Posts
182
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5/23/2015
Location
IA
US
Edited Date/Time
10/24/2015 3:29am
I wasn't sure where to post this, but it's some what moto related so I guess I put it here in hopes of catching the right attention? Anyways, apologies if it's wrong place, new to this forum.
Im a 19 year old that is pursing in making a career as a CAD Designer, or related title. Basically I'm really into engineering and 3d modeling. I have a lot of experience with CAD and pretty much self taught for the most part besides a few AP classes.
Now anything can be modeled but you need the measurements and data to do so. My question is where do these teams and companies obtain their data in order to accurately manufacturer aftermarket products? Do/can they purchase it from the manufacturer? Wish I would could have thought of this question when Jeremy Albrecht was the vital member of the week... now I'm sure JGR with Yamaha support can get any data they want from them, wouldn't even surprise me if they had the engineered CAD models straight from Yamaha. But how do the aftermarket companies get their specs?
Reverse engineering? Purchase it? I mean if you have a set of stock triple clamps I suppose you could 3D Scan it and get a accurate set of data off of it, but that's not cheap at all. You could measure it, but that increases the probability of human error right?
I was wanting to make some moto-related parts for a resume builder and just further my experience with CAD. For instance a set of triple clamps, obviously it's easy to know the fork diameter but how do I know the distance center to center of the forks? Or accurate data of the steering stem? I'm sure the actual manufacturing tolerances for anything dealing with the chassis is tight, so manually measuring something seems unrealistic to me.
Any insight would be greatly appreciated!
Im a 19 year old that is pursing in making a career as a CAD Designer, or related title. Basically I'm really into engineering and 3d modeling. I have a lot of experience with CAD and pretty much self taught for the most part besides a few AP classes.
Now anything can be modeled but you need the measurements and data to do so. My question is where do these teams and companies obtain their data in order to accurately manufacturer aftermarket products? Do/can they purchase it from the manufacturer? Wish I would could have thought of this question when Jeremy Albrecht was the vital member of the week... now I'm sure JGR with Yamaha support can get any data they want from them, wouldn't even surprise me if they had the engineered CAD models straight from Yamaha. But how do the aftermarket companies get their specs?
Reverse engineering? Purchase it? I mean if you have a set of stock triple clamps I suppose you could 3D Scan it and get a accurate set of data off of it, but that's not cheap at all. You could measure it, but that increases the probability of human error right?
I was wanting to make some moto-related parts for a resume builder and just further my experience with CAD. For instance a set of triple clamps, obviously it's easy to know the fork diameter but how do I know the distance center to center of the forks? Or accurate data of the steering stem? I'm sure the actual manufacturing tolerances for anything dealing with the chassis is tight, so manually measuring something seems unrealistic to me.
Any insight would be greatly appreciated!
Check these: http://www.romer.com/
We have one in our company, I'm used to working with it and the thing is around 30K € with software. Can save a lot of money.
Triple clamps would be relatively easy to reverse engineer using basic inspection and measurement tools (calipers, micrometers, dial indicators, etc.). I'm sure plenty of aftermarket companies are using a CMM (coordinate measuring machine) to take measurements and plot them in XYZ coordinates, from there you can generate a CAD model. CMM and laser scanners would really help if you are reverse engineering complex geometry like a front fender or some other reproduction plastic part.
The Shop
GuyB's reply above is correct (my opinion). Most manufacture will probably give you "zero" in terms of CAD data, that's called intellectual property - they keep it well protected. Reverse engineering is probably how 95% of aftermarket companies get there data. Yeah you have to actually measure and create your own. 3D scanning can do some stuff but simply measuring properly is much easier and cheaper for most things.
I've done product design for 30+ years, knowing "how" to get from an "idea" all the way to a "product" is what you really need to know. Read Vital and you'll see "ideas" are free, go talk to anyone who makes products and you learn that ideas are just a small piece of the picture. Not knocking on you for having an interest in CAD design, just trying to help you go far. Getting the "data" from a triple clamp is pretty simple, knowing how to "design" them is not.
