Full Tilt CR250 Build - MXA Two Stroke Hall of Fame

blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 12/31/2015 4:19pm
12/31/2015 4:19pm
cmotodad wrote:
On the Lightspeed C/F chain guides built for Factory Honda, they are having him make them solid. He said they had a problem or 2 with...
On the Lightspeed C/F chain guides built for Factory Honda, they are having him make them solid. He said they had a problem or 2 with rocks going in the holes. It is more weight, but interesting to note.
The last time I looked Factory Honda was running aluminum guides?



Tokyo_Tiddler 12/31/2015 8:21pm
12/31/2015 8:21pm
Tokyo_Tiddler wrote:
When you say "kit fork", since I believe you are using production CRF based upper and lower tubes, were you able to get a hold of...
When you say "kit fork", since I believe you are using production CRF based upper and lower tubes, were you able to get a hold of KYB B kit dampening rods/ internals or something?

On my 450 I used the production 2012 CRF450 KYB fork, Kashima/DLC coatings, CNC lugs, CNC fork caps, changed the oil lock collars, pressure springs, spring perches, low friction seals, etc... just about everything you could do to a stock fork.. and they are better, but just could not get the same feel as the works Showa's on my CR250 which has regular seals and no coatings on the lowers. I compared the internals with the Showa stock ones and while they look identical with the exception of the kashima coating on the works dampening rod, the works dampening units were much smoother which made me feel that is where much of the meaningful difference is besides the valving.

Also, on the rear shock, I heard many people were replacing the rebound on the 2015 shock with the old style on the lower clevis, claiming it worked better. I see that you preferred the 2015 configuration.

Looking forward to seeing the final build! Cool ride!

mike
blackdiamond wrote:
I am running the works free pistons, oil lock collars and spring perches in addition to the coatings.
I was going to get the free pistons, but after discussion with RG3...who suggested they were stronger, but much heavier, we decided to forego them since the stock ones weren't prone to breaking and there was no real performance benefit.

Are those stock fork lugs that you machined to lighten them? Looks great.
CrGuy2T
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CrGuy2T 12/31/2015 9:16pm
12/31/2015 9:16pm Edited Date/Time 12/31/2015 9:29pm
blackdiamond wrote:
Personally I think the KYB kit forks work better than the A Kit Showas, but that is just my opinion. I just sold a set of...
Personally I think the KYB kit forks work better than the A Kit Showas, but that is just my opinion. I just sold a set of A Kit when I started this build and if I thought they were better I would have put them on the bike. The production forks nowadays are much closer to kit forks than they used to be. The coatings and the valving are the biggest difference (again my opinion)
Do you prefer the kyb over the Showa 48mms? I agree the production forks now days are right on par. I actually liked my 48mm showas better than my A kit. Shock is a little bit different story. Those kashima hubs are sweet. I think the 02-07 cr's were before their time. To this day they still look modern and better than most bikes out there. I'm looking for an alluminum tank for 02-07 cr by the way of anyone knows where one is.
brimx153
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brimx153 12/31/2015 9:21pm
12/31/2015 9:21pm
man this is the best build ever . but how are you going to ride it .it s a work of art

