End the AMA Production Rule in Motocross

kpiper
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Edited Date/Time 7/22/2022 4:57pm
Want to help 'save' the sport of motocross? Ending the production rule would be a good step. Bring back works bikes.
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7/20/2022 7:23pm
kpiper wrote:
Want to help 'save' the sport of motocross? Ending the production rule would be a good step. Bring back works bikes.
Please explain how that will "save the sport".
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westeast
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Wouldn't it make it more expense to operate a team and nearly impossible for privateers to be remotely competitive?
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kpiper
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7/20/2022 7:30pm
kpiper wrote:
Want to help 'save' the sport of motocross? Ending the production rule would be a good step. Bring back works bikes.
Please explain how that will "save the sport".
Said it would help. If you were around during the time of works bikes things were more exciting for the fans. There were plenty of small teams and privateers as well. We all did just fine.
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kpiper
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7/20/2022 7:32pm
westeast wrote:
Wouldn't it make it more expense to operate a team and nearly impossible for privateers to be remotely competitive?
I do believe a small team rider became the first ever US winner of the famous Carlsbad USGP before the production rule.
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The Shop

7/20/2022 7:33pm
kpiper wrote:
Want to help 'save' the sport of motocross? Ending the production rule would be a good step. Bring back works bikes.
Please explain how that will "save the sport".
kpiper wrote:
Said it would help. If you were around during the time of works bikes things were more exciting for the fans. There were plenty of small...
Said it would help. If you were around during the time of works bikes things were more exciting for the fans. There were plenty of small teams and privateers as well. We all did just fine.
You still haven’t explained how that will help in 2022. I’m curious so let’s hear it.
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langhammx
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Not going to happen
There’s good reasons why it went away
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Magoofan
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7/20/2022 7:35pm
I'm of the opposite belief.... Make em run them with stock engines/transmission, suspension, exhuast (other than springs).

This would level the playing field...AND slow the racing down where people aren't ending up in the hospital.

Flame on.....
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langhammx
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7/20/2022 7:37pm
kpiper wrote:
Said it would help. If you were around during the time of works bikes things were more exciting for the fans. There were plenty of small...
Said it would help. If you were around during the time of works bikes things were more exciting for the fans. There were plenty of small teams and privateers as well. We all did just fine.
“Want to 'save' the sport of motocross?”
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kpiper
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7/20/2022 7:37pm
Magoofan wrote:
I'm of the opposite belief.... Make em run them with stock engines/transmission, suspension, exhuast (other than springs). This would level the playing field...AND slow the racing...
I'm of the opposite belief.... Make em run them with stock engines/transmission, suspension, exhuast (other than springs).

This would level the playing field...AND slow the racing down where people aren't ending up in the hospital.

Flame on.....
You are right about slowing the racing down but I think you have to do that with track design.
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kpiper
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7/20/2022 7:37pm
kpiper wrote:
Said it would help. If you were around during the time of works bikes things were more exciting for the fans. There were plenty of small...
Said it would help. If you were around during the time of works bikes things were more exciting for the fans. There were plenty of small teams and privateers as well. We all did just fine.
langhammx wrote:
“Want to 'save' the sport of motocross?”
One step in many.
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kpiper
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7/20/2022 7:38pm
langhammx wrote:
Not going to happen
There’s good reasons why it went away
What are the 'good' reasons? Why can't it be overturned? Rules get changed all the time. They got rid of two strokes.
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UpTiTe
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7/20/2022 7:43pm
langhammx wrote:
Not going to happen
There’s good reasons why it went away
kpiper wrote:
What are the 'good' reasons? Why can't it be overturned? Rules get changed all the time. They got rid of two strokes.
Cost is the biggest. If you brought back full factory bikes, and they took advantage of the rules, you’d loss factory rides.

