Everts in '92, and What's Maybe Changed in Supercross...

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12/9/2018 10:40 AM

The Herlings thread was interesting but getting a little personal and weird between some of the opposing sides, so I thought out of respect to the conversation, as well as a question Bearuno had about Stefan Everts' brief time in supercross, I would post it here before it went off the rails again...

In 1992 there was this surge in interest by Europe-based riders in coming to America for the early SX rounds, in part because they had seen how Jean-Michel Bayle had risen to the top, and also in part because a lot of Americans were the GPs and it made sense to come home and do some winter work. Everts, who was always interested and respectful of supercross, but not necessarily interested in going all-in, decided to test the waters with them. As a result, at some early races, nearly one-quarter of the field in an AMA Supercross main event was GP riders: Everts, Trampas Parker and his Honda teammate Micky Dymond, Bader Manneh... Stefan did well, but like JMB in '89 and Albertyn in '95 and Tortelli in '98, there was a learning curve for sure. (Interestingly, the two world champs that year, Donny Schmit (250) and Greg Albertyn (125) did not come and race SX in the winter of '92.)

With all due respect to Herlings' wins in '17 at Ironman and Jacksonville, the comment that they are tracks our guys "raced for years" is not true, as Ironman has only been on the schedule for four years and it's been a mudder all but once, and the MXGP was the first big race ever held at WW Ranch. (And remember, Eli and Jeffrey split moto wins there.) It wasn't like they were at Glen Helen, where they really have ridden most of their lives, and our guys did pretty good at the old MXGPs there... I have no doubt that if Jeffrey committed himself to SX he could be very successful, but he would probably have had to do it earlier, like Kenny and Marvin and DV12 did, so as not to miss his window where he could still adapt to it, which I believe is what happened to Albertyn here and also Shayne King and Tyla Rattray. Same would go for Cairoli and Paulin, and the same went for RV when he went the other way to MXGP after ten years of SX/MX in America.

So what's changed? In my personal opinion, and please think about this before you flame away, SX is no longer to the advantage of U.S.-based riders in motocross like it was in the eighties and nineties because they are not able to go wide-open like they used to indoors. The bikes (450s especially) are so much more powerful than they used to be, but the stadiums are still the same size, that racing has become about management, not pure speed. They are literally riding in the same gear most of the time and nowhere near as aggressive as they used to be because they have to restrict themselves in order to not literally jump out of the stadium. Our development is based in large part on a completely different type of racing, and I don't know how we change that right now.

As Roger DeCoster said, the emphasis in America is much more on supercross than motocross, and we are paying a price at the MXON for that because bike-development needs and riding technique in the U.S. has evolved/devolved on different paths than Europe, where it's all MX for KTM/Husqvarna (and shows in their results). In some ways, it's becoming as different as F1 is to NASCAR. It's still car racing, and there are badasses on both sides, but it's also an ocean apart in how it all really works out on either side ...

Just my two pence.

DC
Racer X

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12/9/2018 10:47 AM

How old was Musquin when he moved to the US? Seems like he successfully stretched the "window".

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12/9/2018 10:51 AM

Not much to add here except I remember watching Everts yard sale big time on a step on step off at Anaheim. I believe he was running in the top ten at the time. I'm pretty confident Herlings would adapt much better than Albertyn did.

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12/9/2018 11:00 AM
Edited Date/Time: 12/9/2018 11:01 AM

How old was Musquin when he moved to the US? Seems like he successfully stretched the "window".

The French are different in that they have a domestic national SX championship, so guys like Pichon, Roncada, Vuillemin, Pourcel, Ferrnadis and Marvin come with some inherent skills that are not afforded to the Belgians or Dutch or South Africans or British (remember Anstie's and Searle's struggles here)...

That said, Marvin came in 2011, shortly after winning his second MX2 world title. I believe he was just 20 years old.

DC
MX Sports

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12/9/2018 11:04 AM
Edited Date/Time: 12/9/2018 11:05 AM

I agree that SX has taken away some of the speed from outdoor mx skills but I also believe outdoor MX in the US is on its way out the door and will continue to shrink on the national level until its only a few rounds. Local MX has decreased also with more riders only doing a limited amount of the bigger races like LL qualifiers and Moto playground races etc and the racing every weekend at the local level has died off.