The Shop

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dbrunski125 12/31/2015 9:40pm
12/31/2015 9:40pm
blackdiamond wrote:
Personally I think the KYB kit forks work better than the A Kit Showas, but that is just my opinion. I just sold a set of...
Personally I think the KYB kit forks work better than the A Kit Showas, but that is just my opinion. I just sold a set of A Kit when I started this build and if I thought they were better I would have put them on the bike. The production forks nowadays are much closer to kit forks than they used to be. The coatings and the valving are the biggest difference (again my opinion)
CrGuy2T wrote:
Do you prefer the kyb over the Showa 48mms? I agree the production forks now days are right on par. I actually liked my 48mm showas...
Do you prefer the kyb over the Showa 48mms? I agree the production forks now days are right on par. I actually liked my 48mm showas better than my A kit. Shock is a little bit different story. Those kashima hubs are sweet. I think the 02-07 cr's were before their time. To this day they still look modern and better than most bikes out there. I'm looking for an alluminum tank for 02-07 cr by the way of anyone knows where one is.
What did you not like about the shock?
CrGuy2T
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CrGuy2T 12/31/2015 10:14pm
12/31/2015 10:14pm
blackdiamond wrote:
Personally I think the KYB kit forks work better than the A Kit Showas, but that is just my opinion. I just sold a set of...
Personally I think the KYB kit forks work better than the A Kit Showas, but that is just my opinion. I just sold a set of A Kit when I started this build and if I thought they were better I would have put them on the bike. The production forks nowadays are much closer to kit forks than they used to be. The coatings and the valving are the biggest difference (again my opinion)
CrGuy2T wrote:
Do you prefer the kyb over the Showa 48mms? I agree the production forks now days are right on par. I actually liked my 48mm showas...
Do you prefer the kyb over the Showa 48mms? I agree the production forks now days are right on par. I actually liked my 48mm showas better than my A kit. Shock is a little bit different story. Those kashima hubs are sweet. I think the 02-07 cr's were before their time. To this day they still look modern and better than most bikes out there. I'm looking for an alluminum tank for 02-07 cr by the way of anyone knows where one is.
dbrunski125 wrote:
What did you not like about the shock?
I like my A kit shock better than the stock Showa shocks. Just seems to be more planted and really takes flat lands
And square edges super nice. Stock shock was good but seemed a bit lose of that make sense.
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 12/31/2015 10:44pm
12/31/2015 10:44pm
Tokyo_Tiddler wrote:
When you say "kit fork", since I believe you are using production CRF based upper and lower tubes, were you able to get a hold of...
When you say "kit fork", since I believe you are using production CRF based upper and lower tubes, were you able to get a hold of KYB B kit dampening rods/ internals or something?

On my 450 I used the production 2012 CRF450 KYB fork, Kashima/DLC coatings, CNC lugs, CNC fork caps, changed the oil lock collars, pressure springs, spring perches, low friction seals, etc... just about everything you could do to a stock fork.. and they are better, but just could not get the same feel as the works Showa's on my CR250 which has regular seals and no coatings on the lowers. I compared the internals with the Showa stock ones and while they look identical with the exception of the kashima coating on the works dampening rod, the works dampening units were much smoother which made me feel that is where much of the meaningful difference is besides the valving.

Also, on the rear shock, I heard many people were replacing the rebound on the 2015 shock with the old style on the lower clevis, claiming it worked better. I see that you preferred the 2015 configuration.

Looking forward to seeing the final build! Cool ride!

mike
blackdiamond wrote:
I am running the works free pistons, oil lock collars and spring perches in addition to the coatings.
Tokyo_Tiddler wrote:
I was going to get the free pistons, but after discussion with RG3...who suggested they were stronger, but much heavier, we decided to forego them since...
I was going to get the free pistons, but after discussion with RG3...who suggested they were stronger, but much heavier, we decided to forego them since the stock ones weren't prone to breaking and there was no real performance benefit.

Are those stock fork lugs that you machined to lighten them? Looks great.
I have heard of a lot of the stock ones ending up like the pic below, that was good enough for me.