Thanks for all the replies extremely helpful guys!
I'm not currently in school... I have a pretty good thing setup right now that is pretty much why I am not in school, I do contractual work for a logistics company. Anything that needs a drawing or model I handle. Conceptual models, re-drawing engineering drawing into digital form, flow diagrams, etc.
I'm always looking at the future though and I like to progress my work and learn. I don't want open doors to be closed before I even have a chance to walk up to it, if that makes sense. You never know where the future has in store, my only worry right now is if my work experience and a portfolio speak in volumes of what a degree would. (CAD wise)
Is a degree everything for this particular career? From the sounds of it you basically have to be mechanical engineer with CAD experience and not the other way around. If that's the case you can't obviously call your self any type of engineer (both legally and ethically) without a degree.
Again thanks for the insightful replies!
EDIT: just read some of the replies that happened as I was typing, that answered a few of my questions. Thanks guys!
Reverse engineering these days is pretty easy , we have GOM scanners, full photogrametry suites, Leica lazer trackers and Romer arms with Laser heads on them. Did a full scan of a A330 landing gear forging , in under an hour yesterday with some new stuff Nikon were demo'ing .. but all it is is a dumb CAD file , it tells you what you have, it doesnt tell you what its supposed to be , and what tolerances it was made to.. somebody has to have the skill to know about limits & fits & GD&T before you can start to think about making anything at all.
I have to explain daily why putting a 3d picture on a peice of paper and typing CAD is Master, is not design for manufacture, by guys that have and engineering degree , but couldnt produce a drawing that you could actually make something properly from and have it work.
All that scanning gets you is a ballpark start point , just because you can make something on a screen in CAD doesnt make you a designer , any more than working a flight simulator on your computer makes you a pilot.
Old school design started on paper, if you couldnt draw it , you couldnt machine it , and a design guy who new his way round a pencil was worth his weight in gold,
These days, CAD designers are 10 a penny, what you cant get is people to make the stuff, and know what they are doing , and people to measure it.
Technology is awesome , make no mistake , but nothing beats a sound base in Metrology and Machining.. if it was up to me , nobody would get to use a CAD station until they know what they are doing.
Work on practical experience , hands on stuff, and listen to miserable old bastards like me , who will impart more knowledge that any CAD lecturer who never went home smelling of cutting oil
I sit behind one of these most days , accurate to 0.0026mm , we have 2 machines that are 0.0006mm capable
url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUgWBlEewyk]Revo demo[/url]
I'd say get your degree, get hired on at a company that already does those things, learn the ropes, then start your own business. Good luck!
think about what people did before CMM arms.
also, keep in mind that CMM arms arent the end all be all for accuracy. they are great for measuring complex shapes that would be hard/impossible to do with traditional methods. they do have tolerance ranges, i want to say the mid level Faro arm that does like 2' radius can hit like sub .005 on a good day or so.
in regards to your path. do you want to sit behind a computer and be a CAD drawer all day or does engineering interest you, aka, are you good at math. haha.
I could easily give you all the measurements you would need to design a set triple clamps within 25 minutes on my inspection table
Based on a few responses I may be making myself seem a little vague, but I'm trying to not write a book about myself. Believe me I definitely don't want to be that guy that designs something not practical, I deal with that when I'm designing for my current job. I currently design oil flow stations, now the accuracy and measuring isn't exactly as crucial as say manufacturing or product design, but still you have to have many things in mind while you design, I get that concept forsure.
@PhilG - You are completely right with what you said, you need to know more than just the CAD model you make. Seems to be the jist of most of the replies, which is good to know, now I know what I need to focus on.
Like I said I'm pretty much self taught besides a handful of Intro College course so I learn of what I have available. Obviously software being about the only thing I can have available to me outside of a educational system or business, I definitely know a lot on the software side. I see I need to focus on the mechanical and hands on side to go where I want, especially if it's in the manufacturing field.