Ok so the USA does not win the MXDN because of it is a draw back but SX is the future as far as professional level racing in the US because its where the money is but the pool of riders gets smaller also because of it. I would much rather spend my money to go watch a SX than a outdoor but now that I am my late 50s I would much rather ride out door MX tracks than SX even at local level. But back in the 1980s when we had lots of local SX races in Colorado those were the only races I wanted to do and only rode a couple of the the good local MX tracks.

I only watch outdoor nationals on TV But spend my money and go to several SX races a year even though in the 70s 80s and 90s I would hit every national I could and hike my ass all over from early in the morning to long after the racing is done so peoples preferences change as they get older and I do believe the racing crowd in general has gotten older with out having the infusion of new riders at local levels.

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Ed Johnson

12/9/2018 11:13 AM

lostboy819 wrote:

I agree that SX has taken away some of the speed from outdoor mx skills but I also believe outdoor MX in the US is on its way out the door and will continue to shrink on the national level until its only a few rounds. Local MX has decreased also with more riders only doing a limited amount of the bigger races like LL qualifiers and Moto playground races etc and the racing every weekend at the local level has died off.

Ok so the USA does not win the MXDN because of it is a draw back but SX is the future as far as professional level racing in the US because its where the money is but the pool of riders gets smaller also because of it. I would much rather spend my money to go watch a SX than a outdoor but now that I am my late 50s I would much rather ride out door MX tracks than SX even at local level. But back in the 1980s when we had lots of local SX races in Colorado those were the only races I wanted to do and only rode a couple of the the good local MX tracks.

I only watch outdoor nationals on TV But spend my money and go to several SX races a year even though in the 70s 80s and 90s I would hit every national I could and hike my ass all over from early in the morning to long after the racing is done so peoples preferences change as they get older and I do believe the racing crowd in general has gotten older with out having the infusion of new riders at local levels.

Local MX has decreased also with more riders only doing a limited amount of the bigger races like LL qualifiers and Moto playground races etc and the racing every weekend at the local level has died off.

I would like to hear DC's opinion on this and if there are discussions/policy ideas on how to nip this and grow local racing. It can't be good to see/hear that a race entry count of 200 (not didn't say 200 riders...) is a good day at a local mx race.

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12/9/2018 11:14 AM

I like it the way it is. Winter SX, Summer MX.

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12/9/2018 11:28 AM

Ramrod wrote:

I like it the way it is. Winter SX, Summer MX.

Yup. I love the MXoN but all this talk of what needs to change on the US side for that single race is a little much.

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12/9/2018 11:44 AM
Edited Date/Time: 12/9/2018 7:22 PM

stvh wrote:

Not much to add here except I remember watching Everts yard sale big time on a step on step off at Anaheim. I believe he was running in the top ten at the time. I'm pretty confident Herlings would adapt much better than Albertyn did.

And, we've seen every single rider out there, "yard sale", even the Greats of SX .

Just as we do in MX - everyone "yard sales" it, every now and then.

Everts did pretty well, considering he was a 19 year old, that went straight into the 250s. Go to DCs Racer X Vault, and have a look, or, go back to that Herlings bun fight, and see the results I put up. He qualified to the Mains in most of the events he did, with a couple of top 10s.

At the same time, McGrath was still racing in the 125s. And, he was almost ( by just a few days) a year older than Everts. Stefan won the 125 World Title in 91 - the first of his 10 World Championships - and just went straight into the 250SX series. Go have a look at the 'names' he placed in front of, a fair few times. Yes, he didn't win - which a fair few drongos here will undoubtedly latch onto, but it's always been a hell of a thing to qualify for a Premier class SX Main, in the USA. At least I think it is.

His 28th - they had a big field (30?) in those days at Daytona - I think it might have been due to a "yard sale", or a mechanical. That's happened to a fair few riders, even, and including, some Super Stars of SX, there. Perhaps DC can recall what happened?

I expect most Americans to not know Stefan raced a few 250 SXs, but I'm surprised that so many non Americans seem to not know he did.

Let's hope Stefan gets through the Malaria he's been hospitalised with. It's no joke - a couple of friends of mine did a trip to Africa a decade or so back , and one of then died there from it.

For the other fellow : Marvin Musquin - he went to the US in 2011, born 19th or 30th December ( both dates given in Wikipedia) 1989, so 21 years old at the time. Seems like he's been there forever, now.

