross with a busted ankle. He finished within the top 10 at Anaheim 1. I can't remember if it was that race or round 2 at Phoenix when he cased the triple. He's a different breed though.
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kkawboy14 wrote:
SX or MX?
Moose can just beat the best here 4 motos in a row........
Moose can has been here how many years? He's an AMA rider now no matter where he was born. The title is AMA vs. GP, not GP vs United States.
When our guys race theirs on their soil and tracks it's tough. When they come here to race on our soil it's nearly impossible for them to win against our best.
If we're going AMA vs GP who do you think would win: Tomac, Musquin, Anderson, Osborne and Baggett vs. Cairoli, Herlings, Gajser, Jonass and Desalle?
If it's being held anywhere in the USA I would say the AMA. Anywhere across the pond I say the GP guys.
Now go back to last year and the AMA has Tomac, Dungey, Roczen, Musquin and Webb they would have won absolutely anywhere in the world minus maybe a sand track.
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If the MXDN is the end all, be all of who has the best racers... then you have to look at statistics.
The USA holds the most victories in the event with 22 (of 70 events).
If you go back to 2005, the average US finish is 1.6. In that same time period, Belgium's average finish is 2.75 and France 3.
If we look at results starting since 2010, US average finish 2.14, Belgium 2.71, and France 3.28.
Since 2000, the US is the only team to finish top 3 in every year they competed. Let's not forget the 13 year winning streak starting in 1981.
I'd dig up more but I think this is enough for most people to draw a conclusion.
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cameron96 wrote:
Glen Helen Eli Tomac, Dude came from outside the top 10 both motos against all the top GP guys
And his fastest lap was 6 ish seconds faster then 2nd place.
And we haven't been getting smoked at the nations. Go watch them again..
"And his fastest lap was 6 ish seconds faster then 2nd place."
Alternative fact?
Time practice
Pos 1. Van Horebeek: 2:04.324
Pos 2. Tomac: 2:04.418
Qualifying race
Pos 1. Febvre: 2:07.930
Pos 6. Tomac: 2:09.818
Moto 1
Pos 1. Tomac: 2:07.621
Pos 2. Cairoli: 2:09.037
Moto 2
Pos 1. Tomac: 2:08.662
Pos 2. Cairoli: 2:11.180
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F.B wrote:
"And his fastest lap was 6 ish seconds faster then 2nd place."
Alternative fact?
Time practice
Pos 1. Van Horebeek: 2:04.324
Pos 2. Tomac: 2:04.418
Qualifying race
Pos 1. Febvre: 2:07.930
Pos 6. Tomac: 2:09.818
Moto 1
Pos 1. Tomac: 2:07.621
Pos 2. Cairoli: 2:09.037
Moto 2
Pos 1. Tomac: 2:08.662
Pos 2. Cairoli: 2:11.180
2 seconds a lap is still fast..
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F.B wrote:
"And his fastest lap was 6 ish seconds faster then 2nd place."
Alternative fact?
Time practice
Pos 1. Van Horebeek: 2:04.324
Pos 2. Tomac: 2:04.418
Qualifying race
Pos 1. Febvre: 2:07.930
Pos 6. Tomac: 2:09.818
Moto 1
Pos 1. Tomac: 2:07.621
Pos 2. Cairoli: 2:09.037
Moto 2
Pos 1. Tomac: 2:08.662
Pos 2. Cairoli: 2:11.180
Wow! Your are indeed a "student of the numbers"...
Given that you have all this information at your fingertips, please post the gap between first and second at the end of each Moto.
.
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YamahaJT1 wrote:
Wow! Your are indeed a "student of the numbers"...
Given that you have all this information at your fingertips, please post the gap between first and second at the end of each Moto.
He said 6 seconds faster which is bullshit, so I posted the actual times, nothing more. What's so hard to understand?
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I think the GP 450 class is deeper right now. I also think that they are seeing benefits to mostly motocross only training. The GP riders have the edge in technical rough and rutted tracks.
The American riders know that Supercross is what will get them a big contract so that's what they concentrate on. It would be interesting if the race had Supercross on Saturday and Motocross on Sunday.
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The GP series is an entirely different game from the perspective of an American. From logistics to training to travel to time zones, climates, languages, track familiarity, and vastly different track conditions (Qatar to Lommel?!), etc... I give those guys a ton of credit for enduring those GP seasons and to any American who goes over there to compete. Qatar to Indonesia to Argentina to Europe, Eastern Europe. That's nothing like traversing the contiguous United States. Nevermind all the other bullshit.
It would take a top American prospect a few years to adjust to all that and expect to be competitive. I don't really think it was reasonable to expect RV to go straight over there and compete. RV and his wife were on an extended vacation. He wasn't there to dominate.
Here's an argument that's worthy of discussion: it's easier for a European to come over here and assimilate to American professional racing and have a chance at succeeding than it is for an American to go to Europe and experience the same.
Broadening the way you evaluate and judge top professional motocross racers to include the gazillion other factors that go into being successful beyond talent on a bike may eventually make this stupid fucking argument go away forever, along with world peace and a cure for cancer, so I'm not holding my breath.
This age-old argument of who is better or not is stupid, and old. They are all badasses.
