Factory 450's horsepower

THE_NOOB
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THE_NOOB
Edited Date/Time 3/12/2013 1:03pm
Anyone have any idea how much Horsepower they're probably getting out of these bikes these days, they seem to have an incredible amount of snap out of the Corners. I have a couple CR 500's and I think they were quoted as having around 58 to 62 hp, but I think the Factory 450's are putting out more than that. I thought I heard Ricky Carmichael saying once that they had to actually de-tune the Bikes just to make them more manageable. I can just imagine what one of those bikes would be like for an average Joe to ride
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twosmoke30 3/10/2013 12:00pm
3/10/2013 12:00pm
dungye's is near stock, just massaged a bit, i would guess they're all around 57-60, but then again guys like milsaps and windahm want everything you can put in the engine
norcal3737
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norcal3737 3/10/2013 12:34pm
3/10/2013 12:34pm Edited Date/Time 3/10/2013 12:37pm
You could easily make them 60+ hp. With portwork, high compression piston, cam, exhaust, tune work, 91octane, and whatever else my old man's done to his '10 crf450, it put down 59hp, and that's on a less than stellar motor, to begin with. That's just with off the shelf components. With factory support & budget, they can probably pull out crazy amount of power. The question is, can you utilize that without fatiguing the crap out of yourself? Manageable hp probably suits these riders more than outright hp.
newmann
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newmann 3/10/2013 12:35pm
3/10/2013 12:35pm
Jimmy Button's 426...(540??Whistling ) dyno'd in at 76 hp. Delivered it all rather abruptly and was pretty much unrideable. Dial it back from there. That was 2000-01?

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josh8811
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josh8811 3/10/2013 12:44pm
3/10/2013 12:44pm
The new 450SX is 57.. It's almost blinding fast in the middle to upper RPM's..
ATKpilot99
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ATKpilot99 3/10/2013 12:47pm
3/10/2013 12:47pm
newmann wrote:
Jimmy Button's 426...(540??:whistle: ) dyno'd in at 76 hp. Delivered it all rather abruptly and was pretty much unrideable. Dial it back from there. That was...
Jimmy Button's 426...(540??Whistling ) dyno'd in at 76 hp. Delivered it all rather abruptly and was pretty much unrideable. Dial it back from there. That was 2000-01?
Was that measured at the crank ?
Choppy
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Choppy 3/10/2013 12:54pm
3/10/2013 12:54pm
Mitch Payton has stated in podcasts that none of the teams are de-tuning the 450's to make them more "rideable" and they all have more than stock HP.