Again thanks to all the replies, really cool to have input from people that actually do it. It's a big help.
Pit Row
Its good that you have a job, but it sounds like it doesnt give you alot of real world experience. See if theres anyway you can get into a machine shop in some capacity or try to find a way to work closer with engineers. If you really like it and want to pursue design engineering then i would highly suggest going to school for engineering. A degree and experience is required for most design jobs. 15 years ago even CAD was more time consuming so drafters were employed. Not so much anymore.
I was taught by a bunch of disgruntled old men who believed in learning everything the hard way first and it makes a big difference.
Ive always wondered why more didnt focus on that. There are just some parts that need to stay OEM in my opinion and triple calmps (for me) is one of them. When the bike is designed by the mfg it is designed with ALL of the parts working together in unison whic a vital part are the flex charisticts of the triple clamps engineered into the frame design for overall flex, one cannot work as designed without the other.
Not to put a damper on what your doing now but getting where you want to go without a ME degree is a hard fight. Being a good ME without any "real" shop experience is also a hard fight. My only complaint with most colege programs is they require little or "no" shop hours - sad.
m121c - get to California, you can intern at my shop anytime. MCAD and machine tools are the future "today", there are way to few people who can do this stuff.
Get yourself a copy of ASME Y14.5 and read it , lots.
I would have to say that our best design engineers at work are the one's who have spent massive amounts of time with our product in the shop and in the fields. They have a much more fundamental approach on how to make things that work and assemble well. Many, many times, they are not overly-strong in drafting or 3D modeling, but they are good enough to get the job done.
I've seen other design engineers who are incredibly talented at modeling and come up with some wicked stuff, but like others have said, their expectation of what's in the software is not always practical to manufacture. In my opinion, that's what makes a design engineer less skilled if it's not practical to manufacturer something. Anyone can be taught how to model and draft, but not everyone can be taught mechanical aptitude and how to have the understanding of mechanization.
I have personal experience with all of this because I am a Manufacturing Engineer. I'm the guy who actually has to figure out how in the hell we're going to build what the DEs have called for. I always prefer the designs of those guys who just plain get it. They build a functional product with assembly and serviceability in mind.
If you are wanting to work for a large corporation, you most likely are going to need a degree. That's just what it is this day in age. There are exceptions, but not many. If you don't want to pay for school, get a job in a machine shop. Try to get into an apprenticeship program that pays you to learn. Learn the measuring tools and how to machine. Learn how to read drawings. If you have the opportunity to cross-train as a welder, there's also a lot of value in understanding those processes.
What else do you want to know?
I would suggest that you should not model and try to manufacture parts to put on other people's bikes unless you are protected by an incorporation or corporation. If something goes wrong, you can and will be sued faster than you can react. It's not worth it. Experiment with stuff on your bike only.
These days it a lot better, but the skills have transferred to the ME's more and more with 5 axis stuff, you cant just program it on the fly like the 3 axis machines.
I have been lucky/ skilled enough to have made a living as a "designer" in the motorcycle industry for nearly 20 years. I don't have an engineering degree but if I could go back in time I would have spent the time to get one. That been said, 4 years of school will never prepare you for real world. Think about all the big names in the industry Payton, Emler, Pops Yoshimura, etc., etc. None of these guys are engineers. The way I explain it is this. Design is about asking what is possible, engineering is answering that question. Obviously both are critical to a positive result and all these guys and many others are very skilled "dirt under the finger nails" engineers. Don't get me wrong, everyone's comments resonate strongly with me, but you have to ask yourself this, Do I have a passion for making things? I work primarly in the V-Twin side of the business and a lot of "Bikers" think that they would be really good and designing parts because they built a couple of custom choppers in their garage. The truth is that navigating between passion and manufacturing experience is where the whole thing shakes out. Good luck m121c, find your passion and get after it.
This way you can get your hands dirty throwing some chips while you learn more of the design process.
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