Factory advantage hurting MX SX

Edited Date/Time 4/13/2013 5:53pm
The production rule is a joke and anyone who thinks its being fallowed is out of touch with reality. What I'm about to suggest is is going to make some peoples heads spin around as they scream "But it's the rider" are you done ? relax breath. Okay lets move on to my point which is, on the pro level and by pro I'm referring to AMA licensed racers, not your locale bad ass. I think their is an unfair advantage the factory supported teams have and give to their racers over the rest of the field not able to ride prototype equipment, and this would include teams such as pro circuit and factory connection and the like. From custom frames they change out as they stretch every 8 races or so ( Ya they do that ) to 50k suspension, 3speed trannys for SX, and one off electrical and exhaust the list goes on and on. The other pros lining up to race against these machines are not as privileged and they are the back bone the heart and soul of the sport, hell they even have to pay to race what if the NFL did that LOL !
This kind of makes our sport on a professional level a bit of a joke and not to be taken to seriously. The OEMS spend millions in racing to prove their bike is the best, and maybe their bike on the AMA race track they custom built is the best ? but not necessarily the one you go to buy at their locale dealer, which is where all the privateers have to start. So why not break down the classes differently, have a 250 and 450 pro class as well a 250 and 450 factory class. More racing to watch and better chances for a privateer to make real money at least more than he is now not working at a disadvantage and if you don't think he is "Because it's all about the rider" just remember there's a reason Rv has 50K suspension and if it didn't make a difference on his wins "They wouldn't make it " I'm done flame on !
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Shawn142
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4/13/2013 8:29am
So your answer to somehow bring in more money and fans is to further dilute the field and go from 2 classes to 4. Somehow that will be marketable to a network and to casual fans who have enough trouble following the program anyway?

And yea, the only thing making my head spin is your grammar.
FreshTopEnd
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4/13/2013 9:03am Edited Date/Time 4/13/2013 9:38am
The guys being beaten are being beaten by better riders. Even if everyone who believed in unicorns and a pure production rule got what they wanted, the better riders will still get more resources to develop the bikes. Being better gets you more, as it should be.
OW38B
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4/13/2013 9:33am
Convince the AMA/FIM goobers to let ALL 250cc bikes in their 250cc class would be a start.
jeffro503
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4/13/2013 9:47am
DM18 was/is riding a production based bike ( unlike James)......and it didn't seem to hinder him what so ever this season.

The factory bikes of today are not light years ahead of the production stuff any more. Sure....they are better , but it is nothing like what the gap was back in the early to mid 80's.

The Shop

4/13/2013 9:52am
If the claiming rule were brought back, the current semi works bikes would go away. But as Andrew Short showed, a current production bike is very competitive. The best riders will win either way. Maybe if the pay were better for the riders who finished
outside the top 20, this would be more beneficial to help them keep their bike more competitive.
Like those hydraulic clutches on the japanese supercross production bikes, If Honda or any other brand thinks it is an
advantage, why is it not on their real production bike?
4/13/2013 10:19am
sam.carson wrote:
The production rule is a joke and anyone who thinks its being fallowed is out of touch with reality. What I'm about to suggest is is...
The production rule is a joke and anyone who thinks its being fallowed is out of touch with reality. What I'm about to suggest is is going to make some peoples heads spin around as they scream "But it's the rider" are you done ? relax breath. Okay lets move on to my point which is, on the pro level and by pro I'm referring to AMA licensed racers, not your locale bad ass. I think their is an unfair advantage the factory supported teams have and give to their racers over the rest of the field not able to ride prototype equipment, and this would include teams such as pro circuit and factory connection and the like. From custom frames they change out as they stretch every 8 races or so ( Ya they do that ) to 50k suspension, 3speed trannys for SX, and one off electrical and exhaust the list goes on and on. The other pros lining up to race against these machines are not as privileged and they are the back bone the heart and soul of the sport, hell they even have to pay to race what if the NFL did that LOL !
This kind of makes our sport on a professional level a bit of a joke and not to be taken to seriously. The OEMS spend millions in racing to prove their bike is the best, and maybe their bike on the AMA race track they custom built is the best ? but not necessarily the one you go to buy at their locale dealer, which is where all the privateers have to start. So why not break down the classes differently, have a 250 and 450 pro class as well a 250 and 450 factory class. More racing to watch and better chances for a privateer to make real money at least more than he is now not working at a disadvantage and if you don't think he is "Because it's all about the rider" just remember there's a reason Rv has 50K suspension and if it didn't make a difference on his wins "They wouldn't make it " I'm done flame on !
I agree!!!.........I dont know about dividing the classes so much...but I agree I would like to see more done to enforce the production rule where if a priveteer cannot at least go buy it then it shouldnt be given to the "top" guys either. The top guys get cuddled enough on the race days and throughout the series week to week with mechanics and trainers etc........so why do they need the equipment advantage too.
and yeah it would be cool to open a "claiming" option in the sport.

