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Edited Date/Time
8/14/2012 12:38pm
Four-Stroke Dirtbikes: The New Reality—By Kevin Cameron
By Kevin Cameron
Imagine a little piece titled “Affording Your New Four-Stroke Motocross Bike.” It would cover such topics as being born a Saudi prince or maybe a yachtsman, techniques for quickly acquiring large amounts of other people’s money, such as fraud, bank robbery, etc., and non-violent financing techniques of the kind used for years by Team Obsolete’s Robert Iannucci, who has said he never spent a dime of his own money on racing.
It would also include a cheerful explanation of how we got into this mess: “Back in the beginning, the idea of four-stroke MX machines sounded hot to everyone, because at that time, our ideas about four-stroke MXers had been conditioned by Honda’s many super-durable XLs—the bikes we bought for our kids and kept up at the lake, which now, 25 years later, are still starting and running like trains every summer without so much as an oil change.
“How little we knew! When the new MXers arrived, we loved our first rides—the grunt, the sound, the revs. But then came the day when someone (was it Dad, or was it Junior?) didn’t get the valve clearance exactly right or the adjusters tight or something. Anyway, the way the dealer told it, the valve was hitting the seat pretty hard. Then, a valve seat ring must have come loose. After a while, it got kicked up on the edge of its counterbore and held the valve open. And then the piston beat on it pretty good, wrecking the piston, rod, cylinder, head, valves, cam—well, it wrecked everything. The charge at the bottom of the usual ‘get running’ work order was $3500, give or take a few good lunches.
“Dad was a little quiet when he saw that bill, but, well, the family that races together, stays together. Then it happened again. I’m a sophomore in college now, and I’ve forgotten all about motocross because an accounting degree is hard work. Dad said college would save us a bunch of money over motocross. That was after he’d stopped shouting and ranting that, “Who did we think he was, Earl Hayden or something?” Anyway, it sure was fun while it lasted.”
April 5, 2011
http://www.cycleworld.com/2011/04/05/four-stroke-dirtbikes-the-new-real…
By Kevin Cameron
Imagine a little piece titled “Affording Your New Four-Stroke Motocross Bike.” It would cover such topics as being born a Saudi prince or maybe a yachtsman, techniques for quickly acquiring large amounts of other people’s money, such as fraud, bank robbery, etc., and non-violent financing techniques of the kind used for years by Team Obsolete’s Robert Iannucci, who has said he never spent a dime of his own money on racing.
It would also include a cheerful explanation of how we got into this mess: “Back in the beginning, the idea of four-stroke MX machines sounded hot to everyone, because at that time, our ideas about four-stroke MXers had been conditioned by Honda’s many super-durable XLs—the bikes we bought for our kids and kept up at the lake, which now, 25 years later, are still starting and running like trains every summer without so much as an oil change.
“How little we knew! When the new MXers arrived, we loved our first rides—the grunt, the sound, the revs. But then came the day when someone (was it Dad, or was it Junior?) didn’t get the valve clearance exactly right or the adjusters tight or something. Anyway, the way the dealer told it, the valve was hitting the seat pretty hard. Then, a valve seat ring must have come loose. After a while, it got kicked up on the edge of its counterbore and held the valve open. And then the piston beat on it pretty good, wrecking the piston, rod, cylinder, head, valves, cam—well, it wrecked everything. The charge at the bottom of the usual ‘get running’ work order was $3500, give or take a few good lunches.
“Dad was a little quiet when he saw that bill, but, well, the family that races together, stays together. Then it happened again. I’m a sophomore in college now, and I’ve forgotten all about motocross because an accounting degree is hard work. Dad said college would save us a bunch of money over motocross. That was after he’d stopped shouting and ranting that, “Who did we think he was, Earl Hayden or something?” Anyway, it sure was fun while it lasted.”
April 5, 2011
http://www.cycleworld.com/2011/04/05/four-stroke-dirtbikes-the-new-real…
I like your sig by the way
But now I just moto during practice days for fun and to get some exercise. I don't stay in shape, I no longer care how long or fast I go, I just ride for the fun of it. I sold my 450 last fall and bought a 125, and I'm loving it. I'm sure I'll buy another 450 or 250 4 stroke, I like to change it up to keep it fresh. Now I'm a bonified weekend practice track warrior, and so are about 95% of the guys out there. Some take it more seriously than others, but there's maybe 2 guys in our area that make a living at it.
