Frame welding: which alloys?

cwtoyota
Profile picture for user cwtoyota
Posts
1922
Joined
3/11/2013
Location
Tacoma, WA US
cwtoyota
Edited Date/Time 8/9/2015 6:11am
What aluminum alloys are used in the Yamaha frame?

I am aware that these bikes consist of extrusions, castings, forgings plus a filler rod or wire in the welds.

If you have definite specific information about which alloys are used (especially on the castings and filler wire/rod) I'd be very appreciative.

If you've welded on a modern aluminum motocross frame, which welding filler material have been using?
|
CamP
Profile picture for user CamP
Posts
6828
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Colleyville, TX US
CamP 8/7/2015 6:57am
8/7/2015 6:57am
A friend of mine has been the go to guy for Honda's Goldwing frame welding recalls in North Texas. He is an expert with Japanese aluminum frame welding. The alloys are unique to Japan, but I'll see if I can find out which rod he recommends.
rallendude
Profile picture for user rallendude
Posts
2200
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
Adger, AL US
rallendude 8/7/2015 7:49am
8/7/2015 7:49am
Keep in mind that aluminum almost always needs to be heat treated after welding. It's not like steel where the filler is harder/stronger than the parent metal. Welded aluminum is almost always weaker than before welding.
CamP
Profile picture for user CamP
Posts
6828
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Colleyville, TX US
CamP 8/7/2015 9:43am
8/7/2015 9:43am
Talked to my friend and the aluminum is like weldable 7000 series. Use 5356 filler rod.

The welds will harden through natural aging within 2-3 weeks. No heat treating is required.
cwtoyota
Profile picture for user cwtoyota
Posts
1922
Joined
3/11/2013
Location
Tacoma, WA US
cwtoyota 8/7/2015 12:10pm
8/7/2015 12:10pm
CamP wrote:
Talked to my friend and the aluminum is like weldable 7000 series. Use 5356 filler rod. The welds will harden through natural aging within 2-3 weeks...
Talked to my friend and the aluminum is like weldable 7000 series. Use 5356 filler rod.

The welds will harden through natural aging within 2-3 weeks. No heat treating is required.
Thanks a ton and tell your friend thanks as well!

I did the repair with 5356 and straight argon gas. It welded up fairly easy and looks very good.

The Shop

See All »
stillwelding
Profile picture for user stillwelding
Posts
3189
Joined
1/22/2007
Location
Santa Clarita, CA US
stillwelding 8/7/2015 5:10pm
8/7/2015 5:10pm
CamP wrote:
Talked to my friend and the aluminum is like weldable 7000 series. Use 5356 filler rod. The welds will harden through natural aging within 2-3 weeks...
Talked to my friend and the aluminum is like weldable 7000 series. Use 5356 filler rod.

The welds will harden through natural aging within 2-3 weeks. No heat treating is required.
cwtoyota wrote:
Thanks a ton and tell your friend thanks as well! I did the repair with 5356 and straight argon gas. It welded up fairly easy and...
Thanks a ton and tell your friend thanks as well!

I did the repair with 5356 and straight argon gas. It welded up fairly easy and looks very good.
Where did you weld on the frame?
SmokinJoe439 8/7/2015 11:22pm
8/7/2015 11:22pm
Hey cw can you help me out maybe I got from a friend a wrecked vfr800 and part of the head tube casting section. Wondering if you could weld it up for me, it broke a hole in the cast section on the front side.

It's easily a quarter size hole it used to have a cast in like square for the head stay mount for the lights s speedo.
cwtoyota
Profile picture for user cwtoyota
Posts
1922
Joined
3/11/2013
Location
Tacoma, WA US
cwtoyota 8/8/2015 12:37am
8/8/2015 12:37am Edited Date/Time 8/8/2015 12:39am
SmokinJoe439 wrote:
Hey cw can you help me out maybe I got from a friend a wrecked vfr800 and part of the head tube casting section. Wondering if...
Hey cw can you help me out maybe I got from a friend a wrecked vfr800 and part of the head tube casting section. Wondering if you could weld it up for me, it broke a hole in the cast section on the front side.

It's easily a quarter size hole it used to have a cast in like square for the head stay mount for the lights s speedo.
Joe, I can probably help you. I'll PM my number. Get some pics of the area you want welded and send them over to me.

Stillwelding, I had a subframe mount boss crack off... Right through the threaded hole. Rather than try to weld the small piece back on I cut it flat with some carbide and built the area back up a little oversized. After some careful measuring, marking and squaring everything up I drilled / tapped a new hole.

Here's a pic. It looks crooked, but that's just an illusion from the camera.




stillwelding
Profile picture for user stillwelding
Posts
3189
Joined
1/22/2007
Location
Santa Clarita, CA US
stillwelding 8/8/2015 10:26am
8/8/2015 10:26am
That looks great. It is only a sub-frame mount, and those aluminum frames are over built anyway. I believe the 5356 for 7005 material was developed by the Japanese for the use on mountain bike frames. It is , in layman's terms, self heat treating alloy, that allows for the use of the weldment in the as welded condition as opposed to say a 6061 welded frame, which would require a post weld heat treatment to bring it back to it's pre-welded condition/hardness. This use of the 7005 aluminum saves loads of money/time for the manufacturer, while giving, as good or better performance than post weld, heat treated 6061. IMO.
cwtoyota
Profile picture for user cwtoyota
Posts
1922
Joined
3/11/2013
Location
Tacoma, WA US
cwtoyota 8/8/2015 10:54am
8/8/2015 10:54am
Thanks, I am optimistic about the weld strength and knowing I used the correct filler alloy sure helps with that.

