Fuel Spray - fuel overheating. Prevention must start NOW !!

felpro
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Rouse Hill AU
Edited Date/Time 9/7/2021 11:54am
Two riders have had fuel spray on them in two consecutive races. I don't recall hearing about this before.

Is it the tanks being closer to heat sources? Thinner tank materials? The heat? All the above?

Not the hottest races ever. The perfect storm could occur soon. Someone could be seriously injured or killed at a race.

Whatever it is, something urgent needs to be done to make sure we are not discussing a tragedy real soon.

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9/5/2021 4:50am
As I asked in another thread, this doesn’t seem to happen in Europe even if they are allowed to run prototype bikes here. Maybe I’m just ignorant of issues here or they could have a look at the differences
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SilverSpurs
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Sarasota, FL US
9/5/2021 5:03am
Maybe tighten fuel caps correctly and ensure that vent lines are not blocked and routed correctly.

A requirement for low vapour pressure fuel might help and mechanics checking that aftermarket
exhaust pipes are not fuel tank/line/injector heaters.

So sensible mechanical preparation. It gets hot in summer.
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soggy
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9/5/2021 5:07am
felpro wrote:
Two riders have had fuel spray on them in two consecutive races. I don't recall hearing about this before. Is it the tanks being closer to...
Two riders have had fuel spray on them in two consecutive races. I don't recall hearing about this before.

Is it the tanks being closer to heat sources? Thinner tank materials? The heat? All the above?

Not the hottest races ever. The perfect storm could occur soon. Someone could be seriously injured or killed at a race.

Whatever it is, something urgent needs to be done to make sure we are not discussing a tragedy real soon.

Easy tiger.
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The Shop

Sawfish
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9/5/2021 7:24am
I usually put that foil looking cooling tape on the underside of my tank. Never had fuel boil and my crf runs HOT here in Las Vegas.
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xrmark
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9/5/2021 7:26am
It happened to Webb at a supercross when he was on 250’s. Nothing new.
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Yeti831
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UT US
9/5/2021 8:31am
Sawfish wrote:
I usually put that foil looking cooling tape on the underside of my tank. Never had fuel boil and my crf runs HOT here in Las...
I usually put that foil looking cooling tape on the underside of my tank. Never had fuel boil and my crf runs HOT here in Las Vegas.
I’ve honestly been debating doing that.

When it got a hair over 100 in Ogden and SLC, my bike was getting burbles like it was low fuel but still had half a tank.

Only happened once, but still debating it.
LungButter
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Yellow Pine, ID US
9/5/2021 9:10am
Sawfish wrote:
I usually put that foil looking cooling tape on the underside of my tank. Never had fuel boil and my crf runs HOT here in Las...
I usually put that foil looking cooling tape on the underside of my tank. Never had fuel boil and my crf runs HOT here in Las Vegas.
Where is a good place to buy it?

Some of the oversize tanks on a couple of my bikes damn near touch the head, I might throw some on just for peace of mind. Last thing I need is gas spaying out while my bike is overheating on some hillside in 100 degree July weather.
Johnny Depp
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Buda, TX US
9/5/2021 9:15am
E-bikes would only have a battery fire... You are going to enjoy this...

AJ565
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9/5/2021 10:09am
People had to know that boiling fuel was going to become more common. The hot rod industry went through this years ago when fuel injection swaps started to become a thing. Big fuel pumps plus a return style fuel system = fuel tanks boiling after 30-40 miles. In a car tho the fuel would boil in the lines and cause it to stall out and not restart until it cooled. A fuel pump in a tank that’s sitting on top of a hot 4 stroke with a low boil temp fuel is a bad combo with very limited ways to deal with it. Heat tapes are only going to do so much. A shield with an air gap would work much better, but how with as tight as things are packed in?
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dkurtd
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TN US
9/5/2021 10:51am Edited Date/Time 9/5/2021 7:31pm
Boiling fuel (vapor lock) has been around since the early days of motoring. I believe the term used is Reid Vapor Pressure. Seeing how VP appears to be the major race fuel used then maybe they could look at raising the vapor point, or at least blending a higher vapor point fuel for higher temp riding conditions. Hell, the EPA regulates fuel blends for winter and summer (RVP changes), and does so without big changes in octane so I don't know why VP couldn't do the same.

