Evolution of the sport/jumps

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4/29/2018 5:52 PM

I went to a local race today (just watching) and I
Was amazed at how everyone was doing most of the jumps
Especially a 30 foot or so triple
I didn't measure it but guessing ..anyway
I saw maybe 2 or 3 people on big bikes not hitting it
In the early to mid 90,s only the A and B riders would have been doing this jump
It looked intimidating to me
And there where people jumping it that looked like they had no business jumping it lol but still not crashing so there is that , but people with slower lap times to put it nicely ...
Must be the four strokes
Just make it easier I'm guessing ??

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4/29/2018 5:54 PM

Not the Triple I was talking about I didn't get a pic of that but here is a big table top most where jumping also Photo

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4/29/2018 5:58 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/29/2018 6:00 PM

Fun day finally warm first couple races here this yr got cancelled due to snow
Little rutty but nice
And I was surprised a how fast everyone looked (most) Photo Photo

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4/29/2018 5:58 PM

4 strokes are definitely part of why mid-pack C riders can clear every booter on the track. It's the rider's responsibility to ride within their skill level but that doesn't mean Joe Schmoe doesn't want to huck a fatty from time to time.

I don't really care about the 2 vs. 4 thing as I have owned both and both are fun to me.

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4/29/2018 6:18 PM

4 strokes are definitely part of it. You didn’t really see beginners doing most of the jumps on their 125. But now, put those same guys on a 250f and they jump them no problem.

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2017 RMZ450
2005 YZ250-sold :,(
1998 YZ250
2005 KX250F

80% of the time it works every time
IG @2HRacing
Thanks to : Factory Effex, N2Dirt, Acerbis, DT1, Fasthouse, Matix, FMF, ASV, 100% & Mika Metals

4/29/2018 10:02 PM

It’s definitely easier to go faster on a 4 stroke.

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4/29/2018 10:11 PM

FYI - I highly doubt the triple you are talking about is 30 ft. A 30 ft table IMO is pretty small. Any triple should be in the +70 ft range (or much bigger).

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4/29/2018 11:28 PM

I remember when I was about 14 I got my first 250f and immediately started doing jumps I normally wouldn't. I was a back of the pack beginner until 15. I think it has to do with how easy it is to guage a jump on a 4 stroke. Roll it on and sail

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4/29/2018 11:58 PM

TbonesPop wrote:

FYI - I highly doubt the triple you are talking about is 30 ft. A 30 ft table IMO is pretty small. Any triple should be in the +70 ft range (or much bigger).

Sounds correct. Doubling it would be a harder landing.

Tarz see the same thing when I ride. Guys jumping things all looped, no skill but they still get it done.

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4/30/2018 11:34 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/30/2018 11:35 AM

I'm one of the big bike riders who doesn't jump everything. I'm female, and just don't the drive to win practice day trophies. silly

My closest track is made by and for A/B riders. There really isn't much I feel comfortable trying. Most everyone clears every jump on the track, but I'm good only jumping halfway. Yesterday I spent a lot of time on the figure 8 track to keep out of the way of fast guys.

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Ride like a girl!!!
2016 KTM 500 EXC-F
Current project: 2007 Kawasaki KX250-R7 retro build
Current project #2: 1987 Kawasaki KX250-E1 rider/racer resto
1989 KX125 resto
1987 RM250 resto

4/30/2018 11:38 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/30/2018 11:47 AM

My favorite local-ish track (now closed) was ICR near Macon. The owners made every big jump so that slower riders could hit them and feel like they did something. The largest jump was shaped like a camel's back. You could land halfway on the down slope, or gradually increase your distance to clear to the second downslope. Before it closed I started hitting the whole length.

There was another double-ish style jump at the finish line that I did most of the time. It had a long straight leading to it, and a 150 straight into a sweeping left after. It was super safe.


Photo

Photo


Loved the dirt at ICR more than anything.
Photo

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Ride like a girl!!!
2016 KTM 500 EXC-F
Current project: 2007 Kawasaki KX250-R7 retro build
Current project #2: 1987 Kawasaki KX250-E1 rider/racer resto
1989 KX125 resto
1987 RM250 resto

4/30/2018 11:44 AM

It is more than just 4-stroke power. The bikes themselves are so much better than even 10-15 years ago. Suspension and handling is so good that it gives beginners a huge advantage even starting out. And the new minis are on another planet compared to just a few years ago. You have kids that are huckin' triples on their 85s. Then they move up to the big bike novice class and they are flying straight away.