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12/9/2018 1:06 PM

In my opinion, you'd have to be pretty naive to think that Tomac or any other top contender is gonna go for broke at the MXDN when there's a million dollar race a week later. Tomac got owned at the Des Nations but he made a million bucks at Monster Cup. All those years when RC and others were winning the MXDN, the Monster Cup didn't even exist. A million dollars for one day of work is a big deal, unless your name is Warren Buffet.

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12/9/2018 1:13 PM

Davey is 1000000% correct about the speed indoors, plus in the early years the euros even banned double jumps so any time a track was gnarly the euros weren’t as good on them. Nowadays the euros jump even bigger jumps so it’s evened out

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12/9/2018 1:22 PM

"The bikes (450s especially) are so much more powerful than they used to be, but the stadiums are still the same size, that racing has become about management, not pure speed. They are literally riding in the same gear most of the time and nowhere near as aggressive as they used to be because they have to restrict themselves in order to not literally jump out of the stadium."

So your saying that the 250 riders might be faster outdoors?

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12/9/2018 1:23 PM

lostboy819, I appreciate that you aren't a fan of outdoor mx, but it's not shrinking here in the U.S. by any means -- we just extended the NBC deal and all of the major sponsors for three more years. What is shrinking is local racing, and everyone is looking for answers there. Supercross isn't shrinking either but the budgets for teams to develop both SX and MX bikes is, as bike sales haven't rebounded with the economy like we all hoped, and supercross remains the leader here in the states.

Thanks for watching from afar.

DC
Racer X

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12/9/2018 1:24 PM

BikeGuy321 wrote:

In my opinion, you'd have to be pretty naive to think that Tomac or any other top contender is gonna go for broke at the MXDN when there's a million dollar race a week later. Tomac got owned at the Des Nations but he made a million bucks at Monster Cup. All those years when RC and others were winning the MXDN, the Monster Cup didn't even exist. A million dollars for one day of work is a big deal, unless your name is Warren Buffet.

If you were there, you'd know that they got owned. Pure and simple, and it's just the way the pendulum is swinging at the moment.

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12/9/2018 1:39 PM

Michael ... I was with you until the words “NASCAR” and “Badass” whistling

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Don’t piss off the old people - the older they get the less “life in prison” is a deterrent for them!

2020.5 KTM 450 SXF FE
2006 KX250

12/9/2018 1:42 PM
Edited Date/Time: 12/9/2018 1:47 PM

BikeGuy321 wrote:

In my opinion, you'd have to be pretty naive to think that Tomac or any other top contender is gonna go for broke at the MXDN when there's a million dollar race a week later. Tomac got owned at the Des Nations but he made a million bucks at Monster Cup. All those years when RC and others were winning the MXDN, the Monster Cup didn't even exist. A million dollars for one day of work is a big deal, unless your name is Warren Buffet.

Underground wrote:

If you were there, you'd know that they got owned. Pure and simple, and it's just the way the pendulum is swinging at the moment.

I'm not Saying that Herlings isn't a better outdoor rider. I'm saying that Tomac was probably riding Supercross the week of Des Nations, Just showed up at Des Nations and probably gave less than 100% effort the whole time. What I'm saying is there's no incentive for someone like him to keep riding MX until MXDN and be more concerned with that race VS a possible million dollar payoff. They're just gonna show up and wing it. You can't be equally ready for the first Supercross of the year AND MXDN.

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12/9/2018 1:48 PM

Would you show up to a world race wearing the American flag, on American home soil, and just ride around to conserve yourself and look like a second tier rider?

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12/9/2018 1:49 PM
Edited Date/Time: 12/9/2018 2:08 PM

Underground wrote:

Would you show up to a world race wearing the American flag, on American home soil, and just ride around to conserve yourself and look like a second tier rider?

For a better shot at a million dollars... Yeah!

Edit: For a better shot at a million dollars, when you're competing in a brutal sport where huge payouts are few and far between and most people retire because of nagging injuries before 35. Hell yeah!!

You'd rather have "bragging rights" than a extra million dollars?

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12/9/2018 2:17 PM

DC wrote:

How old was Musquin when he moved to the US? Seems like he successfully stretched the "window".

The French are different in that they have a domestic national SX championship, so guys like Pichon, Roncada, Vuillemin, Pourcel, Ferrnadis and Marvin come with some inherent skills that are not afforded to the Belgians or Dutch or South Africans or British (remember Anstie's and Searle's struggles here)...