I remember way back in high school when the 1997 Honda CR250 came out that it was a 7000 series alloy, but I never knew which.
keeptwostrokesalive 8/8/2015 10:58am
8/8/2015 10:58am
I had a block of aluminum welded on to my yz250 frame to be used as a new pipe bracket after the bracket snapped off. Not sure what kind of aluminum it was but I took it to an air conditioning store that had an experienced aluminum welder. 3 years later and its still holding strong
cwtoyota
Profile picture for user cwtoyota
Posts
1922
Joined
3/11/2013
Location
Tacoma, WA US
cwtoyota 8/8/2015 3:23pm
8/8/2015 3:23pm
keeptwostrokesalive wrote:
I had a block of aluminum welded on to my yz250 frame to be used as a new pipe bracket after the bracket snapped off. Not...
I had a block of aluminum welded on to my yz250 frame to be used as a new pipe bracket after the bracket snapped off. Not sure what kind of aluminum it was but I took it to an air conditioning store that had an experienced aluminum welder. 3 years later and its still holding strong
Was that the lower/front mount near the water pump, or the upper/rear near the kick-starter?

The steel threaded insert came out of the front lower pipe mount on my 2010 YZ250, I think it's a common issue due to vibration. As a repair, I currently use a sheet metal spring-clip nut on the original bracket since the thin aluminum bracket was still intact.
SmokinJoe439 8/8/2015 7:48pm
8/8/2015 7:48pm
Not sure how to get pm on here sent you one on tt.

Some pics of the broken area











What it's supposed to look like non broken





JM485
Profile picture for user JM485
Posts
5398
Joined
10/1/2013
Location
Davis, CA US
JM485 8/8/2015 7:58pm
8/8/2015 7:58pm
I have a quick question about heat treatment hopefully someone can clear up. As I understand it heat treating changes the metal on the molecular level by allowing the grains to regrow and allows the atoms to assume their original bond lengths, or even grow the grains larger than before they were before they were disrupted by rolling, machining, etc. My question is why is this necessary after welding an aluminum frame, I assume it is to prevent cracking on either side of the weld caused by brittle materials, which the heat treatment would allow to become ductile again? Wouldn't this also effect the rest of the frame as well? Thanks for any info, I know a little bit about the theory (stress-stain curves and such) but would like to learn a bit more about how it is used in practice.
stillwelding
Profile picture for user stillwelding
Posts
3189
Joined
1/22/2007
Location
Santa Clarita, CA US
stillwelding 8/8/2015 9:06pm
8/8/2015 9:06pm
SmokinJoe439 wrote:
Not sure how to get pm on here sent you one on tt. Some pics of the broken area [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/08/08/100576/s1200_20150808_193716.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/08/08/100577/s1200_20150808_193744.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/08/08/100578/s1200_20150808_193812.jpg[/img] What it's supposed to...
Not sure how to get pm on here sent you one on tt.

Some pics of the broken area











What it's supposed to look like non broken





A skilled guy should be able to build that area up, and using a small right angle grinder, a pencil grinder, drill, etc. and build the bosses back up for you. That looks like a 2 or 3 hour job, to me. I do some restoration work on Harley heads and they turn out nice.

stillwelding
Profile picture for user stillwelding
Posts
3189
Joined
1/22/2007
Location
Santa Clarita, CA US
stillwelding 8/8/2015 9:25pm
8/8/2015 9:25pm










Where the broken fins are, you have to remove them completely, sometimes all the way to the cylinder, and build them out, stringer by stringer. Stopping and grinding and filing as necessary.

cwtoyota
Profile picture for user cwtoyota
Posts
1922
Joined
3/11/2013
Location
Tacoma, WA US
cwtoyota 8/9/2015 2:26am
8/9/2015 2:26am Edited Date/Time 8/9/2015 2:38am
stillwelding wrote:
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/To-the-Point-Heat-Treating-Aluminum-Frames…

Try going to the "Explain the artificial aging process". This is for 6000 series aluminum.
JM485 wrote:
Thanks, much appreciated!
Nice looking work dude.

*edit* Oops. looks like I quoted the post with your link, but I meant to quote your fine work on that cylinder head.

Pit Row

See All »
Bultaco
Profile picture for user Bultaco
Posts
1727
Joined
1/20/2014
Location
Planet, VT US
Bultaco 8/9/2015 3:20am
8/9/2015 3:20am
Building up and filing fins to look like original, requires some serious patience. That is impressive.
keeptwostrokesalive 8/9/2015 6:11am
8/9/2015 6:11am
keeptwostrokesalive wrote:
I had a block of aluminum welded on to my yz250 frame to be used as a new pipe bracket after the bracket snapped off. Not...
I had a block of aluminum welded on to my yz250 frame to be used as a new pipe bracket after the bracket snapped off. Not sure what kind of aluminum it was but I took it to an air conditioning store that had an experienced aluminum welder. 3 years later and its still holding strong
cwtoyota wrote:
Was that the lower/front mount near the water pump, or the upper/rear near the kick-starter? The steel threaded insert came out of the front lower pipe...
Was that the lower/front mount near the water pump, or the upper/rear near the kick-starter?

The steel threaded insert came out of the front lower pipe mount on my 2010 YZ250, I think it's a common issue due to vibration. As a repair, I currently use a sheet metal spring-clip nut on the original bracket since the thin aluminum bracket was still intact.
It was the lower mount right below the water pump, the bracket that is attached directly to the frame. We found a perfect shaped hollow block of aluminum and had them weld it directly to the frame. Then we drilled a hole in the new aluminum block and made a make shift bracket that works perfect!

Post a reply to: Frame welding: which alloys?