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4/30/2018 12:11 PM

ama530 wrote:

It is more than just 4-stroke power. The bikes themselves are so much better than even 10-15 years ago. Suspension and handling is so good that it gives beginners a huge advantage even starting out. And the new minis are on another planet compared to just a few years ago. You have kids that are huckin' triples on their 85s. Then they move up to the big bike novice class and they are flying straight away.

That's a point a lot of people overlook when they start complaining about beginners jumping everything on a track...the bikes are just so much better-right out of the box-and not just HP...but power delivery, handing, suspension, chassis development, etc. etc. That it just doesn't take as much skill to hit jumps any more.

Imagine what the guys from the double shock days, said about the beginner riders buying single shock bikes in the 80's..."those shocks take all the skill out of riding", "any beginner can get on one and go fast", "they are ruining racing...it's all about jumping now", "it takes no skill"...aka: all the same stuff guys now days say about the four strokes...and they blame the four strokes, but really they are just blaming bike progression.

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4/30/2018 12:24 PM

I can't wait for electrics to take over so we can move away from 2st/4st debate and division of the last 15yrs.

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4/30/2018 12:26 PM

reded wrote:

I can't wait for electrics to take over so we can move away from 2st/4st debate and division of the last 15yrs.

We will just move into the 2s/4s/ebike debate

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4/30/2018 12:28 PM

reded wrote:

I can't wait for electrics to take over so we can move away from 2st/4st debate and division of the last 15yrs.

Something tells me ICE vs. E-bike will be worse

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4/30/2018 12:50 PM

ama530 wrote:

It is more than just 4-stroke power. The bikes themselves are so much better than even 10-15 years ago. Suspension and handling is so good that it gives beginners a huge advantage even starting out. And the new minis are on another planet compared to just a few years ago. You have kids that are huckin' triples on their 85s. Then they move up to the big bike novice class and they are flying straight away.

Titan1 wrote:

That's a point a lot of people overlook when they start complaining about beginners jumping everything on a track...the bikes are just so much better-right out of the box-and not just HP...but power delivery, handing, suspension, chassis development, etc. etc. That it just doesn't take as much skill to hit jumps any more.

Imagine what the guys from the double shock days, said about the beginner riders buying single shock bikes in the 80's..."those shocks take all the skill out of riding", "any beginner can get on one and go fast", "they are ruining racing...it's all about jumping now", "it takes no skill"...aka: all the same stuff guys now days say about the four strokes...and they blame the four strokes, but really they are just blaming bike progression.

I agree. Modern bikes are so easy to ride fast. They let you make mistakes that would have bit you hard a couple decades ago. I can’t believe how far along my 16 KX450F is compared to my 00 YZ426F. Honestly the new 450s seem to be very easy to ride and are very forgiving bikes. Something you would never say about the 500 smokers of yesterday.

And yesterday I was on my 450 all day, hopped on my buddies 17 YZ250, and sent the 90’ double first lap. So it’s definitely not a 2 v 4 debate, more like new v old. (To be fair I do own a 13 YZ250, it’s just in pieces right now)

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4/30/2018 12:52 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/30/2018 1:19 PM

Not sure on the math/angles, but jumps used to be less steep and more distance. Todays tracks mostly have jump faces that create height and suspension compression which results in distance. Never been a fan of the steeper jump faces, I suspect many of our Legends and Hero's feel the same way which is why so few of them race as Vets.



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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

4/30/2018 1:02 PM

queen of spodes wrote:

My favorite local-ish track (now closed) was ICR near Macon. The owners made every big jump so that slower riders could hit them and feel like they did something. The largest jump was shaped like a camel's back. You could land halfway on the down slope, or gradually increase your distance to clear to the second downslope. Before it closed I started hitting the whole length.

There was another double-ish style jump at the finish line that I did most of the time. It had a long straight leading to it, and a 150 straight into a sweeping left after. It was super safe.


Photo

Photo


Loved the dirt at ICR more than anything.
Photo

I Loved ICR! Those back to back triples on the front straight were great!

I remember one summer, I jumped that decent sized step up from the bottom section, and almost landed on a huge rattlesnake chilling on the track. Why did it ever close? Proximity to residence??

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4/30/2018 1:26 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/30/2018 1:27 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

Not sure on the math/angles, but jumps used to be less steep and more distance. Todays tracks mostly have jump faces that create height and suspension compression which results in distance. Never been a fan of the steeper jump faces, I suspect many of our Legends and Hero's feel the same way which is why so few of them race as Vets.



Yep. Older style were fly away jumps. Now they are launch jumps.

