EFI 2 Strokes - Can they save the sport ?

colorado2day
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Edited Date/Time 4/10/2018 4:12pm
Fuel-injected 2 Stroke motocross bikes will come when the manufacturers believe that they are ready for prime-time or that the market is willing to bear the brunt of the change or when government cracks down on them. Fuel injection will not change how you ride your bike.

It was an open secret but finally confirmed what we all were expecting. 2 Stroke electronic injection reaches KTM. Will do so in the 2018 range of enduro bikes?

The entry into force of Euro 4 in 2017 and high pollutant gas restrictions has forced manufacturers to take drastic measures in their production if they wanted to continue to keep their catalog of 2 Stroke Enduro bikes.

Mattighofen been working for several years on a new engine with 250 and 300 2 strokes with electronic injection. It is no secret that KTM has been testing fuel-injection on two-strokes for some time. They have been as quiet as possible about it. Until Now.

Now at the Roof Of Africa the secret isn’t being hidden at all. FI equipped KTM 300s ran in a race that had a big variation in both elevation and temperature to shake out the bugs. A great real-world look at how fuel injection can benefit a two-stroke.

The reason for resisting FI has been cost and complexity but times are changing. With new emissions standards coming quickly in Europe and the popularity of the two-stroke world-wide, something must give.

The parts on the bikes at the Roof of Africa are very production looking and could be sourced from current four-strokes for the most part. The complexity is in the electronics controlling the system. Current 2 strokes already have the power to run the system and squirting fuel into an engine through an injector is nothing new. Having a little pre-mix blended in does not cause any issues. Oil Injection will make future systems even better.

The cost of carburetors is increasing to a point where the FI parts may be even be less expensive in total. From a production standpoint, it is the development time to get the mapping right that saddles the cost. 2 strokes are said to present some unique issues due to wildly varying exhaust temperatures and differing compression ratios based on RPM and exhaust valve movement– yet somehow the antiquated carb deals with these issues just fine. Or did they? Time will tell.

The advantages of EFI are many. Like increased fuel efficiency, longer power spreads, less loading up and even better throttle response. Sherco has a running FI 2 stroke and Ossa has a production 2 stroke trials bike that is FI.

When will we see this? We cannot be sure but an educated guess is 2019 for full production from KTM and Husqvarna. Do not be surprised if you see a “special factory edition” type from KTM even sooner.

One of the future big decisions will be whether to invest in a two-stroke or four-stroke engine. With the proliferation of misinformation regarding this subject, it’s easy to confuse fact and fiction. Not to worry. We’ll walk you through the fundamentals and add some clarity to the subject.

MX Sports should change the rules to equalize the displacement in both the 250 and 450 outdoor MX classes. The powers-that-be could easily write a rule that says, “The maximum displacement in the 250 class is 250cc regardless of the engine type and in the 450 class it is 450cc regardless of engine type.

This simple rewording of the current rules would spice up modern racing, by bringing competition into racing not just between riders and brands, but between engine types. It would also provide cheaper racing for riders on a budget. While there are no 450cc two-strokes currently in production, you could start with 300cc bikes for now (and just as they did with four-strokes initially, give Open class two-strokes an exemption to allow them to build big bores to compete on). This could encourage manufacturers to pursue more market share with 2 Strokes—since they aren’t setting the world on fire with four-stroke anymore.

And add a 125 Pro 2 Stroke Class at Select Nationals as an East/ West series with a final shootout in the existing National MX Series. Kind of Like the Youthstream has done with 2 Strokes in Europe?


EFI has been developed for 2-strokes and is having it's heyday in outboard marine engines. What does this mean to MX bikes?

An EFI 2-stroke is as clean, if not cleaner than a 4-stroke from an emissions perspective. In developing countries, the 2-stroke (say a scooter of 100-125cc) is something that can economical to manufacture, and which people can afford to buy. With millions of these being produced in places like China and Pakistan, with millions of people driving them in those countries, you want them as clean as possible, and for the 2-stroke, EFI is the solution.....

EFI would make more sense for the trail rider. Trail riders in Colorado for example are regularly in different altitudes and changing weather conditions more often than anyone riding at a track. Having a 2 stroke with perfect jetting at altitude is not something that can be accomplished with carburation.

