Posts
3890
Joined
5/1/2009
Location
Morgantown, WV
US
Edited Date/Time
12/16/2018 2:05pm
The Herlings thread was interesting but getting a little personal and weird between some of the opposing sides, so I thought out of respect to the conversation, as well as a question Bearuno had about Stefan Everts' brief time in supercross, I would post it here before it went off the rails again...
In 1992 there was this surge in interest by Europe-based riders in coming to America for the early SX rounds, in part because they had seen how Jean-Michel Bayle had risen to the top, and also in part because a lot of Americans were the GPs and it made sense to come home and do some winter work. Everts, who was always interested and respectful of supercross, but not necessarily interested in going all-in, decided to test the waters with them. As a result, at some early races, nearly one-quarter of the field in an AMA Supercross main event was GP riders: Everts, Trampas Parker and his Honda teammate Micky Dymond, Bader Manneh... Stefan did well, but like JMB in '89 and Albertyn in '95 and Tortelli in '98, there was a learning curve for sure. (Interestingly, the two world champs that year, Donny Schmit (250) and Greg Albertyn (125) did not come and race SX in the winter of '92.)
With all due respect to Herlings' wins in '17 at Ironman and Jacksonville, the comment that they are tracks our guys "raced for years" is not true, as Ironman has only been on the schedule for four years and it's been a mudder all but once, and the MXGP was the first big race ever held at WW Ranch. (And remember, Eli and Jeffrey split moto wins there.) It wasn't like they were at Glen Helen, where they really have ridden most of their lives, and our guys did pretty good at the old MXGPs there... I have no doubt that if Jeffrey committed himself to SX he could be very successful, but he would probably have had to do it earlier, like Kenny and Marvin and DV12 did, so as not to miss his window where he could still adapt to it, which I believe is what happened to Albertyn here and also Shayne King and Tyla Rattray. Same would go for Cairoli and Paulin, and the same went for RV when he went the other way to MXGP after ten years of SX/MX in America.
So what's changed? In my personal opinion, and please think about this before you flame away, SX is no longer to the advantage of U.S.-based riders in motocross like it was in the eighties and nineties because they are not able to go wide-open like they used to indoors. The bikes (450s especially) are so much more powerful than they used to be, but the stadiums are still the same size, that racing has become about management, not pure speed. They are literally riding in the same gear most of the time and nowhere near as aggressive as they used to be because they have to restrict themselves in order to not literally jump out of the stadium. Our development is based in large part on a completely different type of racing, and I don't know how we change that right now.
As Roger DeCoster said, the emphasis in America is much more on supercross than motocross, and we are paying a price at the MXON for that because bike-development needs and riding technique in the U.S. has evolved/devolved on different paths than Europe, where it's all MX for KTM/Husqvarna (and shows in their results). In some ways, it's becoming as different as F1 is to NASCAR. It's still car racing, and there are badasses on both sides, but it's also an ocean apart in how it all really works out on either side ...
Just my two pence.
DC
Racer X
In 1992 there was this surge in interest by Europe-based riders in coming to America for the early SX rounds, in part because they had seen how Jean-Michel Bayle had risen to the top, and also in part because a lot of Americans were the GPs and it made sense to come home and do some winter work. Everts, who was always interested and respectful of supercross, but not necessarily interested in going all-in, decided to test the waters with them. As a result, at some early races, nearly one-quarter of the field in an AMA Supercross main event was GP riders: Everts, Trampas Parker and his Honda teammate Micky Dymond, Bader Manneh... Stefan did well, but like JMB in '89 and Albertyn in '95 and Tortelli in '98, there was a learning curve for sure. (Interestingly, the two world champs that year, Donny Schmit (250) and Greg Albertyn (125) did not come and race SX in the winter of '92.)
With all due respect to Herlings' wins in '17 at Ironman and Jacksonville, the comment that they are tracks our guys "raced for years" is not true, as Ironman has only been on the schedule for four years and it's been a mudder all but once, and the MXGP was the first big race ever held at WW Ranch. (And remember, Eli and Jeffrey split moto wins there.) It wasn't like they were at Glen Helen, where they really have ridden most of their lives, and our guys did pretty good at the old MXGPs there... I have no doubt that if Jeffrey committed himself to SX he could be very successful, but he would probably have had to do it earlier, like Kenny and Marvin and DV12 did, so as not to miss his window where he could still adapt to it, which I believe is what happened to Albertyn here and also Shayne King and Tyla Rattray. Same would go for Cairoli and Paulin, and the same went for RV when he went the other way to MXGP after ten years of SX/MX in America.