Unfourtanetly, If you are one of them, you MUST ride a 4 stroke. If you think not, you are an idiot, period. A ridiculously fast, good handling, expensive, wallet breaking 4 stroke is the only way to go racing at the professional level. If you aren't one of them, you have a choice. If you want the 2 stroke, ride it. If you want the 4 stroke, ride it.
Usually, spot on, with what he talks about.
But he's wrong as can be with the issue on how we got here.
There was no floodgate to buy the bathtubs.
The factories took it upon themselves to jam this shit down our throats.
Henry rode the 400 for 2 years before anyone could even get one.
Then they ran the 4stroke Nationals, with maybe 10 guys on the gate,
with retired racers that prob needed the money.
It was like the WMA, nobody paid any attention.
We were watching McGrath and company riding what was, and may still be, the baddest 250 ever known to man.
But then Ricky went to the 4, he saw you can't beat the cheater rule, and started kicking Stews ass pretty good.
When James made the statement "I need a four stroke", (along with the extra 200ccs), that was it,
the lemmings followed.
The factories got their way.
So. in review, there was no wholesale clamor to run out and buy these machines.
The factories wanted them, they provided them, they promoted them and finally, in essence, outlawed them
by pressuring the AMA to change the rules.
If anyone is to blame for this mess, it's the factories, pure and simple.
We here in the States ride what the Japanese want us to ride, don't think any different.
The Shop
You can still buy them, you just can't run them straight up against the 4s in AMA Pro Racing.
You know, the racing everyone follows, and want's to emulate.
Hard to follow for some, I know, but that's the reality.
"Why" do most 4T's fail?
LACK of Maintaining them properly...PERIOD (Hell, the article even ADMITS that!)
Also, I can tell you that a CRF450X is about as cheap to own as ANY dirt-bike...Motors last FOREVER (Usually wear 5th gear dogs wear out/shift forks die before the top end if YOU TAKE CARE OF IT!). Parts are EVERYWHERE for an R/X. Parts are CHEAP. Fuel is CHEAP...straight outta the PUMP...IN MEXICO! Tires are CHEAP...18"...anyone? Plastic is CHEAP!
I see the X as the new "KDX"...at-least...that's where it fit sinto my life.
As to Cameron: I remember him bitching about those New-Fangled Cylinder Coatings being too Fragile and Expensive...on 2 strokes...back in the day.
And nothing was jammed down our throat, we were fed what we eagerly tried to cram in our mouth and asked for.
Since its extremely obvious that the overwhelming majority of the 2 stroke taliban are paycheck receivers, let me, as a 22 year business owner, explain how the world actually works. You sell/make/build what the vast majority want. If you make motorcycles and in 2004 you sell your complete run of 4 strokes in 30 days and your run of 2 strokes it takes 6 months, then in 2005 you double your 4 stroke production run and leave your 2 strokes the same, and in the 2 runs on 4 strokes (oct and dec for honda) you have a complete sell thru and typically its buys before the bike is even built and you sell less than half your two strokes, then in 2006 you up your 4 stroke production run again and and the same thing happens.... plus you have half your 05 2 strokes left? You give the people what they pay for because if they arent buying your product, now get ready, this is an advanced concept but, you arent creating income! And since you have workers to pay, and shareholders, the dollar will always talk.
right about here we will hear about the honda conspiracy, and how mxa says..... yamaha opened the doors, honda suz ktm ran with it, and mxa where telling you back in 02 that if you didnt buy a 4 stroke you were an idiot.
nostalgia. look it up. this is what fuels the 2 stroke taliban.
Even the last few years racing week in and out, Worcs and moto, 450s, 250s, run 40-50 hours on top ends no problems. Change your air filter every ride or every other (and actually oil them, 3 drops of oil doesnt count...) Change your oil on time and oil filters (cut them open and inspect them every few).
I spend by far more money on tires then i do anything mechanical for them...
I see your point for most of us but all things considered, taking care of a valvetrain for a fast guy cost more than 2 stk top ends.
I have no doubt that a 450 is a pretty reliable bike. I also have no doubt that a 250F comes apart in a big way.
I also have no doubt that the 250/450 nationals are no more exciting than the 125/250's were. The racing did not get any better.
Had there not been a double displacement advantage given, the 4's wouldn't be all that they are.
And about MXA, they've always been about motocross and racing. They were pretty clear in why they leaned towards the 4 and that was all about the displacement. Legalized cheating.