Id like to see it become "just the rider" instead of seeing how custom a bike can be taylord to a rider......If they are indeed that good then let them adapt to the bike in stock trim.
4/13/2013 10:20am
I had an idea that I shared with DC, but it may be dumb. I proposed a production rule exemption where every team is able to purchase an exemption for somewhere in the $100,000 range per bike. the rider of that bike is then ineligible for purse money due to the advantage. The money gained from this would be added to the purse for all the riders not participating.

So, say if each factory team purchased one exemption, that would equal $500,000 that would be added to the overall series purse. If the five works bikes came in 1-5 in a moto, the first rider to receive purse money would be the 6th place rider. That rider would receive what is now 1st place purse plus part of the purse from the exemptions. the Purse money would go further to the people it really matters to and there would be more of it.

I see it as the fans get works bikes again, the top riders get the best equipment with the small disadvantage of no purse money, and the second, third, and fourth tier riders get more money.
jeffro503
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4/13/2013 10:53am
I just don't seeing it being a huge advantage as it once was. I think every riders goal / dream is to be on a factory bike....but more importantly a team.

KW was a guy who used to like the worked over production suspension better than the factory stuff. Larry ward was another guy like that and said he just didn't feel right on the factory suspension...so he ran modified stock stuff.

Then you have guys like Reed.....which in 2011 put down $80,000 of his own money to get a factory tranny put in his bike....and he must of felt that it was worth the investment.

DM18 and Short both have proven this year that you can get these production bikes pretty damn close to a factory bike with the right parts......but it all boils down to what the rider actually feels comfortable with.
zippy895
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4/13/2013 11:06am
i feel the advantages are that top supported riders get better practice equipment ,training and resting during the race season.were as privateers dont have .
ocscottie
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4/13/2013 11:12am
zippy895 wrote:
i feel the advantages are that top supported riders get better practice equipment ,training and resting during the race season.were as privateers dont have .
Yea, and another Factory advantage is the resources to tailor the bike exactly to the riders needs. But todays advantage pales in comparison to the days of old w/ they were building true 1 off machines.
zippy895
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4/13/2013 11:15am
zippy895 wrote:
i feel the advantages are that top supported riders get better practice equipment ,training and resting during the race season.were as privateers dont have .
ocscottie wrote:
Yea, and another Factory advantage is the resources to tailor the bike [i]exactly[/i] to the riders needs. But todays advantage pales in comparison to the days...
Yea, and another Factory advantage is the resources to tailor the bike exactly to the riders needs. But todays advantage pales in comparison to the days of old w/ they were building true 1 off machines.
so true.
mototrader
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4/13/2013 11:55am
The factory advantage isn't just parts. It surely helps but the resources are what makes a factory bike " it "

A full team of technicians to make the bike new and to your liking at your whim, fresh tires, motors, etc

A privateer with 2 bikes and a limited budget can wear them out very, very quickly. When you're national level fast, you tend to wear things down quite a bit
4/13/2013 12:52pm
I believe there can be some further production rules and still maintain a "factory" advantage. If the AMA wants to monitor fuel for any sort of unfair advantage then there should be a rule on tire compounds so that one team doesn't get an unfair advantage over the competition due to having exclusive access to select compounds. That still leaves a lot of room for the factories in the engine and suspension department.
4/13/2013 1:56pm Edited Date/Time 4/13/2013 1:58pm
sam.carson wrote:
The production rule is a joke and anyone who thinks its being fallowed is out of touch with reality. What I'm about to suggest is is...
The production rule is a joke and anyone who thinks its being fallowed is out of touch with reality. What I'm about to suggest is is going to make some peoples heads spin around as they scream "But it's the rider" are you done ? relax breath. Okay lets move on to my point which is, on the pro level and by pro I'm referring to AMA licensed racers, not your locale bad ass. I think their is an unfair advantage the factory supported teams have and give to their racers over the rest of the field not able to ride prototype equipment, and this would include teams such as pro circuit and factory connection and the like. From custom frames they change out as they stretch every 8 races or so ( Ya they do that ) to 50k suspension, 3speed trannys for SX, and one off electrical and exhaust the list goes on and on. The other pros lining up to race against these machines are not as privileged and they are the back bone the heart and soul of the sport, hell they even have to pay to race what if the NFL did that LOL !
This kind of makes our sport on a professional level a bit of a joke and not to be taken to seriously. The OEMS spend millions in racing to prove their bike is the best, and maybe their bike on the AMA race track they custom built is the best ? but not necessarily the one you go to buy at their locale dealer, which is where all the privateers have to start. So why not break down the classes differently, have a 250 and 450 pro class as well a 250 and 450 factory class. More racing to watch and better chances for a privateer to make real money at least more than he is now not working at a disadvantage and if you don't think he is "Because it's all about the rider" just remember there's a reason Rv has 50K suspension and if it didn't make a difference on his wins "They wouldn't make it " I'm done flame on !
Give Andrew short a factory bike and he'll still get 9th, give villipoto a box stock bike and he'll still be near the front.


