GEICO engine failures....

Jbulz
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Jbulz 6/27/2018 1:33pm
6/27/2018 1:33pm
Rhody wrote:
And I would expect that your companies revenue is orders of magnitude higher than a MX teams, or they wouldn't fold up so often.
seth505 wrote:
Ya, to think a race team has the time and resources to use all these methods/tools is silly. I just think a lot of the comments...
Ya, to think a race team has the time and resources to use all these methods/tools is silly. I just think a lot of the comments are hilarious, not trying to be mr.know-it-all though.
To be fair, some of those tools are $150k+... but several are only ~$10k and students use them on FSAE teams. The expensive part is getting the data to calibrate them.
liver
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liver 6/27/2018 4:17pm
6/27/2018 4:17pm
mxtech1 wrote:
Taken from this week's Pit Bits "After the engine problems the GEICO Honda team guys had at High Point, the team went through a top-to-bottom review...
Taken from this week's Pit Bits

"After the engine problems the GEICO Honda team guys had at High Point, the team went through a top-to-bottom review of products and procedures required to make sure that components from a variety of vendors aren't conflicting with each other. A few ten thousandths here and there can add up."

Makes me really consider how they are developing engine packages in-house. Any good engineer would analyze the GD&T and how stack-ups can impact the overall system before a single engine is ever assembled. This is 101 type stuff.

It sounds more like they spec components, throw it together, and then go test. Are the engine packages ever modeled and analyzed?

Seems like PC and some of the other 250 teams would operate under the same method.

I guess I just find it crazy that these teams expect so much of these motors and don't go through fundamental engineering practices that reveal many of these issues through modeling. Think of a program like JGR and their engineering staff....you just don't see those type of issues with them (or any of the Factory teams with OEM design support)

I would say this is a byproduct of guys that have just learned the engine craft through years of experience without any formal engineering training (not to discredit them, because these guys have forgotten more than most of us will ever dream to know about engine building)
Do you know you’re wrong, or not know you’re wrong? You sound like a kid that just got out of eng school and thinks he’s knows something. For 20 years, I’ve been working in field service for a leading engine manufacture, from that experience I thank you for adding more shitty data to a world filled with shitty data. forums are 99.9% shit data, the more you know, you more you’ll understand humans don’t really know that much, but the stupid ones think we are absolutely brilliant, ha
Hcallz5
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Hcallz5 6/27/2018 5:19pm
6/27/2018 5:19pm
Maybe they come apart on occasion because they were engineered for 38hp and they're cranking them up to 50+ Woohoo

I'm no enginerd but know enough to know that cost, safety and reliability are among the top concerns of OEM engineers. If you're talking about aftermarket mods all they can really do is try this compression ratio with this profile cam with this fuel map, port the head, polish the trans etc etc and see where it gets them.

Has Honda maybe pushed their quest for power past their concern for reliability? possibly. Maybe their ceiling for making more power reliably isn't quite as high as a Yamaha and they need to tweak the design a bit.
JM485
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JM485 6/27/2018 5:42pm
6/27/2018 5:42pm
liver wrote:
Do you know you’re wrong, or not know you’re wrong? You sound like a kid that just got out of eng school and thinks he’s knows...
Do you know you’re wrong, or not know you’re wrong? You sound like a kid that just got out of eng school and thinks he’s knows something. For 20 years, I’ve been working in field service for a leading engine manufacture, from that experience I thank you for adding more shitty data to a world filled with shitty data. forums are 99.9% shit data, the more you know, you more you’ll understand humans don’t really know that much, but the stupid ones think we are absolutely brilliant, ha
Nothing could be more true than this, the more I learn the more I realize just how truely stupid and simple minded I really am.Laughing