In regards to the fork lugs, yes they are modified OEM lugs. I just wanted to make them look better and in the process they ended up being a little bit lighter but not by much.


blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 12/31/2015 10:59pm
12/31/2015 10:59pm
blackdiamond wrote:
Personally I think the KYB kit forks work better than the A Kit Showas, but that is just my opinion. I just sold a set of...
Personally I think the KYB kit forks work better than the A Kit Showas, but that is just my opinion. I just sold a set of A Kit when I started this build and if I thought they were better I would have put them on the bike. The production forks nowadays are much closer to kit forks than they used to be. The coatings and the valving are the biggest difference (again my opinion)
CrGuy2T wrote:
Do you prefer the kyb over the Showa 48mms? I agree the production forks now days are right on par. I actually liked my 48mm showas...
Do you prefer the kyb over the Showa 48mms? I agree the production forks now days are right on par. I actually liked my 48mm showas better than my A kit. Shock is a little bit different story. Those kashima hubs are sweet. I think the 02-07 cr's were before their time. To this day they still look modern and better than most bikes out there. I'm looking for an alluminum tank for 02-07 cr by the way of anyone knows where one is.
I think the KYB's are better under braking IMO. This guy can make your tank, check the CR500 conversion below. He builds sick swingarms for vintage bikes, minis, almost anything. If you want something sick made out of aluminum he can build it. Absolutely amazing fab and welding work.

http://www.klpracing.com







blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 12/31/2015 11:03pm
12/31/2015 11:03pm
brimx153 wrote:
man this is the best build ever . but how are you going to ride it .it s a work of art
I'm going to take some nice photos while it's all new and fresh and then I'm going to ride it like I stole it.
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 12/31/2015 11:05pm
12/31/2015 11:05pm
blackdiamond wrote:
Personally I think the KYB kit forks work better than the A Kit Showas, but that is just my opinion. I just sold a set of...
Personally I think the KYB kit forks work better than the A Kit Showas, but that is just my opinion. I just sold a set of A Kit when I started this build and if I thought they were better I would have put them on the bike. The production forks nowadays are much closer to kit forks than they used to be. The coatings and the valving are the biggest difference (again my opinion)
CrGuy2T wrote:
Do you prefer the kyb over the Showa 48mms? I agree the production forks now days are right on par. I actually liked my 48mm showas...
Do you prefer the kyb over the Showa 48mms? I agree the production forks now days are right on par. I actually liked my 48mm showas better than my A kit. Shock is a little bit different story. Those kashima hubs are sweet. I think the 02-07 cr's were before their time. To this day they still look modern and better than most bikes out there. I'm looking for an alluminum tank for 02-07 cr by the way of anyone knows where one is.
dbrunski125 wrote:
What did you not like about the shock?
The stock shock works great, just wanted to try something different and possibly improve a bit.
SouthwestMfg
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SouthwestMfg 1/1/2016 9:56am
1/1/2016 9:56am
Really nice work, awesome details and pic's.
FYI stainless steel and steel have the same density 7.86gm/cc i.e. they weigh the same. That's because stainless is simply steel with a Nickel content at or bove 10%.
Again this is really cool your sharing this, thanks !
brimx153
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brimx153 1/1/2016 10:04am
1/1/2016 10:04am
brimx153 wrote:
man this is the best build ever . but how are you going to ride it .it s a work of art
blackdiamond wrote:
I'm going to take some nice photos while it's all new and fresh and then I'm going to ride it like I stole it.
ha ha you dead right man ,thats what its for Smile
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 1/1/2016 11:24am
1/1/2016 11:24am
SouthwestMfg wrote:
Really nice work, awesome details and pic's. FYI stainless steel and steel have the same density 7.86gm/cc i.e. they weigh the same. That's because stainless is...
Really nice work, awesome details and pic's.
FYI stainless steel and steel have the same density 7.86gm/cc i.e. they weigh the same. That's because stainless is simply steel with a Nickel content at or bove 10%.
Again this is really cool your sharing this, thanks !
I disagree, according to the American Iron and Steel Institute 304 stainless is heavier than 4130 chromoly steel. See the chart below, the weight is listed in pounds per square inch.