The old car guys have figured out how the keep their Model "A"s from vapor locking by adding heavier weight hydrocarbons such as kerosene or stove oil to the fuel.


Edit: Here's a pretty good article on RVP and also distillation curve.
https://www.sunocoracefuels.com/tech-article/rvp-pressure-vapor

I would also point out on VP's website you can see the RVP if you download the spec sheets for the specific fuel.

After doing a little more research, VP has two fuels that is used by the Pro's: MR Pro 6 Reg with a RVP 11.01 and a high temp version which is MR Pro 6 HT that has a RVP of 9.81. So VP has created a better high temp fuel.
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Sawfish
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9/5/2021 11:25am
Sawfish wrote:
I usually put that foil looking cooling tape on the underside of my tank. Never had fuel boil and my crf runs HOT here in Las...
I usually put that foil looking cooling tape on the underside of my tank. Never had fuel boil and my crf runs HOT here in Las Vegas.
LungButter wrote:
Where is a good place to buy it? Some of the oversize tanks on a couple of my bikes damn near touch the head, I might...
Where is a good place to buy it?

Some of the oversize tanks on a couple of my bikes damn near touch the head, I might throw some on just for peace of mind. Last thing I need is gas spaying out while my bike is overheating on some hillside in 100 degree July weather.
felpro
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Rouse Hill AU
9/5/2021 3:55pm Edited Date/Time 9/5/2021 3:56pm
It's an awareness thing, and a call to be proactive. Imagine how close Levi Kitchen's and Rick Elzinga's bike would have been to igniting. Where I race, in off road cars etc, there are fire extinguishers everywhere around the track as well as two in an on the car. We wear clothing with fire protection.

MX racing fires are not on anyones (mostly) mind. These two incidents take very little imagination to suggest how bad the next fuel spray might end up. It just needs some awareness and what ever preventative measures can be taken at a level of mechanics looking out fo their rider or the scrutineers doing whatever checks they would need to.

It's worth some effort.
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BikePilot
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Golden, CO US
9/5/2021 4:58pm
How is boiling fuel causing vent lines to pop off? Is there a 1 way valve on the end of the vent line? I mostly run two strokes and am curious. I would have thought vapors would just vent out the fuel cap vent line without any drama.
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Brent
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Party in Temecula, CA US
9/5/2021 5:15pm
BikePilot wrote:
How is boiling fuel causing vent lines to pop off? Is there a 1 way valve on the end of the vent line? I mostly run...
How is boiling fuel causing vent lines to pop off? Is there a 1 way valve on the end of the vent line? I mostly run two strokes and am curious. I would have thought vapors would just vent out the fuel cap vent line without any drama.
I have learned a lot about this subject since yesterday, there are a few factors:

(1) High temperatures. If the air is hot, it is not cooling the radiators down much;

(2) Volatile fuel. VP MR pro 6, the fuel we are using in AMA racing is quite unstable in temps above 95 F;

(3) engine heat - Heat from the motor and exhaust radiate upward into the plastic fuel tank, causing the fuel to boil.

When a couple of those thing occur, then the fuel boils, the tank pressurizes like a pressure cooker under heat, and it can blow the hose right off the fuel cap. It happened yesterday to my rider at Fox raceway, and the hot fuel was squirting him in the face and mouth.

He said it was very hot when it went into his mouth an nose, confirming the boiling.
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DonM
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US
9/5/2021 5:49pm
This issue has been around for a while but for the most part has been handled by the race teams, engine builders and fuel suppliers. I have not heard officially that Kitchen had a fuel boiling issue but its possible…the most famous one was Dungey at Texas it ended up costing him the championship…
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mxtech1
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Galesburg, IL US
9/5/2021 6:16pm
felpro wrote:
It's an awareness thing, and a call to be proactive. Imagine how close Levi Kitchen's and Rick Elzinga's bike would have been to igniting. Where I...
It's an awareness thing, and a call to be proactive. Imagine how close Levi Kitchen's and Rick Elzinga's bike would have been to igniting. Where I race, in off road cars etc, there are fire extinguishers everywhere around the track as well as two in an on the car. We wear clothing with fire protection.

MX racing fires are not on anyones (mostly) mind. These two incidents take very little imagination to suggest how bad the next fuel spray might end up. It just needs some awareness and what ever preventative measures can be taken at a level of mechanics looking out fo their rider or the scrutineers doing whatever checks they would need to.