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Underground 6/27/2018 7:05pm
6/27/2018 7:05pm
liver wrote:
Do you know you’re wrong, or not know you’re wrong? You sound like a kid that just got out of eng school and thinks he’s knows...
Do you know you’re wrong, or not know you’re wrong? You sound like a kid that just got out of eng school and thinks he’s knows something. For 20 years, I’ve been working in field service for a leading engine manufacture, from that experience I thank you for adding more shitty data to a world filled with shitty data. forums are 99.9% shit data, the more you know, you more you’ll understand humans don’t really know that much, but the stupid ones think we are absolutely brilliant, ha
JM485 wrote:
Nothing could be more true than this, the more I learn the more I realize just how truely stupid and simple minded I really am.Laughing
I'm on board with the above, and the above above 100.0000% (calculation to the nearest ten thousandth + or - 0.0001)

From my understanding, FCR does nearly all their own R&D for the custom one of a special order parts they use just like every other top tier team. With some assistance from Honda. Technical mostly. And they do some modeling and failure analysis. That's why FCR and not Japan supplied 114 a baseline engine spec which FCR has come a long way from and is entirely different to their own because of rules. Best in the world with CRF250F's. There's FA in those engines that sits in a box down at Parts are Us.
Can't image the cost that would eat into their budget to have an engineer (now the highest paid guy in the building) permanently based within the team running modeling and analysis programs daily for the shit they are constantly trailing in dyno engines and then practice engines in the search for an edge on the competition. This isn't mass production. That comes later. And with less performance. If that was the answer, F1 wouldn't have engine failures right? Quite happy to put a bet on they have engineers and modelling though.
wildbill
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wildbill 6/27/2018 7:20pm
6/27/2018 7:20pm
bvm111 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/06/26/270514/s1200_engineer_funny_definition.jpg[/img]

... And have, quite possibly, the worst grammar skills of all us 'tards.
neysbo
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neysbo 6/27/2018 7:31pm
6/27/2018 7:31pm
Do you engineers realize Sexton had a rock or something put a hole in his case and it lost all the oil thus the failure.

Jeremy’s seemed more an electrical issue but who knows for sure.

Solidkm
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Solidkm 6/27/2018 7:52pm
6/27/2018 7:52pm
mxtech1 wrote:
Taken from this week's Pit Bits "After the engine problems the GEICO Honda team guys had at High Point, the team went through a top-to-bottom review...
Taken from this week's Pit Bits

"After the engine problems the GEICO Honda team guys had at High Point, the team went through a top-to-bottom review of products and procedures required to make sure that components from a variety of vendors aren't conflicting with each other. A few ten thousandths here and there can add up."

Makes me really consider how they are developing engine packages in-house. Any good engineer would analyze the GD&T and how stack-ups can impact the overall system before a single engine is ever assembled. This is 101 type stuff.

It sounds more like they spec components, throw it together, and then go test. Are the engine packages ever modeled and analyzed?

Seems like PC and some of the other 250 teams would operate under the same method.

I guess I just find it crazy that these teams expect so much of these motors and don't go through fundamental engineering practices that reveal many of these issues through modeling. Think of a program like JGR and their engineering staff....you just don't see those type of issues with them (or any of the Factory teams with OEM design support)

I would say this is a byproduct of guys that have just learned the engine craft through years of experience without any formal engineering training (not to discredit them, because these guys have forgotten more than most of us will ever dream to know about engine building)
liver wrote:
Do you know you’re wrong, or not know you’re wrong? You sound like a kid that just got out of eng school and thinks he’s knows...
Do you know you’re wrong, or not know you’re wrong? You sound like a kid that just got out of eng school and thinks he’s knows something. For 20 years, I’ve been working in field service for a leading engine manufacture, from that experience I thank you for adding more shitty data to a world filled with shitty data. forums are 99.9% shit data, the more you know, you more you’ll understand humans don’t really know that much, but the stupid ones think we are absolutely brilliant, ha
MXTECH1, I guess he thinks that you jerk off clowns on your 9-5....
cable
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cable 6/27/2018 8:14pm
6/27/2018 8:14pm
mxtech1 wrote:
Taken from this week's Pit Bits "After the engine problems the GEICO Honda team guys had at High Point, the team went through a top-to-bottom review...
Taken from this week's Pit Bits

"After the engine problems the GEICO Honda team guys had at High Point, the team went through a top-to-bottom review of products and procedures required to make sure that components from a variety of vendors aren't conflicting with each other. A few ten thousandths here and there can add up."