The amount they have is dependent on how much the rider wants.
just James
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just James 3/10/2013 12:58pm
3/10/2013 12:58pm
Due to the limits of traction, on one hand, and a high center of gravity combined with a short wheelbase, on the other, there is only so much power that can be used at the low speeds of supercross. I doubt that most of the teams try to get much, if any, extra power out of the 450's. The fact that the 250's run basically the same lap times demonstrates that they are making about as much as can be used. Outdoors is a different matter.
Bytor
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Bytor 3/10/2013 1:07pm
3/10/2013 1:07pm
Peak numbers don't mean much. It is the curve on how it gets there that makes a good engine builder.
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PTshox 3/10/2013 1:13pm
3/10/2013 1:13pm
61-63 HP that is ride able at the factory level.
RACEGUY
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RACEGUY 3/10/2013 1:18pm
3/10/2013 1:18pm
Any engine builder will tell you, it's not what it's got, it's where you put it. If my rider likes to come in really hot and totally shut the throttle at entry to turns, he needs a smooth delivery (transition) from small throttle openings to full throttle. If my guy likes to carry mid-range RPM through entry and mid-turn, the mill can hit a lot harder coming off while maintaining a good level of throttle control. You need to design the power delivery to the rider's style. You want the HP and torque curves to cross at the right place for your rider. If you have 65 horsepower and 40 foot pounds of torque to work with, you want it to be available to your rider when his "style" needs it. Too much too early or too late, and you've missed the mark. I've seen guys with dyno numbers that will make you do a second-take, but the lap times don't do the engine build justice. Without conforming the curves to the rider, you might as well be feeding hundred dollar bills into the intake. People who test drive electrics are always impressed by the command they have over torque. It's instantaneous and perfectly progressive. Internal combustion engines are always a compromise. Can't think of any bikes in the same class that would touch my rotary-valve KX125 for HP at the time, but the powerband was about 1200 RPM wide. Bog or blast may not be the best way to go.
mx295
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mx295 3/10/2013 1:21pm
3/10/2013 1:21pm
I know one of them showed 68 on the dyno.
DrSweden
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DrSweden 3/10/2013 1:22pm
3/10/2013 1:22pm
Yawn, they got nothing on my YZ125, with the Doma pipe/PC-muffler it tears new butt holes on these silly tractors! Grinning
RACEGUY
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RACEGUY 3/10/2013 1:33pm
3/10/2013 1:33pm
DrSweden wrote:
Yawn, they got nothing on my YZ125, with the Doma pipe/PC-muffler it tears new butt holes on these silly tractors! Grinning
This is why running 2-strokes and 4-strokes on the same track at the same time is a non-starter. The sophisticated throttle control of a good 2-T rider with a narrow powerband begs for cornering speed/momentum. The lazy point-n-shoot lines of 4-Ts wreck the track and the lines for those who actually know how to race. It's like comparing unlimited hydroplanes to F-1 outboards. One is about skill and finesse, the other is about simply holding on to the horsepower.
1
jtomasik
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jtomasik 3/10/2013 1:46pm
3/10/2013 1:46pm
THE_NOOB wrote:
Anyone have any idea how much Horsepower they're probably getting out of these bikes these days, they seem to have an incredible amount of snap out...
Anyone have any idea how much Horsepower they're probably getting out of these bikes these days, they seem to have an incredible amount of snap out of the Corners. I have a couple CR 500's and I think they were quoted as having around 58 to 62 hp, but I think the Factory 450's are putting out more than that. I thought I heard Ricky Carmichael saying once that they had to actually de-tune the Bikes just to make them more manageable. I can just imagine what one of those bikes would be like for an average Joe to ride
The big deal with the smokers is that they make a LOT more torque per cc than the 4-stroke does. Your 500 makes that horsepower at about 6500 rpm. A 450 4-stroke has to spin around 10,000 rpm to create that much horsepower. Since horsepower is how often you create torque (in layman's terms), your bike has to have much more torque to create about the same horsepower the 450 4-stroke does at much higher rpm's.

The idea that a 4-stroke makes more torque per cc is a common misconception. What they do better is that they have a much wider rpm range. But, tractor your 500 off idle, and you'll walk on those 450's.
AS64
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AS64 3/10/2013 1:56pm
3/10/2013 1:56pm Edited Date/Time 3/10/2013 1:57pm
THE_NOOB wrote:
Anyone have any idea how much Horsepower they're probably getting out of these bikes these days, they seem to have an incredible amount of snap out...
Anyone have any idea how much Horsepower they're probably getting out of these bikes these days, they seem to have an incredible amount of snap out of the Corners. I have a couple CR 500's and I think they were quoted as having around 58 to 62 hp, but I think the Factory 450's are putting out more than that. I thought I heard Ricky Carmichael saying once that they had to actually de-tune the Bikes just to make them more manageable. I can just imagine what one of those bikes would be like for an average Joe to ride

It's not so much about how much horsepower they are making. What separates the Factory bikes is how they put the horsepower down. It's about manageable, controllable horsepower. Whether that be 55hp, 75hp, or anywhere in between. But know this.. they can make those things into a fire breathing monster.. if the rider wanted that.
RACEGUY
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RACEGUY 3/10/2013 1:58pm
3/10/2013 1:58pm
THE_NOOB wrote:
Anyone have any idea how much Horsepower they're probably getting out of these bikes these days, they seem to have an incredible amount of snap out...
Anyone have any idea how much Horsepower they're probably getting out of these bikes these days, they seem to have an incredible amount of snap out of the Corners. I have a couple CR 500's and I think they were quoted as having around 58 to 62 hp, but I think the Factory 450's are putting out more than that. I thought I heard Ricky Carmichael saying once that they had to actually de-tune the Bikes just to make them more manageable. I can just imagine what one of those bikes would be like for an average Joe to ride
jtomasik wrote:
The big deal with the smokers is that they make a LOT more torque per cc than the 4-stroke does. Your 500 makes that horsepower at...
The big deal with the smokers is that they make a LOT more torque per cc than the 4-stroke does. Your 500 makes that horsepower at about 6500 rpm. A 450 4-stroke has to spin around 10,000 rpm to create that much horsepower. Since horsepower is how often you create torque (in layman's terms), your bike has to have much more torque to create about the same horsepower the 450 4-stroke does at much higher rpm's.

