Final Debate 250f vs 250

UPSman334
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UPSman334
Edited Date/Time 12/17/2018 10:25am
Someone explain for the masses on how a 250 smoker will beat a 250f but it is much harder to ride
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yz133rider
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yz133rider 12/16/2018 10:03am
12/16/2018 10:03am Edited Date/Time 12/16/2018 10:05am
It really wont anymore sorry. 250fs make good power all the way to 14k rpms...250s make it to about 8500.

250s make more at peak but for a much shorter window. 250fs can be geared lower but with the extra rpm still same mph with that gearing....and lower gearing is mechanical advantage..essentially more hp at the tire relatively...

250fs are far more hooked up, smoother, broader, and easier to ride.


Look at the rhythms 250fs make in sx...250s wouldnt be doing some of them, 250fs do damn near all the same sections as 450s indoors and out. Back to the gearing and rpms. Its been said mod 250fs are putting similiar hp at the tire as 450s thanks to gearing and rpms on each machine.

Only so much hp you can put down either way thru a 110 tire on dirt.

BR8ES
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BR8ES 12/16/2018 10:05am
12/16/2018 10:05am
For the masses a 250f is probably the best bike there is, since guys feel the need for a 2 stroke hit, the 250 can be a handful, not to mention more HP, etc. I did not answer sadly, even confused myself I think.
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UPSman334
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UPSman334 12/16/2018 10:37am
12/16/2018 10:37am
yz133rider wrote:
It really wont anymore sorry. 250fs make good power all the way to 14k rpms...250s make it to about 8500. 250s make more at peak but...
It really wont anymore sorry. 250fs make good power all the way to 14k rpms...250s make it to about 8500.

250s make more at peak but for a much shorter window. 250fs can be geared lower but with the extra rpm still same mph with that gearing....and lower gearing is mechanical advantage..essentially more hp at the tire relatively...

250fs are far more hooked up, smoother, broader, and easier to ride.


Look at the rhythms 250fs make in sx...250s wouldnt be doing some of them, 250fs do damn near all the same sections as 450s indoors and out. Back to the gearing and rpms. Its been said mod 250fs are putting similiar hp at the tire as 450s thanks to gearing and rpms on each machine.

Only so much hp you can put down either way thru a 110 tire on dirt.

i agree, and the smoker is so much harder to ride, very sporadic and you have to be so much more in shape
newmann
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newmann 12/16/2018 10:42am
12/16/2018 10:42am
The 2 stroke is still up about 10 hp and 10 lb ft of torque, correct? If someone spent the time to tune the 2 stroke for a smoother power delivery/ more 4 stroke feel, then they would be onto something.
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H4L
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H4L 12/16/2018 10:53am
12/16/2018 10:53am
I'm partial to the 250 2t's. Have a couple of CR250r's (03 & 07) that have engine mods & don't feel they give up much to a modern 18 CRF450r also own. It's been some yrs. that I raced the 03 model & had no problems pulling 450's on the straights. At my level I still wouldn't have any qualms lining up against 450's with a 250 2t. If you race at a higher skill level than that would be different. For local races I still believe the 250 2t has it's advantages due to the light weight.

Here is a member crc245 on an older 2t 96 CR250 doing some laps against an 18 CRF450r at GH. Keep in my mind this against a 450f & not a 250f..