Rooster
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Rooster 1/1/2016 12:12pm
1/1/2016 12:12pm
blackdiamond wrote:
I'm going to take some nice photos while it's all new and fresh and then I'm going to ride it like I stole it.
Please have a ton of shots done in a professional studio. The quality of this build deserves to be documented in a way that does justice to your efforts.
fulltime wrench 1/1/2016 12:30pm
1/1/2016 12:30pm Edited Date/Time 1/1/2016 12:33pm
blackdiamond wrote:
I disagree, according to the American Iron and Steel Institute 304 stainless is heavier than 4130 chromoly steel. See the chart below, the weight is listed...
I disagree, according to the American Iron and Steel Institute 304 stainless is heavier than 4130 chromoly steel. See the chart below, the weight is listed in pounds per square inch.



That table shows lbs per cubic inch, and the difference in weight is only .007lbs. That is less than half a gram.

But it is still great that you took the extra steps to improve the part.
ocscottie
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ocscottie 1/1/2016 12:49pm
1/1/2016 12:49pm
This thread needs even more Carbon Fiber and less people quoting posts with multiple pictures in it.

Amazing work!!
smezmx
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smezmx 1/1/2016 1:02pm
1/1/2016 1:02pm
CrGuy2T wrote:
Do you prefer the kyb over the Showa 48mms? I agree the production forks now days are right on par. I actually liked my 48mm showas...
Do you prefer the kyb over the Showa 48mms? I agree the production forks now days are right on par. I actually liked my 48mm showas better than my A kit. Shock is a little bit different story. Those kashima hubs are sweet. I think the 02-07 cr's were before their time. To this day they still look modern and better than most bikes out there. I'm looking for an alluminum tank for 02-07 cr by the way of anyone knows where one is.
http://www.gmxradiators.co.uk/cgi-bin/sitewise.pl?act=sect&sterms=&s=52…
Underground 1/1/2016 1:05pm
1/1/2016 1:05pm
ocscottie wrote:
This thread needs even more Carbon Fiber and less people quoting posts with multiple pictures in it.

Amazing work!!
This

Pit Row

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philG
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philG 1/1/2016 1:13pm
1/1/2016 1:13pm
blackdiamond wrote:
I disagree, according to the American Iron and Steel Institute 304 stainless is heavier than 4130 chromoly steel. See the chart below, the weight is listed...
I disagree, according to the American Iron and Steel Institute 304 stainless is heavier than 4130 chromoly steel. See the chart below, the weight is listed in pounds per square inch.



fulltime wrench wrote:
That table shows lbs per cubic inch, and the difference in weight is only .007lbs. That is less than half a gram. But it is still...
That table shows lbs per cubic inch, and the difference in weight is only .007lbs. That is less than half a gram.

But it is still great that you took the extra steps to improve the part.
The point you are missing here is the UTS of 4130 is 2.5 times that of 304, so you dont need as much of it for the same strength part, which is where the saving comes from.

Underground 1/1/2016 1:28pm
1/1/2016 1:28pm
ocscottie wrote:
This thread needs even more Carbon Fiber and less people quoting posts with multiple pictures in it.

Amazing work!!
Underground wrote:
This
I don't think some people realize what this is for.


Underground 1/1/2016 1:29pm
1/1/2016 1:29pm Edited Date/Time 1/1/2016 1:32pm
Underground wrote:
I don't think some people realize what this is for. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2016/01/01/117796/s1200_Capture.jpg[/img]
I don't think some people realize what this is for.


Actually, I do think some people ....
Sorry for the derail, was getting tired of scrolling through those caliper pics
ocscottie
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ocscottie 1/1/2016 1:33pm
1/1/2016 1:33pm
the "quote last reply only" box is one of my bigger pet peeves about this board, some people just dont get it Blink
fulltime wrench 1/1/2016 1:37pm
1/1/2016 1:37pm Edited Date/Time 1/1/2016 2:13pm
philG wrote:
The point you are missing here is the UTS of 4130 is 2.5 times that of 304, so you dont need as much of it for...
The point you are missing here is the UTS of 4130 is 2.5 times that of 304, so you dont need as much of it for the same strength part, which is where the saving comes from.