Do not doubt the industry is enjoying the extra cost of the fourstroke era. Why are the silencers $300 anyway? They don't look any different than the 2 stroke silencers. But remember people saying the same thing when radiators were added, and disc brakes? and aluminum frames ? Yes modern bikes cost double the price they were twenty years ago, even taking inflation into consideration, but they are more reliable, have more power, and have better suspension than was available just a few short years ago.

Is it worth the extra cost? We must think it is because we are still buying bikes and what we buy drives the market. If nobody bought 4 Strokes with EFI, the factories would stop making them.

Honestly, you have to believe that if the 2-stroke dies, the sport may very likely go with it. We need cheap, easy to maintain bikes, so that future generations can afford to get into this sport to begin with.

And an EFI two-stroke would give anyone a "Boner"

How To Decide Between a 2 Stroke or 4 Stroke Outboard Boat Engine - Excerpt from gameandfishmag.com

TWO-STROKES

In a two-stroke engine, the fuel-air mixture enters the combustion chamber via a port in the side of the cylinder. The exhaust exits through another port in the cylinder.

Initially, two-stroke engines used carburetors to control the fuel-air mixture. But carbureted 2 Strokes aren’t particularly efficient. They also use a lot of fuel, and tend to be cantankerous creatures.

Today’s top-of-the-line Outboard two-stroke engines use a computerized Direct Fuel Injection (DFI) system to precisely regulate the fuel-air mix to suit the operating conditions. That results in amazing performance gains as well as great fuel economy and low emissions.

Typically, a two-stroke outboard is lighter than a similar-sized four-stroke engine because the two-stroke’s method of operation doesn’t require a valve train — camshafts, valves, belts or chains. Since the two-stroke isn’t encumbered with a valve train, the engine has fewer moving parts. Thus, it has less rotating mass and is lighter. A two-stroke outboard can often accelerate faster than the same horsepower four-stroke.

The engine’s internal components receive lubrication from oil mixed into the fuel.

Contrary to popular belief, two-strokes aren’t a dying breed. The fact is, carbureted two-strokes are going away due to their inability to comply with increasingly stringent emissions legislation. However, the DFI two-stroke outboards are thriving and remain popular.

FOUR-STROKES

Because of the valve train, a four-stroke outboard is usually heavier than a two-stroke outboard of the same horsepower. But, four-stroke manufacturers continue to pursue new ways to lighten the engines and extract more horsepower.

A four-stroke outboard’s lubrication system is like a car’s, complete with oil pan and filter — and the engine needs periodic oil changes to keep things running smooth.

The Majority of four-stroke outboards feature sophisticated computer engine management systems and fuel injection for good performance across the power band, low emissions, and fuel economy.

CHOOSE YOUR OUTBOARD

From an angler’s perspective, a boat is nothing but a means to get to where the fish are — a fishing platform — and the outboard is the driving force behind the boat. Tools of the trade, so to speak.

Taking that point of view, how do you pick the right outboard for your boat? Two-stroke or four-stroke — the broad answer is, it depends.

It depends on how you fish, where you fish, what kind of boat, and how much gear you carry with you.

If you’re a dedicated tournament angler, then you need an outboard that will pop the boat up on plane quickly and maximum top-end speed to get to the honey-holes before your competition does. In this case, a two-stroke will fill the bill nicely.

The kind of boat also dictates the best engine. For example, every boat has a placard stating the boat’s weight capacity; a smaller boat may not be able to tolerate the additional weight of a four-sttroke outboard. On the other hand, if your rig is one of the newer mega-boats — 21 feet plus, or if you fish alone and don’t take a bunch of extra stuff with you — then you can start looking at four-strokes.

A big boat or heavily loaded boat can benefit from the torque of a four-stroke outboard.

On the economic and practicality front, it’s important to consider who is going to service the engine and be there for you to take care of any potential warranty issues.

BOTTOM LINE

Fuel economy, emissions and speed are comparable between two-strokes and four-strokes. Two-strokes tend to weigh less but can accelerate faster. Four-strokes tend to have more torque than two-stroke outboards.

Both technologies are solid and highly evolved. Each has advantages and disadvantages.

Now you have a better idea which is the best for the transom of your fishing boat.

How about your Dirt Bike ?
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MotoX85
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12/6/2016 3:08pm
No, they can kill the return of the 2stroke, hence killing the sport even more than 4 strokes have...........and I own a 4 stroke.