That said, Marvin came in 2011, shortly after winning his second MX2 world title. I believe he was just 20 years old.

DC
MX Sports

Partially true. Because Pourcel, Musquin and Ferrandis did not ride french SX championship the way the old generation from the 90s (Pichon, Roncada, Vuillemin, Tortelli) rode it.
Only a very few races from time to time, not entire championships...
Mentality has changed a lot in Europe because of MXGP: the best riders (even the french ones) are not allowed by theirs GP teams to ride supercross anymore...

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12/9/2018 3:05 PM

DC wrote:

How old was Musquin when he moved to the US? Seems like he successfully stretched the "window".

The French are different in that they have a domestic national SX championship, so guys like Pichon, Roncada, Vuillemin, Pourcel, Ferrnadis and Marvin come with some inherent skills that are not afforded to the Belgians or Dutch or South Africans or British (remember Anstie's and Searle's struggles here)...

That said, Marvin came in 2011, shortly after winning his second MX2 world title. I believe he was just 20 years old.

DC
MX Sports

DC, why does RacerX list Ken Roczen's Hometown as somewhere in Germany when he doesn't win, and somewhere in Florida when he does win?

Same for Musquin: when he wins the race he's from Florida, when he doesn't win he's from France.

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12/9/2018 3:11 PM
Edited Date/Time: 12/9/2018 6:24 PM

DC wrote:

lostboy819, I appreciate that you aren't a fan of outdoor mx, but it's not shrinking here in the U.S. by any means -- we just extended the NBC deal and all of the major sponsors for three more years. What is shrinking is local racing, and everyone is looking for answers there. Supercross isn't shrinking either but the budgets for teams to develop both SX and MX bikes is, as bike sales haven't rebounded with the economy like we all hoped, and supercross remains the leader here in the states.

Thanks for watching from afar.

DC
Racer X

I am not saying I am not a fan of the outdoors I am saying as I got older I prefer to watch the Nationals on TV and not in person. I spent two months working with Dave and Russ to get the Lakewood track ready back when they got the national back, putting up fences, moving rocks from the track and digging them out of the hill etc all for my love of the sport, I didn't get paid or expect to be paid but Dave takes good care of his people and made it worth my wild. I prefer to see SX in person because its a much better place to take the family or friends who don't want to bake in the sun or rain etc.and just a better environment to go see a awesome race with the comforts of a modern stadium. cool

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Ed Johnson

12/9/2018 4:55 PM

It occurs to me that what I think, good or bad, matters not, as I'm in my fifties, and times have passed me by. I'm an obsolete relic, nothing more. Back a million years ago when I was young, flat fields were the LAST place you'd ever want to build a track. Not only that, but me and my buds thought nothing of constructing tracks on hilly pieces of land whose owners were completely unknown to us. The opposite is true now, as Supercross' rise to preminence has made hills almost antithetical to track design, and the ever-increasing risk of injury has made secure ownership of the land a necessity. One of my good friends is a renowned track builder. He built my (mostly) natural terrain track, but he's also built a large number of "flat-field" Supercross practice tracks, including some for guys who've wanted to go pro (and a couple have). In driving to my own track I drive past their tracks, and I often look to see if they've recently been injured riding, as the grass grows tall on their tracks whenever it happens - and it seems to me the grass grows tall on those tracks FAR too often. And so I ask, with all honesty: has the thrill of danger now replaced the thrill of competition as the foremost priority driving the sport here? And if it has, will the natural evolution of the sport necessitate MORE danger? Because if that's the case, then we're willingly leading the future of American motocross racing off a cliff, as no parent in their right mind would be willing to allow their children to engage in it. As I (an obsolete relic) see it, you youngsters need to change your priorities - and fast - or you'll watch this thing we all love die a slow, rather grisly, death.

Now get off my lawn.

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12/9/2018 5:26 PM
Edited Date/Time: 12/9/2018 5:27 PM

How about some sort of legit EMX style 2 stroke 125 action at the Nats instead of treating it like a circus sideshow? SX may be the emphasis, but that doesn't mean the Nats can't keep pace with the GPs and groom the young guys who run outdoors. Let's also shitcan the ridiculous farm field tilling that is called prep.

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vomiting equals disqualification.

12/9/2018 5:32 PM

Wasn't Everts just a month out of National Service prior to Houston, followed by Anaheim back in 1992?