https://youtu.be/HCT5fhpCfjY
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byke
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byke 12/16/2018 10:55am
12/16/2018 10:55am
Final debate, eh? I mean, various magazines have only been bringing in dozens test riders of all skill levels and running them on the dynos and throwing parts at the bikes and discussing it since 2001, but we're going to answer the age old question here in your thread..? One thread, to rule them all....kind of thing?
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MZ193
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MZ193 12/16/2018 11:02am
12/16/2018 11:02am
byke wrote:
Final debate, eh? I mean, various magazines have only been bringing in dozens test riders of all skill levels and running them on the dynos and...
Final debate, eh? I mean, various magazines have only been bringing in dozens test riders of all skill levels and running them on the dynos and throwing parts at the bikes and discussing it since 2001, but we're going to answer the age old question here in your thread..? One thread, to rule them all....kind of thing?
lol
250fs are way better than 250s, in any case..
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UPSman334
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UPSman334 12/16/2018 11:07am
12/16/2018 11:07am
i ride my smoker more, it’s like an old habit
you can’t kick
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byke
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byke 12/16/2018 11:12am
12/16/2018 11:12am
There's no answer without first getting everyone to agree what the comparison criteria is and if you even try to factor in "fun", then there's no point in comparing them at all. People ask what's the best and because we're narcissists by nature, we automatically assume that whatever we have in mind for criteria must be the same for everyone. You can really only compare these bikes between two people with identical goals that enjoy the same aspects equally, which is a little difficult to find and it gets exponentially more difficult for every person you add.
MZ193
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MZ193 12/16/2018 11:18am
12/16/2018 11:18am
byke wrote:
There's no answer without first getting everyone to agree what the comparison criteria is and if you even try to factor in "fun", then there's no...
There's no answer without first getting everyone to agree what the comparison criteria is and if you even try to factor in "fun", then there's no point in comparing them at all. People ask what's the best and because we're narcissists by nature, we automatically assume that whatever we have in mind for criteria must be the same for everyone. You can really only compare these bikes between two people with identical goals that enjoy the same aspects equally, which is a little difficult to find and it gets exponentially more difficult for every person you add.
in this case is very easy to answer:
want to have fun? go for 250
want to win races? go for 250f
250 is a bit cheaper talking about maintenance but 250f are way cheaper to buy, even more if used.
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SmokinJoe439 12/16/2018 11:21am
12/16/2018 11:21am
Since i hate the heavy feel or planted feel of 4 strokes and the engine decomp i dislike them.
Moto520
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Moto520 12/16/2018 11:24am
12/16/2018 11:24am
the track gets formed a certain way with 4 strokes. Put the 2 stroke on the track and a rider can take advantage of different lines and deceleration points (no engine braking so the bike skims over the decel bumps). Some of the older ridrs grew up on 2 strokes so there is not that learning curve that happens when you have only ridden 4 strokes. So.....while im doing a shitty job of explaining it.....the track conditions can be a place to gain an advantage on a 2 stroke, Suspension works differently on the 2 stroke and can also be advantageous in certain conditons.
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byke
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byke 12/16/2018 11:34am
12/16/2018 11:34am
byke wrote:
There's no answer without first getting everyone to agree what the comparison criteria is and if you even try to factor in "fun", then there's no...
There's no answer without first getting everyone to agree what the comparison criteria is and if you even try to factor in "fun", then there's no point in comparing them at all. People ask what's the best and because we're narcissists by nature, we automatically assume that whatever we have in mind for criteria must be the same for everyone. You can really only compare these bikes between two people with identical goals that enjoy the same aspects equally, which is a little difficult to find and it gets exponentially more difficult for every person you add.
MZ193 wrote:
in this case is very easy to answer: want to have fun? go for 250 want to win races? go for 250f 250 is a bit...
in this case is very easy to answer:
want to have fun? go for 250
want to win races? go for 250f
250 is a bit cheaper talking about maintenance but 250f are way cheaper to buy, even more if used.
It's still not easy. Like I said, you have to appreciate the same aspects equally and there's tons of crossover between your categories. For me, kinda old and fat, just riding is fun and the longer I can ride, the more fun I have, so the 4t is actually more fun because I measure it in amplitude, as well as *time*. We all have our own formula.
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jeffro503
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jeffro503 12/16/2018 11:40am
12/16/2018 11:40am
I grew up on the 2 strokes , and then did a 15 year stint on 450's. I went back because I needed something different , and then all of a sudden , I saw myself having more fun. I must ride different then a lot of guy's , because I get tired on a 450 in just a few laps. My moto's are 3 x longer on my 2 stroke 250. Different riding styles , for different folk's I guess. Some guy's hate the 2 stroke's , and then there are guy's like me that can't get enough of them. And on certain track days.....you'll give them 250F and 450F's everything they can handle , and then some.
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Moto520
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Moto520 12/16/2018 11:49am
12/16/2018 11:49am
jeffro503 wrote:
I grew up on the 2 strokes , and then did a 15 year stint on 450's. I went back because I needed something different...
I grew up on the 2 strokes , and then did a 15 year stint on 450's. I went back because I needed something different , and then all of a sudden , I saw myself having more fun. I must ride different then a lot of guy's , because I get tired on a 450 in just a few laps. My moto's are 3 x longer on my 2 stroke 250. Different riding styles , for different folk's I guess. Some guy's hate the 2 stroke's , and then there are guy's like me that can't get enough of them. And on certain track days.....you'll give them 250F and 450F's everything they can handle , and then some.
Agree 100%. Everyone should, if they have the means, own a 125. I’m about 200lbs and i got a yz125. I left the suspension stock, did a few bolt ons, and tuned for safety. The 125 makes it so that you have to actually rail turns and work to make the simple jumps.