Makes me really consider how they are developing engine packages in-house. Any good engineer would analyze the GD&T and how stack-ups can impact the overall system before a single engine is ever assembled. This is 101 type stuff.

It sounds more like they spec components, throw it together, and then go test. Are the engine packages ever modeled and analyzed?

Seems like PC and some of the other 250 teams would operate under the same method.

I guess I just find it crazy that these teams expect so much of these motors and don't go through fundamental engineering practices that reveal many of these issues through modeling. Think of a program like JGR and their engineering staff....you just don't see those type of issues with them (or any of the Factory teams with OEM design support)

I would say this is a byproduct of guys that have just learned the engine craft through years of experience without any formal engineering training (not to discredit them, because these guys have forgotten more than most of us will ever dream to know about engine building)
liver wrote:
Do you know you’re wrong, or not know you’re wrong? You sound like a kid that just got out of eng school and thinks he’s knows...
Do you know you’re wrong, or not know you’re wrong? You sound like a kid that just got out of eng school and thinks he’s knows something. For 20 years, I’ve been working in field service for a leading engine manufacture, from that experience I thank you for adding more shitty data to a world filled with shitty data. forums are 99.9% shit data, the more you know, you more you’ll understand humans don’t really know that much, but the stupid ones think we are absolutely brilliant, ha
One of the best suspension tuners in the world. Not everyone is well known to forum gurus, just like the old engine builder from michigan that all the factory teams have copied over and over again. Geico needs to call RHC stat.
H4L
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H4L 6/28/2018 8:40am
6/28/2018 8:40am
kiwifan wrote:
I think you guys are totally over analysing all this, it could simply be a bad batch of one component....also no amount of 'modelling' and/or testing...
I think you guys are totally over analysing all this, it could simply be a bad batch of one component....also no amount of 'modelling' and/or testing replaces actual racing ....
^^This^^

I've worked in the automotive industry for 32 yrs. & have seen failures in my line of work. I'm a rep for a worldwide company that helps develop products by providing feedback at the ground level. I've worked for a manufacturer & distribution so I've seen both sides of the fence. What the engineers provide is a big part of the equation, but they can't replicate real world experience.
slipdog
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slipdog 6/28/2018 8:49am
6/28/2018 8:49am
cable wrote:
One of the best suspension tuners in the world. Not everyone is well known to forum gurus, just like the old engine builder from michigan that...
One of the best suspension tuners in the world. Not everyone is well known to forum gurus, just like the old engine builder from michigan that all the factory teams have copied over and over again. Geico needs to call RHC stat.
I'm not totally sure what you meant by this comment, but I think you may be confusing him with someone else because of his screen name.
miketherider 6/28/2018 9:46am
6/28/2018 9:46am
Can bench test/dyno tune/have as many meeting with engineers as possible; the fact is the sport is hard on equipment and it's damn near impossible to replicate every scenario. What if the rider missed a shift? Caught a rut wrong and used too much clutch? What if he shifted at some exact point that had not been done before? Bike problems are like injury reports in the NHL (IE: 'upper body'); we know something is/went bad, but no way they are giving away their issues or the fix.
Derek Harris 6/28/2018 5:21pm
6/28/2018 5:21pm
It's nearly impossible on the budget these teams have to - to replicate race like abuse in a lab.

The engine banging off the rev limiter then hooking up when it lands and dropping 8000 rpm is brutal on parts.....

Little resonance issues arise that are incredibly hard to solve - some of these resonance issues are solved with a small part change with no TRUE understanding of what's fixed.

The TRUE understanding comes from phd level engineers with sub staff - a year's time - and LOTS of testing - both digitally and destructively.

OEMS essentially drive this R&D - to further understanding and lower costs down the road - and teams push the envelope of whats possible - such that the OEMS can study and it and undserstand it....

Let's not forget - even WITH billion dollar budgets - the BEST engineers - the BEST modelling software - the BEST test facilities - the BEST machining capability - the BEST assembly - F1 still undergoes failures from time to time - especially when the rules had the RPM higher.

Pit Row

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