The Shop

busta_FATmoto
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12/6/2016 3:16pm
2 stroke prices keep rising without fi. I'm assuming this will raise the cost so I don't see any change in bike sales or "saving the sport". Honestly I don't get the hype, I ride a yz250 and it runs great. That being said I've never rode a yz with fi and I bet it's real sweet.
MotoX85
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12/6/2016 3:18pm
OP - 125 cc class will not work, needs to be 122-250 2 stroke class. With the rules now set if you want to go pro you have to ride a 250F or 450F, nobody is going to ride a 125 till their 18 then try to jump on a 250F.

Also your boat motor comparison is way off, nobody rebuilds their boat motors after 20 hrs. If you did, everyone would be using 2 stroke motors.

However I do agree that it is way past the time of equal displacement classes. Factory 250Fs are making in excess of 55 hp, plenty enough to compete with 2 strokes. At this point, it is obvious that it is not happening cause someone is paying off the powers that be because they don't make a 250 2 stroke.
hillbilly
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12/6/2016 4:02pm
I think the 5 stroke should be seriously looked at.
crowe176
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12/6/2016 4:08pm
Electric bikes are the only thing that will save the sport on a local level.
hillbilly
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12/6/2016 4:56pm
crowe176 wrote:
Electric bikes are the only thing that will save the sport on a local level.
I can see it now, bikes on the line with all these mechanics totin generators behind trying to get the last bit of electrons into the storage.

And that one guy with a 40kW v8 generator self propelled.
hellion
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12/6/2016 5:00pm
This subject is getting tiring even for me, and I started one of the earliest threads about it long ago. We are our own worst enemy. We want progress for ourselves, but we don't want our sport to change too much and get too expensive. We can't really have it both ways. I've said it many times, I'm glad I grew up racing in the two stroke era. The genie is out of the bottle. There's no putting it back. Enjoy this sport, because even with all of its negatives, it's still the best thing there is.
hillbilly
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12/6/2016 5:25pm
Ya'll are probably to young to remember the 5 str maico or was it ccm, 2 str bottom with a 4 str head, built boost in a reservoir.
Skidaddle
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12/6/2016 6:53pm
Head to Head YZ250f vs YZ250 2 stroke

Head-to-head-yz250f-vs-yz250-two-stroke

Not an EFI 2 Stroke but you get the Idea
MotoX85 wrote:
Fuel injection is notorious for losing 2 -3 hp compared to a carb.

Um No. On everything else from boats to snowmobiles to even bikes, there is a considerable increase, and on a racing machine that does not have to meet emissions standards, it is considerable.

Maybe do some research before posting such stuff.
Plugga
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12/6/2016 7:00pm
MotoX85 wrote:
OP - 125 cc class will not work, needs to be 122-250 2 stroke class. With the rules now set if you want to go pro...
OP - 125 cc class will not work, needs to be 122-250 2 stroke class. With the rules now set if you want to go pro you have to ride a 250F or 450F, nobody is going to ride a 125 till their 18 then try to jump on a 250F.

Also your boat motor comparison is way off, nobody rebuilds their boat motors after 20 hrs. If you did, everyone would be using 2 stroke motors.

However I do agree that it is way past the time of equal displacement classes. Factory 250Fs are making in excess of 55 hp, plenty enough to compete with 2 strokes. At this point, it is obvious that it is not happening cause someone is paying off the powers that be because they don't make a 250 2 stroke.
hhhmmm...I wonder which one??Whistling

Seriously, you can only assume this is the reason the handicap rules have stayed in place.
Plugga
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12/6/2016 7:02pm
kzizok wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2016/12/06/163181/s1200_IMG_2362.jpg[/img]


Imagine what that joint smells like! Sick
Skidaddle
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12/6/2016 7:04pm
2 stroke prices keep rising without fi. I'm assuming this will raise the cost so I don't see any change in bike sales or "saving the...
2 stroke prices keep rising without fi. I'm assuming this will raise the cost so I don't see any change in bike sales or "saving the sport". Honestly I don't get the hype, I ride a yz250 and it runs great. That being said I've never rode a yz with fi and I bet it's real sweet.
On a same model outboard, it was 500 bucks.
On a same model snowmobile 25 years ago it was 350 bucks OEM. And that was 3 years before batteryless.

EFI plus Oil injection like the Beta 300 RR adds so much convenience it's foolproof.
kzizok
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12/6/2016 7:33pm
kzizok wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2016/12/06/163181/s1200_IMG_2362.jpg[/img]


Plugga wrote:
Imagine what that joint smells like! Sick
Probably better now that they put it indoors.


colorado2day
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12/6/2016 7:52pm
2 strokes are cheaper to build and maintain than a 4 stroke. Can anybody want to argue with that ?