The idea that a 4-stroke makes more torque per cc is a common misconception. What they do better is that they have a much wider rpm range. But, tractor your 500 off idle, and you'll walk on those 450's.
Short-shift and shoot off into the sunset. The myth that kills me is that 2-strokes rev higher than 4-strokes. It was probably your great-grampy who actually believed that. Don't blame him. Obviously, the tachometer hadn't been invented yet. My H2 750 Kawasaki triple made more HP and torque at lower RPM than the mighty Z-1 900cc DOHC. Redline was lower too. Get those myths out of your head. Great-grampy was an idiot.
ando
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ando 3/10/2013 3:05pm
3/10/2013 3:05pm
THE_NOOB wrote:
Anyone have any idea how much Horsepower they're probably getting out of these bikes these days, they seem to have an incredible amount of snap out...
Anyone have any idea how much Horsepower they're probably getting out of these bikes these days, they seem to have an incredible amount of snap out of the Corners. I have a couple CR 500's and I think they were quoted as having around 58 to 62 hp, but I think the Factory 450's are putting out more than that. I thought I heard Ricky Carmichael saying once that they had to actually de-tune the Bikes just to make them more manageable. I can just imagine what one of those bikes would be like for an average Joe to ride
jtomasik wrote:
The big deal with the smokers is that they make a LOT more torque per cc than the 4-stroke does. Your 500 makes that horsepower at...
The big deal with the smokers is that they make a LOT more torque per cc than the 4-stroke does. Your 500 makes that horsepower at about 6500 rpm. A 450 4-stroke has to spin around 10,000 rpm to create that much horsepower. Since horsepower is how often you create torque (in layman's terms), your bike has to have much more torque to create about the same horsepower the 450 4-stroke does at much higher rpm's.

The idea that a 4-stroke makes more torque per cc is a common misconception. What they do better is that they have a much wider rpm range. But, tractor your 500 off idle, and you'll walk on those 450's.
Only thing is the 500 will sign off by about 8000rpm, the 450 will still be making useable power up to 10,000 or 11,000rpm. That's the key to why modern four strokes are successful race bikes, regardless of additional weight and about how a 2 stroke makes more power/torque per cc - it's the fact that they can be made to make as much useable horsepower as the 500's used to have, plus the vast useable rev range. There's just no way you can make a current two stroke with that broad power/torque.

I'm guessing these bikes make somewhere in the region of 60 horsepower (most stock 450's now have figures in the mid-high 50's). I'm also guessing that these guys can ride most tracks in probably only two gears, and a good number of them in only one gear. No chance of doing that on a two stroke.

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jtomasik
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jtomasik 3/10/2013 3:10pm
3/10/2013 3:10pm Edited Date/Time 3/10/2013 3:12pm
ando wrote:
Only thing is the 500 will sign off by about 8000rpm, the 450 will still be making useable power up to 10,000 or 11,000rpm. That's the...
Only thing is the 500 will sign off by about 8000rpm, the 450 will still be making useable power up to 10,000 or 11,000rpm. That's the key to why modern four strokes are successful race bikes, regardless of additional weight and about how a 2 stroke makes more power/torque per cc - it's the fact that they can be made to make as much useable horsepower as the 500's used to have, plus the vast useable rev range. There's just no way you can make a current two stroke with that broad power/torque.

I'm guessing these bikes make somewhere in the region of 60 horsepower (most stock 450's now have figures in the mid-high 50's). I'm also guessing that these guys can ride most tracks in probably only two gears, and a good number of them in only one gear. No chance of doing that on a two stroke.
Ummm...no. That isn't why they're successful. The 4-strokes are successful because the factories pushed them on to the scene under lopsided rules. It wasn't until they stuck the best riders on the 4 strokes that they started winning. The smokers were never given a fair shot at making an amazing bike. Had the rules been 350cc smoker vs. 450cc thumper, it's highly likely we'd be seeing the smokers in the pits instead of the thumpers.