So what's changed? In my personal opinion, and please think about this before you flame away, SX is no longer to the advantage of U.S.-based riders in motocross like it was in the eighties and nineties because they are not able to go wide-open like they used to indoors. The bikes (450s especially) are so much more powerful than they used to be, but the stadiums are still the same size, that racing has become about management, not pure speed. They are literally riding in the same gear most of the time and nowhere near as aggressive as they used to be because they have to restrict themselves in order to not literally jump out of the stadium. Our development is based in large part on a completely different type of racing, and I don't know how we change that right now.
As Roger DeCoster said, the emphasis in America is much more on supercross than motocross, and we are paying a price at the MXON for that because bike-development needs and riding technique in the U.S. has evolved/devolved on different paths than Europe, where it's all MX for KTM/Husqvarna (and shows in their results). In some ways, it's becoming as different as F1 is to NASCAR. It's still car racing, and there are badasses on both sides, but it's also an ocean apart in how it all really works out on either side ...
Just my two pence.
DC
Racer X
The French are different in that they have a domestic national SX championship, so guys like Pichon, Roncada, Vuillemin, Pourcel, Ferrnadis and Marvin come with some inherent skills that are not afforded to the Belgians or Dutch or South Africans or British (remember Anstie's and Searle's struggles here)...
That said, Marvin came in 2011, shortly after winning his second MX2 world title. I believe he was just 20 years old.
DC
MX Sports
Ok so the USA does not win the MXDN because of it is a draw back but SX is the future as far as professional level racing in the US because its where the money is but the pool of riders gets smaller also because of it. I would much rather spend my money to go watch a SX than a outdoor but now that I am my late 50s I would much rather ride out door MX tracks than SX even at local level. But back in the 1980s when we had lots of local SX races in Colorado those were the only races I wanted to do and only rode a couple of the the good local MX tracks.
I only watch outdoor nationals on TV But spend my money and go to several SX races a year even though in the 70s 80s and 90s I would hit every national I could and hike my ass all over from early in the morning to long after the racing is done so peoples preferences change as they get older and I do believe the racing crowd in general has gotten older with out having the infusion of new riders at local levels.
The Shop
I would like to hear DC's opinion on this and if there are discussions/policy ideas on how to nip this and grow local racing. It can't be good to see/hear that a race entry count of 200 (not didn't say 200 riders...) is a good day at a local mx race.
Just as we do in MX - everyone "yard sales" it, every now and then.
Everts did pretty well, considering he was a 19 year old, that went straight into the 250s. Go to DCs Racer X Vault, and have a look, or, go back to that Herlings bun fight, and see the results I put up. He qualified to the Mains in most of the events he did, with a couple of top 10s.
At the same time, McGrath was still racing in the 125s. And, he was almost ( by just a few days) a year older than Everts. Stefan won the 125 World Title in 91 - the first of his 10 World Championships - and just went straight into the 250SX series. Go have a look at the 'names' he placed in front of, a fair few times. Yes, he didn't win - which a fair few drongos here will undoubtedly latch onto, but it's always been a hell of a thing to qualify for a Premier class SX Main, in the USA. At least I think it is.
His 28th - they had a big field (30?) in those days at Daytona - I think it might have been due to a "yard sale", or a mechanical. That's happened to a fair few riders, even, and including, some Super Stars of SX, there. Perhaps DC can recall what happened?
I expect most Americans to not know Stefan raced a few 250 SXs, but I'm surprised that so many non Americans seem to not know he did.
Let's hope Stefan gets through the Malaria he's been hospitalised with. It's no joke - a couple of friends of mine did a trip to Africa a decade or so back , and one of then died there from it.
For the other fellow : Marvin Musquin - he went to the US in 2011, born 19th or 30th December ( both dates given in Wikipedia) 1989, so 21 years old at the time. Seems like he's been there forever, now.
So your saying that the 250 riders might be faster outdoors?
Thanks for watching from afar.
DC
Racer X
Edit: For a better shot at a million dollars, when you're competing in a brutal sport where huge payouts are few and far between and most people retire because of nagging injuries before 35. Hell yeah!!
You'd rather have "bragging rights" than a extra million dollars?
Only a very few races from time to time, not entire championships...
Mentality has changed a lot in Europe because of MXGP: the best riders (even the french ones) are not allowed by theirs GP teams to ride supercross anymore...
Pit Row
Same for Musquin: when he wins the race he's from Florida, when he doesn't win he's from France.
Now get off my lawn.
It was cheaper by far to just make a track at home.
As far as getting new riders, many things to are needed. How about more places for the peewees and younger kids to ride? Most tracks around here don't offer anything safe enough for new kids to start on. 5 kids started this year because I had a private track built for thier skill level. All on $400-$800 used beginner bikes.
We're talking about the dude who turned down the invitation to ride MXDN last year. MXDN might not mean as much to him as you think it does.
He's also Monster's #1 rider in the US and they have this little race called Monster Cup a week after MXDN.. Maybe, just maybe he was thinking about Monster Cup while racing at MXDN.
Post a reply to: Everts in '92, and What's Maybe Changed in Supercross...