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4/30/2018 1:33 PM

rongi#401 wrote:

I remember when I was about 14 I got my first 250f and immediately started doing jumps I normally wouldn't. I was a back of the pack beginner until 15. I think it has to do with how easy it is to guage a jump on a 4 stroke. Roll it on and sail

See if you are with me on this...

If I would have stayed on a 125 or 250 2 stroke instead of going to 250fs and 450s, there would have been plenty of jumps that I wouldn't have even thought about jumping. One thing I'm looking forward to with being back on a 250 2 stroke is the fact that I won't be tempted to jump certain things because I won't have the same power that I would on a 450. I'd have to hit everything perfect leading up to the jump just to even think about going for it, but with my 450 all I had to do was twist the throttle a little further and it carried me over almost everything. I see guys at the track all the time rolling slow through a corner then grab a handful and have no problem clearing jumps out of corners. Not the case with guys on 2 strokes

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2017 RMZ450
2005 YZ250-sold :,(
1998 YZ250
2005 KX250F

80% of the time it works every time
IG @2HRacing
Thanks to : Factory Effex, N2Dirt, Acerbis, DT1, Fasthouse, Matix, FMF, ASV, 100% & Mika Metals

4/30/2018 1:42 PM

rongi#401 wrote:

I remember when I was about 14 I got my first 250f and immediately started doing jumps I normally wouldn't. I was a back of the pack beginner until 15. I think it has to do with how easy it is to guage a jump on a 4 stroke. Roll it on and sail

mattyhamz2 wrote:

See if you are with me on this...

If I would have stayed on a 125 or 250 2 stroke instead of going to 250fs and 450s, there would have been plenty of jumps that I wouldn't have even thought about jumping. One thing I'm looking forward to with being back on a 250 2 stroke is the fact that I won't be tempted to jump certain things because I won't have the same power that I would on a 450. I'd have to hit everything perfect leading up to the jump just to even think about going for it, but with my 450 all I had to do was twist the throttle a little further and it carried me over almost everything. I see guys at the track all the time rolling slow through a corner then grab a handful and have no problem clearing jumps out of corners. Not the case with guys on 2 strokes

Maybe on a 125, but I don’t feel like I’m giving up much in the way of roll on power on a 250. It’s harder to find traction on the two stroke, but that’s about it. My YZ250 is so smooth, and has an incredible mid range, that it makes it a very easy to ride bike.

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4/30/2018 1:51 PM

rongi#401 wrote:

I remember when I was about 14 I got my first 250f and immediately started doing jumps I normally wouldn't. I was a back of the pack beginner until 15. I think it has to do with how easy it is to guage a jump on a 4 stroke. Roll it on and sail

mattyhamz2 wrote:

See if you are with me on this...

If I would have stayed on a 125 or 250 2 stroke instead of going to 250fs and 450s, there would have been plenty of jumps that I wouldn't have even thought about jumping. One thing I'm looking forward to with being back on a 250 2 stroke is the fact that I won't be tempted to jump certain things because I won't have the same power that I would on a 450. I'd have to hit everything perfect leading up to the jump just to even think about going for it, but with my 450 all I had to do was twist the throttle a little further and it carried me over almost everything. I see guys at the track all the time rolling slow through a corner then grab a handful and have no problem clearing jumps out of corners. Not the case with guys on 2 strokes

JBecker 72 wrote:

Maybe on a 125, but I don’t feel like I’m giving up much in the way of roll on power on a 250. It’s harder to find traction on the two stroke, but that’s about it. My YZ250 is so smooth, and has an incredible mid range, that it makes it a very easy to ride bike.

agreed, when the dirt is loamy a 250 2 stroker will blow the doors off a 250f

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4/30/2018 2:06 PM

Wade221 wrote:

I Loved ICR! Those back to back triples on the front straight were great!

I remember one summer, I jumped that decent sized step up from the bottom section, and almost landed on a huge rattlesnake chilling on the track. Why did it ever close? Proximity to residence??

Yeah, ICR was a hour & a half drive for us but worth every minute when we got there. I switched to Bremen once ICR shut down (no idea why?) but grew weary of the hour+ haul... ended up getting a dual sport. Just got a 350 sxf and am restoring a 07 kx250 two stroke. Miss moto. Miss safe and less jumpy tracks more than anything.

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Ride like a girl!!!
2016 KTM 500 EXC-F
Current project: 2007 Kawasaki KX250-R7 retro build
Current project #2: 1987 Kawasaki KX250-E1 rider/racer resto
1989 KX125 resto
1987 RM250 resto

4/30/2018 3:33 PM

queen of spodes wrote:

My favorite local-ish track (now closed) was ICR near Macon. The owners made every big jump so that slower riders could hit them and feel like they did something. The largest jump was shaped like a camel's back. You could land halfway on the down slope, or gradually increase your distance to clear to the second downslope. Before it closed I started hitting the whole length.