The only reason the smokers seem so tweaked is because they were limited in displacement by such a large margin that the manufacturers had to squeeze the shit out of the much smaller engines to keep pace...and that significantly narrows the powerband. And, yes, you can ride around in one gear on a 500, while still walking away from the 450 thumpers. Your statement that you can't means you don't know what it's really about.
Crush
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Crush 3/10/2013 3:55pm
3/10/2013 3:55pm
Yeah TWMX had an article on KW's bike that said something stupid, like 65-70... But he is a big dude and wanted it all...
TerryK
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TerryK 3/10/2013 3:56pm
3/10/2013 3:56pm
ando wrote:
Only thing is the 500 will sign off by about 8000rpm, the 450 will still be making useable power up to 10,000 or 11,000rpm. That's the...
Only thing is the 500 will sign off by about 8000rpm, the 450 will still be making useable power up to 10,000 or 11,000rpm. That's the key to why modern four strokes are successful race bikes, regardless of additional weight and about how a 2 stroke makes more power/torque per cc - it's the fact that they can be made to make as much useable horsepower as the 500's used to have, plus the vast useable rev range. There's just no way you can make a current two stroke with that broad power/torque.

I'm guessing these bikes make somewhere in the region of 60 horsepower (most stock 450's now have figures in the mid-high 50's). I'm also guessing that these guys can ride most tracks in probably only two gears, and a good number of them in only one gear. No chance of doing that on a two stroke.
The thing most people don't understand is that you HAVE to have a very high revving four stroke engine if you want it to make power. Try riding a 450 without revving over 8000rpm. The thing will barely be able to get out of its own way, but above 8k is where things start to happen so this whole deal about modern four strokes having much broader powerbands than 2 strokes is pure fantasy.
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Outsider 3/10/2013 4:05pm
3/10/2013 4:05pm
jtomasik wrote:
Ummm...no. That isn't why they're successful. The 4-strokes are successful because the factories pushed them on to the scene under lopsided rules. It wasn't until they...
Ummm...no. That isn't why they're successful. The 4-strokes are successful because the factories pushed them on to the scene under lopsided rules. It wasn't until they stuck the best riders on the 4 strokes that they started winning. The smokers were never given a fair shot at making an amazing bike. Had the rules been 350cc smoker vs. 450cc thumper, it's highly likely we'd be seeing the smokers in the pits instead of the thumpers.

The only reason the smokers seem so tweaked is because they were limited in displacement by such a large margin that the manufacturers had to squeeze the shit out of the much smaller engines to keep pace...and that significantly narrows the powerband. And, yes, you can ride around in one gear on a 500, while still walking away from the 450 thumpers. Your statement that you can't means you don't know what it's really about.
I disagree about the factories pushing 4 strokes on us. There was a huge demand for thumpers... when I got my YZ400 even the diehard two stroke dudes wouldn't get off the thing when I let em ride it.

People wanted something different, and, now we got it.
KLM85
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KLM85 3/10/2013 4:13pm
3/10/2013 4:13pm Edited Date/Time 3/10/2013 4:14pm
The ironic part is that had 2 stroke development continue 250cc would still be enough. The most efficient engines in the world are 2 strokes and they surpass 50% thermal efficiency. Any of the current two strokes in dirtbikes have an incredible amount of potential left for development. Unless batteries get better extremely fast they will be back.