I love it all but my 125 is the most fun. The key is to not give a fuck about going fast and just have fun.
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Lightning78
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Lightning78 12/16/2018 12:10pm
12/16/2018 12:10pm
SmokinJoe439 wrote:
Since i hate the heavy feel or planted feel of 4 strokes and the engine decomp i dislike them.
This
UPSman334
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UPSman334 12/16/2018 12:18pm
12/16/2018 12:18pm
I just love that 250 smoker railing around the edge passing a 250f.. gets me aroused
KG171
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KG171 12/16/2018 12:21pm
12/16/2018 12:21pm
newmann wrote:
The 2 stroke is still up about 10 hp and 10 lb ft of torque, correct? If someone spent the time to tune the 2 stroke...
The 2 stroke is still up about 10 hp and 10 lb ft of torque, correct? If someone spent the time to tune the 2 stroke for a smoother power delivery/ more 4 stroke feel, then they would be onto something.
Correct, over here in the Netherlands at the national races you can ride the 250f and the 250 as well in the 250 class since last year. Most of the riders have switched from the 250f to the 250, it seems like especially in the sand the 250 is a lot better because of the power. On hardpack tracks its closer tho because the 250 is harder to ride compared to the 250f.

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MZ193
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MZ193 12/16/2018 1:18pm
12/16/2018 1:18pm
newmann wrote:
The 2 stroke is still up about 10 hp and 10 lb ft of torque, correct? If someone spent the time to tune the 2 stroke...
The 2 stroke is still up about 10 hp and 10 lb ft of torque, correct? If someone spent the time to tune the 2 stroke for a smoother power delivery/ more 4 stroke feel, then they would be onto something.
KG171 wrote:
Correct, over here in the Netherlands at the national races you can ride the 250f and the 250 as well in the 250 class since last...
Correct, over here in the Netherlands at the national races you can ride the 250f and the 250 as well in the 250 class since last year. Most of the riders have switched from the 250f to the 250, it seems like especially in the sand the 250 is a lot better because of the power. On hardpack tracks its closer tho because the 250 is harder to ride compared to the 250f.
You said it.. National races. In this forum how many guys race national? 5? 10? Random wildcards?
In my opinion for the majority of the people (90-95% of the community) the 250f is the bike to buy.. How many of you would spend thousand of € to prepare a bike? And unless you ride at least twice a week and train in the gym.. 250f is better.
Falcon
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Falcon 12/16/2018 1:19pm
12/16/2018 1:19pm
Maybe it's because I've been riding 2 strokes for 35 years, but to me a 250 is easier to ride than a 250f. Way faster, too. What's the discussion?
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NeedMoto
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NeedMoto 12/16/2018 5:11pm
12/16/2018 5:11pm
UPSman334 wrote:
Someone explain for the masses on how a 250 smoker will beat a 250f but it is much harder to ride
The adrenaline rush and the fun factor of riding a smoker will cause your right hand to twist the throttle more, there for beating the 250f Cool
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newmann
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newmann 12/16/2018 6:38pm
12/16/2018 6:38pm
newmann wrote:
The 2 stroke is still up about 10 hp and 10 lb ft of torque, correct? If someone spent the time to tune the 2 stroke...
The 2 stroke is still up about 10 hp and 10 lb ft of torque, correct? If someone spent the time to tune the 2 stroke for a smoother power delivery/ more 4 stroke feel, then they would be onto something.
KG171 wrote:
Correct, over here in the Netherlands at the national races you can ride the 250f and the 250 as well in the 250 class since last...
Correct, over here in the Netherlands at the national races you can ride the 250f and the 250 as well in the 250 class since last year. Most of the riders have switched from the 250f to the 250, it seems like especially in the sand the 250 is a lot better because of the power. On hardpack tracks its closer tho because the 250 is harder to ride compared to the 250f.
MZ193 wrote:
You said it.. National races. In this forum how many guys race national? 5? 10? Random wildcards? In my opinion for the majority of the people...
You said it.. National races. In this forum how many guys race national? 5? 10? Random wildcards?
In my opinion for the majority of the people (90-95% of the community) the 250f is the bike to buy.. How many of you would spend thousand of € to prepare a bike? And unless you ride at least twice a week and train in the gym.. 250f is better.
Well, over here in the US the 250 2 stroke is legal to race in the 250 class with the 4 stroke 250’s yet Vital won’t even include any of the current crop of 2 strokes in the 250 shootouts. It’s as if they are running a shootout for the Nationals with stock bikes. Hard to take a shootout serious when they leave a good number of eligible bikes out of the equation.
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newmann
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newmann 12/16/2018 6:46pm
12/16/2018 6:46pm
And by the way, I’m more of a small bore lover. I found out early on that the 250F fit the ticket somewhere between the 125 and 250 2 stroke, something that I was looking for. My next new bike purchase could very well be a euro brand 250F. Not any time soon though, too much fun stuff to work on first. Ordering up some stuff for this one in the next couple of weeks. The 90 YZ250 was a low to mid beast, back when Bradshaw was all the rage. When this thing hit a hard midrange pull and signed off, it did it in a major way. Felt like you dropped anchor if you didn’t grab the next gear!

