Electric Motorcycle with Gearbox

jlv148
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jlv148 6/17/2019 8:22pm
6/17/2019 8:22pm
theycallmeebryan wrote:
I own two Altas and also own a KX450 and KX125. I race my MXR against 450s and am very competitive. I use my EXR (dual...
I own two Altas and also own a KX450 and KX125. I race my MXR against 450s and am very competitive. I use my EXR (dual sport) to commute to work and to zip around local single track to get technical practice in mid-week when I can't make it to a mx track.

I never miss the lack of clutch and gears on my Altas. Due to the nature of electric motors, the motor always has the perfect amount of power on tap. I can literally creep either of my Altas one handed slower than a person can crawl on the ground just by using the throttle. Try that on your gas bike for extended periods of time and you'll fry the clutch faster than KFC makes your bucket of chicken wings. Wack the throttle and you'll wheelie over whatever you need to. Never worry about stalling the bike or being in the wrong gear to hit a jump.

The only reason gas bikes need a clutch and transmission is because of the narrow power window and because the motor has to be continuously spinning to be "running".

Electric motocross bikes are far from boring. In fact, I have more fun on my Altas than I do on both my 450 and 125. I never miss having a clutch and transmission when riding them, nor do I forget how to use them when I hop on my gas bikes. I also make more mistakes on my gas bikes than I do on my electric bikes. Electric allows you to focus on riding technique way more than gas bikes.
Have you experimented with different gearing on your Alta? I remember you posted a supercross video a while ago and I thought it looked like it might be better geared lower.
Yzf916
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Yzf916 6/17/2019 8:50pm
6/17/2019 8:50pm
NONE of this matters. Unlesss they get range up. Weight down. And price down. It will go the way of the Alta. And Tesla to follow. No matter how good it makes you "feel" to own one. If it's not ECONOMICALLY FEASABLE it's not going to be competitive with the ICE.
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JM485
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JM485 6/17/2019 8:58pm
6/17/2019 8:58pm
Yzf916 wrote:
NONE of this matters. Unlesss they get range up. Weight down. And price down. It will go the way of the Alta. And Tesla to follow...
NONE of this matters. Unlesss they get range up. Weight down. And price down. It will go the way of the Alta. And Tesla to follow. No matter how good it makes you "feel" to own one. If it's not ECONOMICALLY FEASABLE it's not going to be competitive with the ICE.
Alta had not problem selling bikes, in fact they were sold out at shut down time, so. . . . . . . . .
cwtoyota
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cwtoyota 6/17/2019 9:48pm
6/17/2019 9:48pm
Yzf916 wrote:
NONE of this matters. Unlesss they get range up. Weight down. And price down. It will go the way of the Alta. And Tesla to follow...
NONE of this matters. Unlesss they get range up. Weight down. And price down. It will go the way of the Alta. And Tesla to follow. No matter how good it makes you "feel" to own one. If it's not ECONOMICALLY FEASABLE it's not going to be competitive with the ICE.
I agree. This is all on the battery technology at this point.
The rest of the tech is already well developed, but batteries, as far as they've come still suck for motor-vehicle use.

The girl slinging Alta at Hangtown National a few years ago was trying to talk me into a test ride. We were there to watch the national, so I declined. I asked about how the range was for an intermediate on a national track. She answered honestly saying it was only going to be 20 to 25 minutes at full power for a faster rider on a gnarly track. My next question was "How long for a full charge on a small generator, how much are the spare batteries and how long do they take to swap out?" She told me you won't get them charged in time for your next moto on a race day on a generator. Also, the batteries were something like $3200.00 each and she said they "...don't recommend swapping them between motos, although that's what they did with Hill at the Straight Rhythm".

I appreciated the honest answers, hoping they'd succeed in the long run.
I decided to spend my $3200 battery money on a second (used) YZ125 that weighs 40 lbs less than the Alta.
Eventually, these e-bikes will be the main attraction, and internal combustion engines will be thought of the same way we think of air-cooled, drum brake bikes today.

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Yzf916
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Yzf916 6/17/2019 10:10pm
6/17/2019 10:10pm
Selling bikes and being profitable are two different things. The doors won't stay open long if you're selling a product at a loss. Ala Alta and Tesla.
2
fastchookracing 6/18/2019 12:09am
6/18/2019 12:09am
BAMX wrote:
Honest question...Could a gear box allow a smaller motor with the same power output thus allowing longer battery life?
cwtoyota wrote:
Not really enough to matter. The motor's physical size wouldn't be reduced enough to make up for the added mass and power loss to friction in...
Not really enough to matter. The motor's physical size wouldn't be reduced enough to make up for the added mass and power loss to friction in the gearbox. Just throttling back on the power electronically (mapping) would do just about the same thing for battery life that a smaller motor would.

There's no advantage to a gearbox in this application.

I do see a benefit to some kind of manual clutch and it may be worth the extra mass because it adds an element of control. I use the clutch to limit power as often as I use it to get the engine into the power.

MXJeff575 and KennyFreeMoney made good points on the clutch issue.