Add the fact that bike advancement would slow way down
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langhammx
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7/20/2022 7:45pm
kpiper wrote:
What are the 'good' reasons? Why can't it be overturned? Rules get changed all the time. They got rid of two strokes.
Factory (Works) bikes are too costly for the OEM’s to R&D and produce one-off parts.
The Factory (Works) bikes are unfair to the rest of the riders and would actually hurt the sport at this time. The stock bikes are so good nowadays, that it’s unnecessary to build bikes that would ruin the budgets.
The money they were spending on these one-off bikes is now being paid to the riders on the Factory teams. They can’t afford to do both.
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7/20/2022 7:49pm
langhammx wrote:
Not going to happen
There’s good reasons why it went away
kpiper wrote:
What are the 'good' reasons? Why can't it be overturned? Rules get changed all the time. They got rid of two strokes.
Are you ever going to explain your thoughts on how this will help the sport? Haven’t seen one theory.
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MotoX85
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7/20/2022 7:50pm
kpiper wrote:
Want to help 'save' the sport of motocross? Ending the production rule would be a good step. Bring back works bikes.
Please explain how that will "save the sport".
kpiper wrote:
Said it would help. If you were around during the time of works bikes things were more exciting for the fans. There were plenty of small...
Said it would help. If you were around during the time of works bikes things were more exciting for the fans. There were plenty of small teams and privateers as well. We all did just fine.
Wrong

I was

And manufacturers did very little to their production bikes to make sure their "works" bikes had a HUGE advantage. IF YOU were around during this time you would know this very well.

Your comment is like telling a Native American to trust the Government.

We have the best bikes available at the dealership BECAUSE of the production rule.
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kpiper
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7/20/2022 8:03pm
Yes, motocross has many issues. I was around and racing during the pre-production rule era and we all did just fine. I think works bikes advanced bike technology and that was a good thing. Works bikes were exciting to see in the pits and on the track.

Many privateers or small teams did well. I gave an example of Moates winning the USGP for the first time. Beating the factory riders on works bikes. Yes, the best riders will always win no matter what bike they are on.
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kpiper
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7/20/2022 8:06pm
kpiper wrote:
What are the 'good' reasons? Why can't it be overturned? Rules get changed all the time. They got rid of two strokes.
langhammx wrote:
Factory (Works) bikes are too costly for the OEM’s to R&D and produce one-off parts. The Factory (Works) bikes are unfair to the rest of the...
Factory (Works) bikes are too costly for the OEM’s to R&D and produce one-off parts.
The Factory (Works) bikes are unfair to the rest of the riders and would actually hurt the sport at this time. The stock bikes are so good nowadays, that it’s unnecessary to build bikes that would ruin the budgets.
The money they were spending on these one-off bikes is now being paid to the riders on the Factory teams. They can’t afford to do both.
Honda didn't have the best production bikes in 1981. They were garbage. But they advanced their works bikes and became the dominant team (and bike) which lead to Honda having the best production bikes by 1884.
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langhammx
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7/20/2022 8:11pm
kpiper wrote:
Honda didn't have the best production bikes in 1981. They were garbage. But they advanced their works bikes and became the dominant team (and bike) which...
Honda didn't have the best production bikes in 1981. They were garbage. But they advanced their works bikes and became the dominant team (and bike) which lead to Honda having the best production bikes by 1884.
I’m really not sure what point you are trying to make, but 1884 was a very long time ago.
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Magoofan
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7/20/2022 8:13pm Edited Date/Time 7/20/2022 8:14pm
kpiper wrote:
Yes, motocross has many issues. I was around and racing during the pre-production rule era and we all did just fine. I think works bikes advanced...
Yes, motocross has many issues. I was around and racing during the pre-production rule era and we all did just fine. I think works bikes advanced bike technology and that was a good thing. Works bikes were exciting to see in the pits and on the track.

Many privateers or small teams did well. I gave an example of Moates winning the USGP for the first time. Beating the factory riders on works bikes. Yes, the best riders will always win no matter what bike they are on.
The works bikes were definitely the coolest era, I loved being around on the sx/mx scene back then. But the advantage to the factory riders was completely unfair. It's the same today.... the factory bikes are uber cool.....but the unlimited budget to spend money on go-faster-daddy goodies is...again....unfair.

To your point about slowing down the racing....I totally agree. Track design needs a new look. I'm tired of the "practiced to death gymnastics" we're seeing in SX.


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Bruce372
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7/20/2022 8:17pm
Magoofan wrote:
I'm of the opposite belief.... Make em run them with stock engines/transmission, suspension, exhuast (other than springs). This would level the playing field...AND slow the racing...
I'm of the opposite belief.... Make em run them with stock engines/transmission, suspension, exhuast (other than springs).