There was another double-ish style jump at the finish line that I did most of the time. It had a long straight leading to it, and a 150 straight into a sweeping left after. It was super safe.


Photo

Photo


Loved the dirt at ICR more than anything.
Photo

Wade221 wrote:

I Loved ICR! Those back to back triples on the front straight were great!

I remember one summer, I jumped that decent sized step up from the bottom section, and almost landed on a huge rattlesnake chilling on the track. Why did it ever close? Proximity to residence??

queen of spodes wrote:

Yeah, ICR was a hour & a half drive for us but worth every minute when we got there. I switched to Bremen once ICR shut down (no idea why?) but grew weary of the hour+ haul... ended up getting a dual sport. Just got a 350 sxf and am restoring a 07 kx250 two stroke. Miss moto. Miss safe and less jumpy tracks more than anything.

Last time I rode ICR was in 2009, it was fun, but closed not too long after. I remember there was a double on the back straight I wouldnt jump on my 250F because my suspension was super soft (I was 220lbs), everything else I jumped within 3 or 4 laps. Did you guys ever ride Roost Creek/Iveys?

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4/30/2018 6:06 PM

TJMX947 wrote:

Last time I rode ICR was in 2009, it was fun, but closed not too long after. I remember there was a double on the back straight I wouldnt jump on my 250F because my suspension was super soft (I was 220lbs), everything else I jumped within 3 or 4 laps. Did you guys ever ride Roost Creek/Iveys?

Was Roost Creek the spot just off 475? If its the place I'm thinking of, it was semi private, had to pay a yearly fee. Loved that track.

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Ride like a girl!!!
2016 KTM 500 EXC-F
Current project: 2007 Kawasaki KX250-R7 retro build
Current project #2: 1987 Kawasaki KX250-E1 rider/racer resto
1989 KX125 resto
1987 RM250 resto

4/30/2018 6:22 PM

queen of spodes wrote:

My favorite local-ish track (now closed) was ICR near Macon. The owners made every big jump so that slower riders could hit them and feel like they did something. The largest jump was shaped like a camel's back. You could land halfway on the down slope, or gradually increase your distance to clear to the second downslope. Before it closed I started hitting the whole length.

There was another double-ish style jump at the finish line that I did most of the time. It had a long straight leading to it, and a 150 straight into a sweeping left after. It was super safe.


Photo

Photo


Loved the dirt at ICR more than anything.
Photo

Wade221 wrote:

I Loved ICR! Those back to back triples on the front straight were great!

I remember one summer, I jumped that decent sized step up from the bottom section, and almost landed on a huge rattlesnake chilling on the track. Why did it ever close? Proximity to residence??

A huge rattlesnake. Canadian winters suck, but NO RATTLE SNAKES!

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In my 60’s and still loving dirt scoots up here in the frozen north.

2021 Husky 501s

5/1/2018 10:34 AM

Johnny Depp wrote:

Not sure on the math/angles, but jumps used to be less steep and more distance. Todays tracks mostly have jump faces that create height and suspension compression which results in distance. Never been a fan of the steeper jump faces, I suspect many of our Legends and Hero's feel the same way which is why so few of them race as Vets.



I've built a ton of jumps over the ears and the math/technique has always fascinated me. The final angle of the jump is only part of the equation the transition is possibly a bigger factor in what a jump face does. The bigger part of making a jump work is the landing but not as many builders understand that. A properly built jump that throws you up is safer than than one that throws you out since it slows the rider down.
Landings with convex faces verse concave. Large rounded landing decks that have enough break over so the frame doesn't catch if shorted, proper run out after a jump section, etc. all make things safer. It's not hard to make big safe jumps that beginners to pros can have fun on and be safe you just have to plan them out correctly.
Thumpers may be part of it but it's mostly just how times change. My kids jumped/jump things on 2-stroke minis that 20 years ago wouldn't have even been considered simply because it's common now. Suspension is also better but mostly it's just because riders see other riders doing it and learn from that. Look at the backflip. Once it was done once it quickly went from impossible to commonplace..........

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5/1/2018 10:52 AM

Good ole Mankato ! The triple into the rollers is way easier than you think.

Those pictures of the ruts going down the hill don't do justice for how gnarley they were. I'm still surprised they even pulled the race off since there was still snow on the track on Thursday !

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5/1/2018 12:06 PM

Southwick is the best track in new England, no big jumps you don't need big jumps to have a great track

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