Like they do the bitches with shampoo.
Hey guy, quit the bullshit.
Straight up, a 250t against a 2504, weight, power, you lose every time.
And don't get me started on the open bikes.
Not to mwntion what the average kid can pull on upkeep. (not everyone has a dad with a motorhome.)
Now, if you pay attention here, you'd have seen the guy come on here himself and say it
was Yamaha that really pushed the 4's at the AMA.
Tell me they don't have an agenda.
As far as paychecks, not here son. HVAC contractor 25 years, semi retired (enough is enough)
for the last 8.
Don't even try and tell me about selling, maybe think about getting your head out of the sand.
Pit Row
What if someone came out with a $20,000 two stroke that was insanely light, tractable and pretty much everyone was faster on it. All these guys sticking up for 4 strokes that couldn't afford a 20k bike would be bitching about the same thing and saying it was bad for the sport. This is what has happened but on a different level. What exactly have four strokes done to improve the racing and the sport besides allow people to go a smidge faster and jump things most guys have no business jumping?
We probably never would of had guys like Henry, Dowd, and probably quite a few others that didn't come from much if the sport was as expensive as it is now. I think the new 4 strokes are awesome bikes and a lot more reliable than even a few years ago, but they have taken a lot of people out of the sport.
but when was the last time you "improperly" adjusted your YZ 250 powervalve or piston cir-clip and had a $3500 bill put in your hands at the dealership?
this shit happens, and i get that all you guys are God's gift to motorcycle mechanics, but some of us are terrified to touch a four-stroke internally. not everyone is scouring their bikes, and not everyone is lucky enough to own a 4-stroke that won't grenade on them at some point. case in point, i have had no problems with my 450, but i had a 250f sieze twice on me with less than 20 hours. the second sieze was because of a mistake from a trained 4-stroke mechanic at the dealership.
the point is, not everyone can afford to maintain and re-build a 4-stroke if they go down. but the fact of the matter is that if you want to be competitive on a motocross track, you eventually will need to be on the 4-stroke.
for the record, i own and race a 450, but the second it goes down it will be sold as scrap and i will continue riding my old 250 smoker. i don't race but maybe 2 times per year now, so the necessity of a competitive 450 is no longer necessary.
just my opinion, bros
Since then though, it's became too expensive to go back because of all the retooling expense and a more competitive 2 stk isn't fair to everyone on a 250f.
I think it was Mitch that said he's all for it as long as that's what everyone is riding, I guess there's at least some advantage he isn't wanting to give up to anyone with a capable rider on a 2 stk.
I will also add that the Yen/Dollar rate has as much to do with the price increase as the move to 4T. That is never mentioned in one of these 2 stroke Taliban threads.
And why did Japan try so hard to keep the rules favoring 4 stks?
" I don't know that I like the 250 four-strokes in the 125 class. It is too much of an advantage. They are double the size of our KX125's. Double! The legal four-strokes in the 250 class aren't double. The legal four strokes in the 80 class aren't double. You need to find a happy medium, and 250 ain't it. They are going to keep getting better, too. Right now, the 125's can run with them with momentum and speed in the corners, but what happens when you get behind them is that they slow down in the corners because they don't corner as well. They squirt the first ten or twenty feet, and then you have to try and run them down. That's hard. They get great starts too because of their traction. They have a big advantage here. You get little kids getting off an 80cc bike and they'll have to go to a 250. It is too big for them, too heavy and they can't start the things. All the manufacturers are working on them, and unfortunately we'll all be racing them in a few years."
Quoted in MXA, Sept. 2001.
Note the word "unfortunately". Mitch is a smart man, the same man who stated his four stroke program costs him four times as much as his two stroke program ever did. And of course for all of the 4 stroke lovers this is about the 250F, not 450's.
And I guess there isn't when you have the best riders and equipment, but I doubt he'd feel that way if say, Geico started showing up on CR250's.
Street legal Husky two stroke, direct injection. Just an artist rendering but Husky is working on it.
I really think two-stroke outboard motors played a role in the perception of two-stroke dirt bikes. You saw Honda push the four stroke revolution in watercraft too.
If you love two strokes, let your freak flag fly and ride a Yam, KTM, Husky, or something. And the displacement advantage is gone in amateur racing...go to town.
Good article on two-strokes.
http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/08/13/two-stroke-resurrection/?cmpid=obi…
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