I’m going through make the 1990 YZ250 Great Again.


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Shawn142 12/16/2018 6:51pm
12/16/2018 6:51pm
So I can't tell, are we being serious or sarcastic when claiming a 2-stroke is "so much harder to ride"?
newmann
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newmann 12/16/2018 6:58pm
12/16/2018 6:58pm
Shawn142 wrote:
So I can't tell, are we being serious or sarcastic when claiming a 2-stroke is "so much harder to ride"?
I remember in the mid 90’s when Kristy Shealy and Dee Woods would go at it on 125’s and 250’s showing a lot of the guys the fast way around the track. No 250F’s around back then.
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Helda 12/16/2018 7:09pm
12/16/2018 7:09pm
In my area all the supported pros run 250 2/'s in the lites class...
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Shawn142 12/16/2018 7:49pm
12/16/2018 7:49pm
Shawn142 wrote:
So I can't tell, are we being serious or sarcastic when claiming a 2-stroke is "so much harder to ride"?
newmann wrote:
I remember in the mid 90’s when Kristy Shealy and Dee Woods would go at it on 125’s and 250’s showing a lot of the guys...
I remember in the mid 90’s when Kristy Shealy and Dee Woods would go at it on 125’s and 250’s showing a lot of the guys the fast way around the track. No 250F’s around back then.
I raced them both on many occasions. I was racing B class around the same time they did in north TX. Every moto involved passing Dee because she was a holeshot master.

I guess my point is a fast guy (or girl) is fast on pretty much anything and can transition between bikes almost seamlessly. I don't consider a 250 any harder to ride than a 250F. It's not even some divine art to make a 125 sing. I just don't understand the glorification of it and that's coming from someone who grew up racing 2-strokes and transitioned to 4-stroke right around my meager attempt at being a pro. If you wanna race a 2-stroke because you think it's rad well that's awesome. But don't try and convince me you've got some kind of handicap doing it.
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Timo_2824
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Timo_2824 12/16/2018 8:31pm
12/16/2018 8:31pm
I've ridden both back to back as well as a 450, lap times didn't really change. Either bike is more capable than most people. If you can I say buy both and change it up once in awhile. I will say this though, the 250 is way better at hydroplaning than a 250F.
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Turbojez 12/17/2018 3:41am
12/17/2018 3:41am
byke wrote:
Final debate, eh? I mean, various magazines have only been bringing in dozens test riders of all skill levels and running them on the dynos and...
Final debate, eh? I mean, various magazines have only been bringing in dozens test riders of all skill levels and running them on the dynos and throwing parts at the bikes and discussing it since 2001, but we're going to answer the age old question here in your thread..? One thread, to rule them all....kind of thing?
MZ193 wrote:
lol
250fs are way better than 250s, in any case..
Unless you like to have fun.
1
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Turbojez
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Turbojez 12/17/2018 3:46am
12/17/2018 3:46am
byke wrote:
There's no answer without first getting everyone to agree what the comparison criteria is and if you even try to factor in "fun", then there's no...
There's no answer without first getting everyone to agree what the comparison criteria is and if you even try to factor in "fun", then there's no point in comparing them at all. People ask what's the best and because we're narcissists by nature, we automatically assume that whatever we have in mind for criteria must be the same for everyone. You can really only compare these bikes between two people with identical goals that enjoy the same aspects equally, which is a little difficult to find and it gets exponentially more difficult for every person you add.
MZ193 wrote:
in this case is very easy to answer: want to have fun? go for 250 want to win races? go for 250f 250 is a bit...
in this case is very easy to answer:
want to have fun? go for 250
want to win races? go for 250f
250 is a bit cheaper talking about maintenance but 250f are way cheaper to buy, even more if used.
I will have to disagree with you mate.
250 when ridden hard drinks the fuel like there's no tomorrow. A couple of practice sessions a month and you have gallons burnt through that engine, and it adds up quickly. Where 250f takes small, calculated sips, the 250 just pours the whole bottle down its throat.
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