No one questioned strength vs. mass.
philG
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philG 1/1/2016 1:38pm
1/1/2016 1:38pm
ocscottie wrote:
the "quote last reply only" box is one of my bigger pet peeves about this board, some people just dont get it Blink
on most other forums you have to 'multi quote ' which is a royal PITA , which is why nobody does it , and you dont get multiple copies.
holeshot413
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holeshot413 1/1/2016 1:41pm
1/1/2016 1:41pm
brimx153 wrote:
man this is the best build ever . but how are you going to ride it .it s a work of art
blackdiamond wrote:
I'm going to take some nice photos while it's all new and fresh and then I'm going to ride it like I stole it.
so cool this thread is and that youre going to ride it!
Underground 1/1/2016 1:58pm
1/1/2016 1:58pm
philG wrote:
The point you are missing here is the UTS of 4130 is 2.5 times that of 304, so you dont need as much of it for...
The point you are missing here is the UTS of 4130 is 2.5 times that of 304, so you dont need as much of it for the same strength part, which is where the saving comes from.

But the ultimate deciding factor is usually $$$$$, so mild carbon steel wins
philG
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philG 1/1/2016 3:04pm
1/1/2016 3:04pm
philG wrote:
The point you are missing here is the UTS of 4130 is 2.5 times that of 304, so you dont need as much of it for...
The point you are missing here is the UTS of 4130 is 2.5 times that of 304, so you dont need as much of it for the same strength part, which is where the saving comes from.

Underground wrote:
But the ultimate deciding factor is usually $$$$$, so mild carbon steel wins
Yes, but its not the cost of the raw thats the issue, its the cost of machining it ..

This build doesnt look like its struggling for $$$

charley586 1/1/2016 4:43pm
1/1/2016 4:43pm
blackdiamond wrote:
Here are a few of the carbon fiber parts I just finished fabricating. The case saver I made from scratch from a sheet of 5mm carbon...
Here are a few of the carbon fiber parts I just finished fabricating. The case saver I made from scratch from a sheet of 5mm carbon plate. The silencer is custom as well, made to OEM specs in regards to the core diameter and length. I actually cut the brackets out of a spare PC silencer I had laying around and modified them to be riveted to the carbon/kevlar tube before having them black anodized. Turned out pretty sweet. The chain guide is a slightly modified Lightspeed piece.











any details on building a silencer like this? It would fit well my 250AF.

nice works
Tokyo_Tiddler 1/1/2016 7:05pm
1/1/2016 7:05pm Edited Date/Time 1/2/2016 12:38pm
The Kashima coated hubs may not hold up well. The kashima process creates a very hard thin surface and when small rocks hit it, it flakes off in big chunks.. almost shatters the brittle surface. That is why I covered my forks almost completely in clear vinyl that they use for covering cars. Kashima is great for sliding parts in terms of wear greater factor and lower friction. Not so good for external protection of the part.
1
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 1/2/2016 2:28am
1/2/2016 2:28am
blackdiamond wrote:
Here are a few of the carbon fiber parts I just finished fabricating. The case saver I made from scratch from a sheet of 5mm carbon...
Here are a few of the carbon fiber parts I just finished fabricating. The case saver I made from scratch from a sheet of 5mm carbon plate. The silencer is custom as well, made to OEM specs in regards to the core diameter and length. I actually cut the brackets out of a spare PC silencer I had laying around and modified them to be riveted to the carbon/kevlar tube before having them black anodized. Turned out pretty sweet. The chain guide is a slightly modified Lightspeed piece.











charley586 wrote:
any details on building a silencer like this? It would fit well my 250AF.

nice works
The silencer is basically a collaboration of parts from 3 different exhaust systems, combining the chosen parts of each. Truth be told, not really worth the brain damage. Just buy a FULL length silencer that has the same core diameter as the OEM and it will work killer (this is my opinion) Short silencers = short powerbands and less over-rev.

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