It's worth some effort.
After thinking on this for awhile, I tend to agree with you.

Let’s say a rider gets sprayed with gas and his gear gets fairly saturated, then he falls down in a corner or goes over the bars and ends up underneath the bike. What if he ends up under the header or mid-pipe with the fuel soaked gear contacting the pipe? Is it combustible? How fast does gear burn? Will it melt into the riders skin? How fast could a fire extinguisher be accessed if it happened?

At first I thought all this was pretty silly, but I don’t want it to become one of those deals where it takes a huge avoidable mistake where someone gets burned before rules are changed. A small amount of proactive preparation could go a long way in keeping riders safe.

1) Fuel tank vent hoses must have a mechanical connection (worm or pinch clamp) where the tube pushes onto the tank breather to prevent disconnection during pressure increase.
2) Every flagger station on the track should have at least one functioning water fire extinguisher and the flagger should be trained in PASS
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BikePilot
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Golden, CO US
9/5/2021 6:35pm
Why not vent the tank to the atmosphere like a two stroke so it doesn’t build up pressure? I realize boiling fuel may still cause issues with running well, but no fires or fuel in the eyes/mouth or crotch.
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TerryB
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Cambridge, MN US
9/5/2021 7:09pm
I think the issue falls squarely in the OEM's lap. Fuel tank locations need to be re-thought, with shielding. No small order, but better than being sued...
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PNWRider
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Stanwood, WA US
9/5/2021 8:04pm
BikePilot wrote:
Why not vent the tank to the atmosphere like a two stroke so it doesn’t build up pressure? I realize boiling fuel may still cause issues...
Why not vent the tank to the atmosphere like a two stroke so it doesn’t build up pressure? I realize boiling fuel may still cause issues with running well, but no fires or fuel in the eyes/mouth or crotch.
They are vented to atmosphere just like a two-stroke, but when fuel boils it can build more pressure than the vent can relieve.
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SilverSpurs
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9/5/2021 9:24pm Edited Date/Time 9/6/2021 8:07am
Fuels can have dozens of different ingredients with boiling points at vastly different temps.
Larger diameter vent lines leading to a small catch tank baffled with fuel foam, and a vent safely exited behind the rider should be minimum prep for hot days.
The expensive, trick looking gold heat shielding is very helpful for under tank but there are many high tech thin insulation products for turbocharger heat management.
I've done this for years on race cars.
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CPR
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9/6/2021 12:08am
Not really applicable to moto, but we used to run ‘cool cans’ on race cars- an aluminium canister which the fuel line passes through and inside the canister are coils of fuel line. Before a race you’d fill the canister with dry ice.
No vapour locks and cooler fuel makes more hp. Crude but effective.
BogDogPenny
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La Habra, CA US
9/6/2021 8:00am
blusmbl wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/09/05/508804/s1200_O7ogI.jpg[/img]

This was my screen saver for a while. The looks on the other riders faces. Scary
sumdood
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9/6/2021 9:36am
An aluminum gas cap with a 90 degree shaped fitting to attach the vent hose to seems like an easy cost effective fix.
At least if the vent hose blew off it would blow off to the side rather than straight up onto the rider.
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RudyRayMo
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AL US
9/6/2021 10:33am
Could always be worse, imagine a methanol fire in your pants.
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gs317
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9/6/2021 9:02pm
BikePilot wrote:
Why not vent the tank to the atmosphere like a two stroke so it doesn’t build up pressure? I realize boiling fuel may still cause issues...
Why not vent the tank to the atmosphere like a two stroke so it doesn’t build up pressure? I realize boiling fuel may still cause issues with running well, but no fires or fuel in the eyes/mouth or crotch.
they do vent to atmosphere as far as im aware, but a 4 stroke also builds to a higher temp than 2 strokes and can heat their own tanks faster. Then the rate at which the fuel absorbs heat and starts to boil and build pressure is at a faster rate than the small tube venting to atmosphere can handle. Eventually its enough pressure to blow the tube off altogether. Having a large diameter, keeping the fuel cooler and making the tube a mechanical connector instead of just a slip on piece would help prevent this.
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Bruce372
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US
9/6/2021 9:44pm Edited Date/Time 9/6/2021 9:46pm
Good lord, it's not the design of the motorcycles, it's extreme use and conditions lol.

If it was a problem with design, half the field would have had the same issue.
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