It's just like this local so cal has been Dan Berg, he smokes,drinks, eats cheeseburgers, drinks more beer than Lou soto , comes out on worn out pile of junk and smokes his class beating guys who have trick fresh bikes with the latest shiny metal bits added to them. Motocross is purely a Mans sport, that requires more heart , less brains and desire pin it
TeamGreen
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4/13/2013 2:57pm
Mike Alessi
Davi Milsaps
Andrew Short
Weston Peick
Bobby Kiniry
Jimmy Albertson

They Defy this thread.

The Advantage Is NOT nearly as great as it has been in the past.
The "Production Rule" has improved Stock Equipment Sooooooo Much that I can't help laughing at this thread; because, I'm SO Damn Old that I remember going thru 3 frames on each of my '81 YZs! Lets not EVEN go into Motors: Yes! They ARE that Good!

Best Example? 2013.5 KTM 450-SXF-FE (really don't care what the Magazine guys say: you're buying a Factory Edition when they made & sold'em just to have Lighter-Cases).
Furthermore, I applaud KTM for "Turning it up a notch"!

I'm jus' sayin'...
mototrader
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4/13/2013 3:08pm Edited Date/Time 4/13/2013 3:10pm
TeamGreen wrote:
Mike Alessi Davi Milsaps Andrew Short Weston Peick Bobby Kiniry Jimmy Albertson They Defy this thread. The Advantage Is NOT nearly as great as it has...
Mike Alessi
Davi Milsaps
Andrew Short
Weston Peick
Bobby Kiniry
Jimmy Albertson

They Defy this thread.

The Advantage Is NOT nearly as great as it has been in the past.
The "Production Rule" has improved Stock Equipment Sooooooo Much that I can't help laughing at this thread; because, I'm SO Damn Old that I remember going thru 3 frames on each of my '81 YZs! Lets not EVEN go into Motors: Yes! They ARE that Good!

Best Example? 2013.5 KTM 450-SXF-FE (really don't care what the Magazine guys say: you're buying a Factory Edition when they made & sold'em just to have Lighter-Cases).
Furthermore, I applaud KTM for "Turning it up a notch"!

I'm jus' sayin'...
x2

this is what i love about capitalism....go buy a new rmz450 or a new cbr1000rr.....now tell me they suck and aren't competitive. both bikes, with alittle massaging are 'race ready'

i used sportbikes as an example cause the new 600 / Liter bikes are friggin TRICK!!

every year the bikes get better and better.
4/13/2013 3:10pm
How much better did chad go when he got some factory help! They need to make the rules tighter on the bikes firstly for parity and secondly for costs.The worlds best supercross/motocross rider doesn't race ,he cant afford it! I raced karts for years and as soon as they tightened the rules on the motors the competition tightened up and the racing got real close.
BobbyM
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4/13/2013 3:23pm
sam.carson wrote:
The production rule is a joke and anyone who thinks its being fallowed is out of touch with reality. What I'm about to suggest is is...
The production rule is a joke and anyone who thinks its being fallowed is out of touch with reality. What I'm about to suggest is is going to make some peoples heads spin around as they scream "But it's the rider" are you done ? relax breath. Okay lets move on to my point which is, on the pro level and by pro I'm referring to AMA licensed racers, not your locale bad ass. I think their is an unfair advantage the factory supported teams have and give to their racers over the rest of the field not able to ride prototype equipment, and this would include teams such as pro circuit and factory connection and the like. From custom frames they change out as they stretch every 8 races or so ( Ya they do that ) to 50k suspension, 3speed trannys for SX, and one off electrical and exhaust the list goes on and on. The other pros lining up to race against these machines are not as privileged and they are the back bone the heart and soul of the sport, hell they even have to pay to race what if the NFL did that LOL !
This kind of makes our sport on a professional level a bit of a joke and not to be taken to seriously. The OEMS spend millions in racing to prove their bike is the best, and maybe their bike on the AMA race track they custom built is the best ? but not necessarily the one you go to buy at their locale dealer, which is where all the privateers have to start. So why not break down the classes differently, have a 250 and 450 pro class as well a 250 and 450 factory class. More racing to watch and better chances for a privateer to make real money at least more than he is now not working at a disadvantage and if you don't think he is "Because it's all about the rider" just remember there's a reason Rv has 50K suspension and if it didn't make a difference on his wins "They wouldn't make it " I'm done flame on !
Im fucking dizzy just trying to read this gobblygoop.

