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I wonder how Baggett, Tomac or Barcia would have faired if either one of them had come alone to race the GP's in 2009 when they were 16/17? You're so callous towards Roczen its hilarious. So far he has proven he has what it takes to win in Europe, win his class at multiple MXdNs, have great success in Supercross (you can talk his 2nd place down all you want but his first full season was anything but a failure when he lost to the favourite & veteran of the class) and be right at the sharp end of the US Outdoor Nationals competing for wins. I dont see many other riders doing what he has done at such a young age, yet you still like to talk him down as inferior. Its so... I dont know, sad really.
The Shop
Hangtown: KR 3rd, ET 5th
Freestone: KR 3rd, JB 5th
Lakewood: KR 3rd, ET 4th
High Point: KR 3rd, BB 5th
And Musquin started the outdoor season with a broken hand. I don't know his
current status, but I would bet his endurance will improve(speed is clearly there).
BB - 175
JB - 168
ET - 164
KR - 158
MM - 117
What's your point? Roczen has been consistant and has benefited from a few bad motos by the other 3 but obvioulsy if you read above, those three have had better results.....
How do we judge that though?
In a way that's what part of this endless GP vs AMA argument is about. How do we know which field is deeper when the traffic only ever goes one way? We almost never have any top level AMA riders travel over in their prime from America and compete across a full season in the GPs. These days it's always the other way round. And that's the point really - KR doesn't just have to deal with new competition but a whole new playing field altogether. He's weaker in America than he is in the GPs, regardless of the competition. I don't see how that can be denied by anyone. He must surely be weaker by any logical argument under a (to him) foreign system.
As myself and jamma have said, what if any of those fast 3 Lites riders would have gone to the GP's last year,or even the year before,I think they'd have struggled over here against Roczen,Herlings,Paulin,Frossard etc
What's so flawed when comparing a top GP rider,(albeit from the feeder class),going to race in America is that he should automatically be at a disadvantage as it's all on the Americans' terms
I think Pourcel took to it extremely well,maybe the class was weaker then,many would agree that he wasn't as fast as Cairoli when he left but he did very well in the Lites andcame within a whisker of winning the Outdoors as well as SX,it would have been interesting if say Dungey had done GPs against Pourcel,Cairoli,Ratrey etc becausr that's the equivelent comparison
As long as riders come from there to race here after winning over there and sometimes making LESS that's proof to me that they are stepping up. It's no longer SX either that's louring them here, because they can now like Roczen last year, do both.
It is simple math. It's all about the benjamin's. For a guy like AC or Everts, it was a very smart move to stay over there and dominate. They cashed in by being the big fish which most likely would not have happened over here. Sure they would have been factory riders and very competitive but probably wouldn't have had as much success and in turn made as much money. The debate gets old but carries on because there are so many different angles to it. It's not about individual riders. That is the small picture but really lights the fire under the fan boys. The big picture is the money, exposure and ultimately the status and right now that belongs to the US SX/National series. Just ask Roczen, Musquin and the rest who have made the journey.....
That is part of the problem with these kind of discussions.
A common myth that GP fans believe is that the US riders get a lot of practice on the national tracks. That's not the case at all. A lot of them see it for the first time when they turn pro. Villopoto said he hadn't raced Washougal, which is his hometown track, since he was on 80s until he turned pro.
You also have to remember that a guy like Roczen is rare. Most of the time, by the time they come over here, they are a veteran of the 250 class, which is anything over 2 years racing it. Then they get to race against riders who are in their first three years as a professional. Take Musquin for instance. I love the guy, but when he came here, he had been a 2 time MX2 champ, which makes him a veteran of the 250 class and also means it would be time for him to move up to the 450, but instead came to the US to race the 250.
Pit Row
Riders go to America because the America series looks really cool and American's know how to make it look cool. It's been like that since day one. In the 1970s in Australie we knew who Bob Hannah and Marty Smith were beter than we knew who Roger De Coster and Joel Robert were. Americans really do a great job in making their series look cool and America riders are 100% beter than the euros at making it look cool.
As for more money in America, that is because you sell more bike, which means more money for the riders.
Be thanksful for the GP series, because all of these guys would never have gotten to America without it. We all are winners with the riders who race AMA and FIM.
Please don't try and downplay the fact that Europeans are still as quick as Americans, because each year we have guys like Paulin, Cairoli, Everts, Seb Pourcel, Roczen, Herlings, Searle and others racing side by side with the likes of Villopoto, Dungey, Reed, Stewart and others. The difference is hardly worth talking about.
Team USA will always rule because you have 100 times the riders of all these countries and like Belgium is learning now the numbers of riders coming through from the youth ranks makes a World or AMA Champion.
It's early, and a close 4 way battle right now. Anything can happen. Great racing.
Back in the 1970's and 1980's the Belgians were the top MX nation, whose riders won many world titles, but can anyone name who was the 1973 Belgian 250cc National Champion off the top of their head?.....................................................
I love following both series, the GP's and American Nationals via the internet and live broadcasts (thanks DC) and have visited many GPs, Nationals and MXDN over the years.
It only seem's it's in America that fans or Vitard's have to constanly claim they have the premier series.
Go back and re-read my post. It's a pretty simple equation and when you take away the defensive posture and open your mind to think about why those riders are coming over, you will come to the conclusion that right now, the AMA SX/MX series is the premier series in the World. It is where the "best of the best" are and come to prove their worth.
but they would make it 6 genuine contenders,as Frossard is out
Hard to say about Herlings too,in my book he's as fast anywhere as Roczen,I'm sure mot Euros on here that have seen his career would agree,disregarding any bias,he came on so well last year,his MXdN ride was a good indication of his talent
You're correct,the GP riders have raced Pro for longer when they go over,Roczen has less time than Barcia but 3/4 of a season more time than Bagget and Tomac as a Pro,he is still younger but obviously moved up sooner,maybe as the US has a had a better junior program? Roczen and Herlings went into the series at 15 years old
But at the most basic fundamental level - Desalle simply would not be able to challenge Dungey 'AT ALL' if the pace between each series wasn't close. It simply would not happen. He could not turn up to Unadilla National and put in two very convincing 2nd places finishes if his speed wasn't good. Never mind exceptions.
I would also apply the same logic to the various MXDN moto victories or individual battles the GP riders have won over recent years. These aren't all won by freak occurrence, or often by the very best the GPs have to offer. And again, they wouldn't happen at all, ever, if the GP riders weren't at least very close or equal to their AMA counterparts. If on the other hand every MXDN was like Budds Creek 2007 with total AMA domination then I would agree with you completely. I would have no choice but to agree.
I do take on board your point about good few of the AMA riders being left at home for each MXDN. But that is often true of the GP riders also, with many either riding different cc's for team obligations than what they're used to, or sitting out through injury completely.
And as I mentioned, the AMA series looks really cool and that attracts riders. We need to get the GP riders, managers, promoters to get that formula and I believe that its possible to make the GP series look just as cool and thus also interesting to stay here.
For sure now that KTM and Pro-Circuit are involved in both USA and FIM will only help young guys make it in Europe and America and we might see some rider exchanges happen more often.
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