EFI will not add considerable cost once the infrastructure is in place.

$10k fourstrokes or EV's are and will kill the Market.

Give kids a place to race on small, low maintenance EVs.

I would never attend a Race with all EV's, but a class or 2 ?

If MX Sports gave us a 125 series at select Nationals dealers would sell more bikes and more riders would participate. The rest of the issues would work themselves out. Think of the positives....

EFI wont work for high revving motors and make less horespower than a carb ?

Formula-1-engines-at-20000-rpm

Some of you guys are probably against pneumatic valves in a 4 stroke because they would make an engine lighter !

Nascar's reason for Not Using EFI ? They have decades of experience in regulating, inspecting and certifying Holley carburetors so they don't want to plow new territory with new fuel systems where the teams might find creative ways to be more competitive than they should be based on untested rules.

colorado2day
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12/7/2016 3:27pm
EFI May or May Not save the sport and help bring back lower cost 2 strokes, but it will help KTM and the Caveat of Global warming and pollution in India.

EFI on 2 Strokes will lower emissions by more than 50%

At present KTM AG is 51% owned by CROSS KraftFahrZeug Holding GmbH, a subsidiary of CROSS Industries AG and 47% owned by Bajaj Auto. CROSS Industries was founded by KTM's current CEO Stefan Pierer.

Bajaj Auto Limited is an Indian two-wheeler and three-wheeler manufacturing company. Bajaj Auto manufactures and sells motorcycles, scooters and auto rickshaws. Bajaj Auto is a part of the Bajaj Group.

Bajaj Auto is the world's sixth-largest manufacturer of motorcycles and the second-largest in India. It is the world’s largest three-wheeler manufacturer.

Most American companies could wish for as many likes as Facebook.com/indiaktm/



gsxr6
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12/7/2016 4:48pm
NASCAR has been injected for a few years. Tbi similar to whats on a dirt bike
Bearuno
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12/7/2016 4:59pm
hillbilly wrote:
Ya'll are probably to young to remember the 5 str maico or was it ccm, 2 str bottom with a 4 str head, built boost in...
Ya'll are probably to young to remember the 5 str maico or was it ccm, 2 str bottom with a 4 str head, built boost in a reservoir.
CCM called their's a '5 Stroke' engine. In the first biography of CCM - "Rolling Thunder", by Bill Lawless, they have a brief mention of it, and it having some government funding, and a fairly unsatisfying picture of it on a dyno.

There are quite a few '5 stroke' engines that have been developed - the most common using extra pistons / compression chambers, but the CCM and the Maico used plenum chambers to store fuel charge - it was what many would call a self supercharged 4t, using the crankcase / piston as the supercharger, a number of reed valves, the plenum chamber as an accumulator for charge, thence into the combustion chamber via a conventional poppet valve(s).

An issue of Dirt Bike had a brief story on an XR80 engine FMF were using as a test mule for the same sort of idea. many years ago, with a headline along the lines of "the future of 4 strokes''. Never saw anything further about it.

I've got quite a few pictures of the Maico - from waaaaaay back around 1980 /81, in Germany. I've had a picture of it as part of my signature on another site for nearly 10 years - yet, I've only had about 4 inquiries about it. I've also previously put up a picture of it on this site. But, people are largely happy to be ignorant, or are more interested in their next graphics kit, than real engineering........

Here's one picture for those who might be interested in something that is genuinely interesting, at least for those with a real mechanical engineering bent :

aka255
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3/23/2018 7:50pm
hillbilly wrote:
Ya'll are probably to young to remember the 5 str maico or was it ccm, 2 str bottom with a 4 str head, built boost in...
Ya'll are probably to young to remember the 5 str maico or was it ccm, 2 str bottom with a 4 str head, built boost in a reservoir.
Bearuno wrote:
CCM called their's a '5 Stroke' engine. In the first biography of CCM - "Rolling Thunder", by Bill Lawless, they have a brief mention of it...
CCM called their's a '5 Stroke' engine. In the first biography of CCM - "Rolling Thunder", by Bill Lawless, they have a brief mention of it, and it having some government funding, and a fairly unsatisfying picture of it on a dyno.