If the riders were actually racing their bikes to its potential you might have an argument .
TeamGreen
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4/13/2013 3:28pm
TeamGreen wrote:
Mike Alessi Davi Milsaps Andrew Short Weston Peick Bobby Kiniry Jimmy Albertson They Defy this thread. The Advantage Is NOT nearly as great as it has...
Mike Alessi
Davi Milsaps
Andrew Short
Weston Peick
Bobby Kiniry
Jimmy Albertson

They Defy this thread.

The Advantage Is NOT nearly as great as it has been in the past.
The "Production Rule" has improved Stock Equipment Sooooooo Much that I can't help laughing at this thread; because, I'm SO Damn Old that I remember going thru 3 frames on each of my '81 YZs! Lets not EVEN go into Motors: Yes! They ARE that Good!

Best Example? 2013.5 KTM 450-SXF-FE (really don't care what the Magazine guys say: you're buying a Factory Edition when they made & sold'em just to have Lighter-Cases).
Furthermore, I applaud KTM for "Turning it up a notch"!

I'm jus' sayin'...
mototrader wrote:
x2 this is what i love about capitalism....go buy a new rmz450 or a new cbr1000rr.....now tell me they suck and aren't competitive. both bikes, with...
x2

this is what i love about capitalism....go buy a new rmz450 or a new cbr1000rr.....now tell me they suck and aren't competitive. both bikes, with alittle massaging are 'race ready'

i used sportbikes as an example cause the new 600 / Liter bikes are friggin TRICK!!

every year the bikes get better and better.
Then there's the new Triumph Daytona 675R: I think all it needs for a The Race Track is an Umbrella Girl!
4/13/2013 4:36pm
The fastest riders win, period. They get the best bikes because they win, they dont win because they get the best bikes.

Never in the history of the sport has the difference between a stone stock bike and a works bike been so small.
Motodude
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4/13/2013 4:51pm
TeamGreen wrote:
Mike Alessi Davi Milsaps Andrew Short Weston Peick Bobby Kiniry Jimmy Albertson They Defy this thread. The Advantage Is NOT nearly as great as it has...
Mike Alessi
Davi Milsaps
Andrew Short
Weston Peick
Bobby Kiniry
Jimmy Albertson

They Defy this thread.

The Advantage Is NOT nearly as great as it has been in the past.
The "Production Rule" has improved Stock Equipment Sooooooo Much that I can't help laughing at this thread; because, I'm SO Damn Old that I remember going thru 3 frames on each of my '81 YZs! Lets not EVEN go into Motors: Yes! They ARE that Good!

Best Example? 2013.5 KTM 450-SXF-FE (really don't care what the Magazine guys say: you're buying a Factory Edition when they made & sold'em just to have Lighter-Cases).
Furthermore, I applaud KTM for "Turning it up a notch"!

I'm jus' sayin'...
mototrader wrote:
x2 this is what i love about capitalism....go buy a new rmz450 or a new cbr1000rr.....now tell me they suck and aren't competitive. both bikes, with...
x2

this is what i love about capitalism....go buy a new rmz450 or a new cbr1000rr.....now tell me they suck and aren't competitive. both bikes, with alittle massaging are 'race ready'

i used sportbikes as an example cause the new 600 / Liter bikes are friggin TRICK!!

every year the bikes get better and better.
TeamGreen wrote:
Then there's the new Triumph Daytona 675R: I think all it needs for a The Race Track is an Umbrella Girl!
you're mistaking capitalism with free enterprise mototrader...free enterprise rules. Over bearing rules and regulations kill it off, witness the western hemisphere right now.
jonesaustin
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Austin, TX US
4/13/2013 5:36pm Edited Date/Time 4/13/2013 5:40pm
if these are works bikes, they are BORING works bikes. i say bring back REAL works bikes - that means frames, plastics, everything. total off showroom innovation. it was the coolest aspect of our sport years ago. when i hear the word "works" today and since 86, it's a joke. they're fine tuned, no doubt, but these not by any means totally exotic machines like they need to be at the top level.
DrSweden
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4/13/2013 5:53pm
Roczen did a top five 2011 on a SX125 (last GP). Made a bunch of riders on superior equipement look pretty stupid...

As already been mentioned: Factory for me means similar equipement, but greater effort when it matters.

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