In fact, it's entirely possible to simulate a mechanical clutch with mapping on an electric motor. When you pull in the clutch, it essentially limits torque, and when you release it you get the normal torque plus a certain amount extra for an instant which represents the flywheel moment of inertia.
Good point. In fact as electric motor power output is software mapped, when the clutch is “fanned” the output power can be boosted. Just like popping the clutch. No mechanical clutch needed. And a clutch is necessary in whiskey throttle situations.
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Underground 6/18/2019 5:34am
6/18/2019 5:34am
endurox wrote:
Try splattering or zapping without a clutch. Gear box increases bikes range. The Mecatecno is actuallly lighter than the gas powered 2 stroke trials bike by...
Try splattering or zapping without a clutch. Gear box increases bikes range. The Mecatecno is actuallly lighter than the gas powered 2 stroke trials bike by 10 pounds or so and 20 pounds lighter than the Honda/Montesa 4 stroker.
I was thinking that with a gearbox, they could afford to run a smaller motor and therefor extend battery time for the same capacity battery.
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mxtech1
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mxtech1 6/18/2019 5:40am
6/18/2019 5:40am
endurox wrote:
Try splattering or zapping without a clutch. Gear box increases bikes range. The Mecatecno is actuallly lighter than the gas powered 2 stroke trials bike by...
Try splattering or zapping without a clutch. Gear box increases bikes range. The Mecatecno is actuallly lighter than the gas powered 2 stroke trials bike by 10 pounds or so and 20 pounds lighter than the Honda/Montesa 4 stroker.
Underground wrote:
I was thinking that with a gearbox, they could afford to run a smaller motor and therefor extend battery time for the same capacity battery.
Maybe slightly, but you have to remember that a gearbox and clutch add inertia, most of which is rotating, and the parasitic power losses that comes with. You also introduce more complexity into the electrical and software schemes.

Gearboxes are expensive to manufacture due to the machine times for cutting gears and potentially casting the gearcase housing. Clutches are usually no big deal and assembled by designers to use common components that can be sourced through global supply chains.
mxtech1
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mxtech1 6/18/2019 5:43am
6/18/2019 5:43am
gjbruny wrote:
i have ridden 2 different altas and was ready to pull the trigger on an MXR as they shut down. the bikes are amazing and with...
i have ridden 2 different altas and was ready to pull the trigger on an MXR as they shut down.

the bikes are amazing and with the torque they have the really didn't need gears as much as i wanted to believe they did (prior to riding them).

having said that, i DO want a clutch both to modulate power and more importantly, when i grab a handful of throttle in an oh chit moment.

what people are failing to realize is that with an electric bike, the clutch wouldn't have to be the traditional clutch with a basket and plates. it could be wired into the speed controller that could override the throttle progressively as the lever was pulled in. it would add minimal weight and very little if any added complexity to the machine itself.

it is a must in my book but i would be happy if it was added as an option so that the guys that think they don't need it wouldn't bitch about the added cost.
peltier626 wrote:
Bingo! Software controlled by hardware.
This.

Eventually, the software and hardware will get so good that the designers can mimic the feel of gearboxes and clutches 100% through programming.

BobInIndy
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BobInIndy 6/18/2019 5:43am
6/18/2019 5:43am
endurox wrote:
Try splattering or zapping without a clutch. Gear box increases bikes range. The Mecatecno is actuallly lighter than the gas powered 2 stroke trials bike by...
Try splattering or zapping without a clutch. Gear box increases bikes range. The Mecatecno is actuallly lighter than the gas powered 2 stroke trials bike by 10 pounds or so and 20 pounds lighter than the Honda/Montesa 4 stroker.
Underground wrote:
I was thinking that with a gearbox, they could afford to run a smaller motor and therefor extend battery time for the same capacity battery.
Bingo.
Use a CVT, cut the motor size and weight in half, reduce the battery capacity by 30%. All by the use of multiple (or continuous) gearing.
You can get the same rear wheel torque with a much smaller power system.
mxtech1
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mxtech1 6/18/2019 5:58am
6/18/2019 5:58am
BobInIndy wrote:
Bingo. Use a CVT, cut the motor size and weight in half, reduce the battery capacity by 30%. All by the use of multiple (or continuous)...
Bingo.
Use a CVT, cut the motor size and weight in half, reduce the battery capacity by 30%. All by the use of multiple (or continuous) gearing.
You can get the same rear wheel torque with a much smaller power system.
A CVT would be perfect for "start mode" when you need to launch off the gate, but other than that, it would be useless once the speed is greater than say 2nd gear on an ICE bike.

Mr. Afterbar
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Mr. Afterbar 6/18/2019 6:11am
6/18/2019 6:11am
Yzf916 wrote:
NONE of this matters. Unlesss they get range up. Weight down. And price down. It will go the way of the Alta. And Tesla to follow...
NONE of this matters. Unlesss they get range up. Weight down. And price down. It will go the way of the Alta. And Tesla to follow. No matter how good it makes you "feel" to own one. If it's not ECONOMICALLY FEASABLE it's not going to be competitive with the ICE.
JM485 wrote:
Alta had not problem selling bikes, in fact they were sold out at shut down time, so. . . . . . . . .
Why did they shut down if it was a success?
endurox
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endurox 6/18/2019 10:47am
6/18/2019 10:47am
Yzf916 wrote:
NONE of this matters. Unlesss they get range up. Weight down. And price down. It will go the way of the Alta. And Tesla to follow...
NONE of this matters. Unlesss they get range up. Weight down. And price down. It will go the way of the Alta. And Tesla to follow. No matter how good it makes you "feel" to own one. If it's not ECONOMICALLY FEASABLE it's not going to be competitive with the ICE.
JM485 wrote:
Alta had not problem selling bikes, in fact they were sold out at shut down time, so. . . . . . . . .
Mr. Afterbar wrote:
Why did they shut down if it was a success?
Someone posted the cash burn at Alta a few months back, Boondoggling.

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