This would level the playing field...AND slow the racing down where people aren't ending up in the hospital.

Flame on.....
Limit engines per season also!!! They have enough power, make em last longer, better product for customers
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J. Sloan
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7/20/2022 8:19pm
kpiper wrote:
Honda didn't have the best production bikes in 1981. They were garbage. But they advanced their works bikes and became the dominant team (and bike) which...
Honda didn't have the best production bikes in 1981. They were garbage. But they advanced their works bikes and became the dominant team (and bike) which lead to Honda having the best production bikes by 1884.
langhammx wrote:
I’m really not sure what point you are trying to make, but 1884 was a very long time ago.
What he's saying is that the bikes were so advanced, they were a time machine. Honda literally had 100 years to refine their bike ahead of their competition since they went back in time.
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kpiper
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7/20/2022 8:19pm Edited Date/Time 7/20/2022 8:25pm
kpiper wrote:
Honda didn't have the best production bikes in 1981. They were garbage. But they advanced their works bikes and became the dominant team (and bike) which...
Honda didn't have the best production bikes in 1981. They were garbage. But they advanced their works bikes and became the dominant team (and bike) which lead to Honda having the best production bikes by 1884.
langhammx wrote:
I’m really not sure what point you are trying to make, but 1884 was a very long time ago.
Just that there can still be great production bikes even when we had true factory bikes. I had two friends who won a national moto pre-1984. Another got 8th overall at a national. Another got a fifth place. All on production bikes they just modified with some parts from DG, etc.

So it was not true privateers could not compete. The production rule is very convoluted these days anyway. Special 'works editions' that KTM does etc. Webb removing a bracket from the frame? Was it legal?

Why not just end it? Let the best team build the best bike and let it be exotic. Would be very cool to see.
GangGreen
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7/20/2022 8:20pm Edited Date/Time 7/20/2022 8:24pm
kpiper wrote:
Want to help 'save' the sport of motocross? Ending the production rule would be a good step. Bring back works bikes.
It's so freaking simple. How about we eliminate the ridiculouly outdated "Double Displacement Rule", and get back to racing 125cc and 250cc motocross bikes.


It's so fucking simple. It's been a 25 year shitshow !!!! MX Sports ain't doing it until DC retires, crades the balls of the manufacturer's, follow the money,.




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kpiper
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7/20/2022 8:23pm
kpiper wrote:
Yes, motocross has many issues. I was around and racing during the pre-production rule era and we all did just fine. I think works bikes advanced...
Yes, motocross has many issues. I was around and racing during the pre-production rule era and we all did just fine. I think works bikes advanced bike technology and that was a good thing. Works bikes were exciting to see in the pits and on the track.

Many privateers or small teams did well. I gave an example of Moates winning the USGP for the first time. Beating the factory riders on works bikes. Yes, the best riders will always win no matter what bike they are on.
Magoofan wrote:
The works bikes were definitely the coolest era, I loved being around on the sx/mx scene back then. But the advantage to the factory riders was...
The works bikes were definitely the coolest era, I loved being around on the sx/mx scene back then. But the advantage to the factory riders was completely unfair. It's the same today.... the factory bikes are uber cool.....but the unlimited budget to spend money on go-faster-daddy goodies is...again....unfair.

To your point about slowing down the racing....I totally agree. Track design needs a new look. I'm tired of the "practiced to death gymnastics" we're seeing in SX.


I agree with you 100%. Too many riders getting hurt. But I also don't think we want 'restrictor plates' on MX bikes right? The tracks are the answer.

And yes, the works bikes days were very cool. Cycle News would even do articles such as, "We rode the factory Honda works bike!" That was a big deal seeing those bikes at the races. Great for fans and even us guys who had to ride against them.
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kpiper
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7/20/2022 8:24pm
kpiper wrote:
Honda didn't have the best production bikes in 1981. They were garbage. But they advanced their works bikes and became the dominant team (and bike) which...
Honda didn't have the best production bikes in 1981. They were garbage. But they advanced their works bikes and became the dominant team (and bike) which lead to Honda having the best production bikes by 1884.
langhammx wrote:
I’m really not sure what point you are trying to make, but 1884 was a very long time ago.
J. Sloan wrote:
What he's saying is that the bikes were so advanced, they were a time machine. Honda literally had 100 years to refine their bike ahead of...
What he's saying is that the bikes were so advanced, they were a time machine. Honda literally had 100 years to refine their bike ahead of their competition since they went back in time.
No, that was Ronnie Mac who went back in time.
kpiper
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7/20/2022 8:26pm
GangGreen wrote:
It's so freaking simple. How about we eliminate the ridiculouly outdated "Double Displacement Rule", and get back to racing 125cc and 250cc motocross bikes. It's so...
It's so freaking simple. How about we eliminate the ridiculouly outdated "Double Displacement Rule", and get back to racing 125cc and 250cc motocross bikes.