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12/9/2018 6:39 PM

DC wrote:

lostboy819, I appreciate that you aren't a fan of outdoor mx, but it's not shrinking here in the U.S. by any means -- we just extended the NBC deal and all of the major sponsors for three more years. What is shrinking is local racing, and everyone is looking for answers there. Supercross isn't shrinking either but the budgets for teams to develop both SX and MX bikes is, as bike sales haven't rebounded with the economy like we all hoped, and supercross remains the leader here in the states.

Thanks for watching from afar.

DC
Racer X

True, I own a local track in a small town in Arizona and our numbers are half of what they used to be. I was talking to another track owner from the Phoenix area and he said that he’ll have 130 riders show up for a Saturday practice but can’t even get half that number to show up for a race.

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12/9/2018 7:18 PM
Edited Date/Time: 12/9/2018 9:43 PM

St Ann More wrote:

Wasn't Everts just a month out of National Service prior to Houston, followed by Anaheim back in 1992?

St Ann More :It must have been a bloody short National Service stint ( or the Belgians 'regard' for MX made for a very 'loose' national service time whistling - which a fair countries do - look to the amount of "Police" / "Firemen" / "Servicemen" that still have raced through their National Service - it was not always the Eastern Block countries that had fast riders in, or out of their uniform(s) ), as he'd done, and won the 125 World Champs in 91.
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12/9/2018 7:43 PM

DC wrote:

lostboy819, I appreciate that you aren't a fan of outdoor mx, but it's not shrinking here in the U.S. by any means -- we just extended the NBC deal and all of the major sponsors for three more years. What is shrinking is local racing, and everyone is looking for answers there. Supercross isn't shrinking either but the budgets for teams to develop both SX and MX bikes is, as bike sales haven't rebounded with the economy like we all hoped, and supercross remains the leader here in the states.

Thanks for watching from afar.

DC
Racer X

ccstrebe wrote:

True, I own a local track in a small town in Arizona and our numbers are half of what they used to be. I was talking to another track owner from the Phoenix area and he said that he’ll have 130 riders show up for a Saturday practice but can’t even get half that number to show up for a race.

I just want to ride instead of sitting around all day.
It was cheaper by far to just make a track at home.

As far as getting new riders, many things to are needed. How about more places for the peewees and younger kids to ride? Most tracks around here don't offer anything safe enough for new kids to start on. 5 kids started this year because I had a private track built for thier skill level. All on $400-$800 used beginner bikes.

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12/9/2018 7:47 PM

Right on, Davey. The youngsters will disagree and throw a fit, but a 450 on a supercross track is like using a 12 gauge to play darts.

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12/9/2018 8:48 PM

BikeGuy321 wrote:

In my opinion, you'd have to be pretty naive to think that Tomac or any other top contender is gonna go for broke at the MXDN when there's a million dollar race a week later. Tomac got owned at the Des Nations but he made a million bucks at Monster Cup. All those years when RC and others were winning the MXDN, the Monster Cup didn't even exist. A million dollars for one day of work is a big deal, unless your name is Warren Buffet.

Underground wrote:

If you were there, you'd know that they got owned. Pure and simple, and it's just the way the pendulum is swinging at the moment.

BikeGuy321 wrote:

I'm not Saying that Herlings isn't a better outdoor rider. I'm saying that Tomac was probably riding Supercross the week of Des Nations, Just showed up at Des Nations and probably gave less than 100% effort the whole time. What I'm saying is there's no incentive for someone like him to keep riding MX until MXDN and be more concerned with that race VS a possible million dollar payoff. They're just gonna show up and wing it. You can't be equally ready for the first Supercross of the year AND MXDN.

I disagree completely. I believe our boys gave it 100% they just weren't prepared and ready to win because of their focus on supercross and off season events. They did their best but the schedule they run doesn't allow them to be their best at outdoors.

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12/9/2018 8:55 PM

BikeGuy321 wrote:

In my opinion, you'd have to be pretty naive to think that Tomac or any other top contender is gonna go for broke at the MXDN when there's a million dollar race a week later. Tomac got owned at the Des Nations but he made a million bucks at Monster Cup. All those years when RC and others were winning the MXDN, the Monster Cup didn't even exist. A million dollars for one day of work is a big deal, unless your name is Warren Buffet.

I tell you now, Eli would give that $1m and his left foot to have dealt Herlings a spanking at Red Bud and you know it.

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