I see 4 strokes as a band aid until the cleaner 2 strokes are back.
THE_NOOB
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THE_NOOB 3/10/2013 4:14pm
3/10/2013 4:14pm
I agree, I love um both, whether it's a Screaming CR250R two stroke or a Booming high reving 450 4-stroke, they're both awesome Dirtbikes and were lucky to still have the option of riding either.
gotwings
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gotwings 3/10/2013 4:35pm
3/10/2013 4:35pm
RACEGUY wrote:
Any engine builder will tell you, it's not what it's got, it's where you put it. If my rider likes to come in really hot and...
Any engine builder will tell you, it's not what it's got, it's where you put it. If my rider likes to come in really hot and totally shut the throttle at entry to turns, he needs a smooth delivery (transition) from small throttle openings to full throttle. If my guy likes to carry mid-range RPM through entry and mid-turn, the mill can hit a lot harder coming off while maintaining a good level of throttle control. You need to design the power delivery to the rider's style. You want the HP and torque curves to cross at the right place for your rider. If you have 65 horsepower and 40 foot pounds of torque to work with, you want it to be available to your rider when his "style" needs it. Too much too early or too late, and you've missed the mark. I've seen guys with dyno numbers that will make you do a second-take, but the lap times don't do the engine build justice. Without conforming the curves to the rider, you might as well be feeding hundred dollar bills into the intake. People who test drive electrics are always impressed by the command they have over torque. It's instantaneous and perfectly progressive. Internal combustion engines are always a compromise. Can't think of any bikes in the same class that would touch my rotary-valve KX125 for HP at the time, but the powerband was about 1200 RPM wide. Bog or blast may not be the best way to go.
Hp and torque always cross at 5250. Any good engine builder will tell you that. Its in the formula...
josh8811
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josh8811 3/10/2013 5:22pm
3/10/2013 5:22pm
- I own, and regularly ride both a 2smoke (2012 300XC) and a 4stroke (2013 450SX)

I've always been a die hard 2 stroke rider and only in the last two years have I begun riding the 4 strokes. It's a pure fantasy to think even the modern 2strokes preforms as well on a track as a 4 stroke. It's also a fantasy to think you can get you heavy ass 4 stroke to work as well in the trees and gnar as a 2 stroke.. Each have different applications and different strong points.. All of you engineer wanna-be's can argue torque, HP, useable HP, etc... I'll ride my stroker on the track, sand, and more opened areas, and my smoker in the tight gnar..

It's funny how emotional you ladies get defending the 2 stroke instead of mounting an intelligent discussion based on facts and seat time..

There's no better track bike made for a normal joe (like myself) than a 350SXF
Kartwheel84c 3/10/2013 5:47pm
3/10/2013 5:47pm
AMA Pro dirt track 450s make 80+ HP but it would not be useable in an MX/SX environment other than on the start.
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MR. X 3/10/2013 6:07pm
3/10/2013 6:07pm
RACEGUY wrote:
Any engine builder will tell you, it's not what it's got, it's where you put it. If my rider likes to come in really hot and...
Any engine builder will tell you, it's not what it's got, it's where you put it. If my rider likes to come in really hot and totally shut the throttle at entry to turns, he needs a smooth delivery (transition) from small throttle openings to full throttle. If my guy likes to carry mid-range RPM through entry and mid-turn, the mill can hit a lot harder coming off while maintaining a good level of throttle control. You need to design the power delivery to the rider's style. You want the HP and torque curves to cross at the right place for your rider. If you have 65 horsepower and 40 foot pounds of torque to work with, you want it to be available to your rider when his "style" needs it. Too much too early or too late, and you've missed the mark. I've seen guys with dyno numbers that will make you do a second-take, but the lap times don't do the engine build justice. Without conforming the curves to the rider, you might as well be feeding hundred dollar bills into the intake. People who test drive electrics are always impressed by the command they have over torque. It's instantaneous and perfectly progressive. Internal combustion engines are always a compromise. Can't think of any bikes in the same class that would touch my rotary-valve KX125 for HP at the time, but the powerband was about 1200 RPM wide. Bog or blast may not be the best way to go.
I have an honest question ,not trying to start a argument . You stated that you need to adjust the point that HP and torque cross , I thought that gasoline engines HP and torque cross at 5200 rpms or so .
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BobbyM 3/10/2013 6:32pm
3/10/2013 6:32pm
DrSweden wrote:
Yawn, they got nothing on my YZ125, with the Doma pipe/PC-muffler it tears new butt holes on these silly tractors! Grinning
RACEGUY wrote:
This is why running 2-strokes and 4-strokes on the same track at the same time is a non-starter. The sophisticated throttle control of a good 2-T...
This is why running 2-strokes and 4-strokes on the same track at the same time is a non-starter. The sophisticated throttle control of a good 2-T rider with a narrow powerband begs for cornering speed/momentum. The lazy point-n-shoot lines of 4-Ts wreck the track and the lines for those who actually know how to race. It's like comparing unlimited hydroplanes to F-1 outboards. One is about skill and finesse, the other is about simply holding on to the horsepower.
Best post I have ever read concerning this subject.

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