It's so fucking simple. It's been a 25 year shitshow !!!! MX Sports ain't doing it until DC retires, crades the balls of the manufacturer's, follow the money,.




Yes, this as well.
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langhammx
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7/20/2022 8:38pm
kpiper wrote:
Just that there can still be great production bikes even when we had true factory bikes. I had two friends who won a national moto pre-1984...
Just that there can still be great production bikes even when we had true factory bikes. I had two friends who won a national moto pre-1984. Another got 8th overall at a national. Another got a fifth place. All on production bikes they just modified with some parts from DG, etc.

So it was not true privateers could not compete. The production rule is very convoluted these days anyway. Special 'works editions' that KTM does etc. Webb removing a bracket from the frame? Was it legal?

Why not just end it? Let the best team build the best bike and let it be exotic. Would be very cool to see.
You obviously aren’t reading what some of us are telling you. I was racing back then too, that doesn’t mean that they should go back to works bikes.

The KTM “Factory Edition” bikes are all bling, no performance advantages.
The Honda “Works Edition” bikes are mildly ported heads and some bling.
The Kawasaki 450 special editions are pretty much the same deal, no comparison to a Works bike.

This will be my last post in this thread, but good luck with your pursuit to bring back the Works bikes.
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kpiper
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7/20/2022 9:28pm
langhammx wrote:
You obviously aren’t reading what some of us are telling you. I was racing back then too, that doesn’t mean that they should go back to...
You obviously aren’t reading what some of us are telling you. I was racing back then too, that doesn’t mean that they should go back to works bikes.

The KTM “Factory Edition” bikes are all bling, no performance advantages.
The Honda “Works Edition” bikes are mildly ported heads and some bling.
The Kawasaki 450 special editions are pretty much the same deal, no comparison to a Works bike.

This will be my last post in this thread, but good luck with your pursuit to bring back the Works bikes.
I didn't know I had to be 'told' anything by you. I was stating my opinion on a message board for debate. Thought that was what this place was for? No?
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tmphotoart
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7/20/2022 9:50pm
The pinnacle class of the sport should also be the pinnacle of equipment.

The fallacy of "keeping costs down" by using production base bikes has gone out the window with the addition of Factory Editions.

Works bikes will bring in more bike manufacturers like Beta, Triumph, TM without the restrictive AMA homologation rule.

Works bikes will wipe out the stagnation there is in the sport with boring production bikes - technologic advancement should be race tested and celebrated as a key element in the sport.

If one bike company can build one model to be raced as three different brands, then another company can build one-off works bike to race test their unique ideas as a single entry. The barrier of entry should be open to all who want to compete, no matter the size and not filling the field with cookie-cutter models.

Works bikes are a Dream . . . the dream of what is possible with a little imagination and ingenuity.
A Racer's Dream of racing the most innovative machine on the planet.
A Dream of the paying racing fan to witness something great other than seeing the same SX-F model in their garage circle the track.

Make Motocross Exciting Again . . . Bring back the Works Bikes . . . Let's Dream Again!




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philG
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7/21/2022 3:52am
Bruce372 wrote:
Limit engines per season also!!! They have enough power, make em last longer, better product for customers
Yeah , cos nothing saves money like running it till it blows.. we used to run a WRC engine in World Rally for one event, then they said it had to do 2, 'to save money'.. so instead of getting a strip and refresh , and going again on another event, it got sealed , and by the time it was stripped it was fucked beyond economical repair, assuming it hadnt blown up.. $75k motor trashed for the sake of a set of bearing shells and labour and gaskets.

Think we used double the amount of everything that year, and had to buy half of that up front for logistics reasons.

So its a no from me.
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