There are quite a few '5 stroke' engines that have been developed - the most common using extra pistons / compression chambers, but the CCM and the Maico used plenum chambers to store fuel charge - it was what many would call a self supercharged 4t, using the crankcase / piston as the supercharger, a number of reed valves, the plenum chamber as an accumulator for charge, thence into the combustion chamber via a conventional poppet valve(s).

An issue of Dirt Bike had a brief story on an XR80 engine FMF were using as a test mule for the same sort of idea. many years ago, with a headline along the lines of "the future of 4 strokes''. Never saw anything further about it.

I've got quite a few pictures of the Maico - from waaaaaay back around 1980 /81, in Germany. I've had a picture of it as part of my signature on another site for nearly 10 years - yet, I've only had about 4 inquiries about it. I've also previously put up a picture of it on this site. But, people are largely happy to be ignorant, or are more interested in their next graphics kit, than real engineering........

Here's one picture for those who might be interested in something that is genuinely interesting, at least for those with a real mechanical engineering bent :

Heck, I'm not a mechanical engineer, just civil and that still gives me a hard one.
Bry145
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Bridgeville, PA US
3/23/2018 8:32pm
EFI adds to the cost of the machine. And it adds complexity to maintenance. Remember the Honda EXP?

A two-stroke with a carb is an affordable dirt bike. The jetting on my YZ250 has never been touched aside from a leaner main for a RAD Valve. It runs perfect, doesn't ping on 91 pump, and the piston looked fine when rebuilt.

I do not want a 9K EFI YZ250.
A 7K carb-equipped YZ250 is best for the common man.

Cost is very important in motocross as many participants are blue-collar types. And many participants want to be able to afford a bike for both dad and junior so they can ride together.





PJRAUS
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AU
3/24/2018 3:29am
I don't think efi two strokes will save the sport...
Where I live, bike sales are still strong, it's just that nobody races here much anymore.
That is 100% down to the cost of racing / value for money ratio,...

The advent of ride parks in Australia offer riders well prepared tracks with unlimited track time..ride all day...no license..no officialdom ....no waiting around for your 5 minute Moto...and much ,much cheaper.....massively cheaper!!
I want to race the 4 rounds of the Victorian state mx championship this year, 3 classes...vets over 45 , c grade mx1 and c grade mx 2. The entry fees for each of the 4 rounds will be approximately $320 based on last years cost...

Where I live, the only thing that can save the sport is to break up junior racing from senior racing...never running both on the same track on the same day,so as to give each some room for decent length motos.
Ban prize money unless the purse is sourced from some other area other than rider entry fees .
And ultimately getting Motorcycling Australia entirely out of our sport and replacing them with private promoters who's business model depends utterly on providing value for money mx racing....
The bikes themselves don't matter anywhere near as much as the above mentioned subjects..we've had displacement parity for a long time in Australia but it is not saving racing....racing turnouts continue to decline
Drtbykr
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3/24/2018 5:55am Edited Date/Time 3/24/2018 6:55am
Electric might help save moto. by opening up more riding areas due to the noise factor.

But people will have to wear a helmet that makes 2 or 4 stroke noises or your fav. tunes, pick your preference.

Off-road, I’ve drowned my bike many times. With a carb., after about 30 minutes work, the thing will fart up again and you can ride the beast home and change the oil 6x. Electric bike swim will have all the fish floating to the top, lol. Kind of like fish rescues people do where I work.

The moto part, the stars injuries must play a part. I loved bikes, but my Dad didn’t. Ruined my Brother in laws quality of life and my brothers incredible hockey career was put off the rail by bike accidents. He said at least in hawky the injuries are usually much less severe. Bought me a couple of trail bikes as I worked hard for him, but no racing for you.

Ironically he passed when I was in high school and my next 2 moods of transportation were a new Honda 750 and the day after college a 750 Seca. Not sure how that era was survived, luck..fate.

At the SX races, Mom, “where is your favourite rider”? Little Johnny, “he is broke in half, be back in two weeks”.
Mom, or Dad, “no bike for you”.

There isn’t much sense of buying anything if you have no where to use it. Jeez, if you have two acres you could have a small track and not bother anyone with an electric bike.



PJRAUS
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AU
3/24/2018 6:12am
Drtbykr wrote:
Electric might help save moto. by opening up more riding areas due to the noise factor. But people will have to wear a helmet that makes...
Electric might help save moto. by opening up more riding areas due to the noise factor.

But people will have to wear a helmet that makes 2 or 4 stroke noises or your fav. tunes, pick your preference.

Off-road, I’ve drowned my bike many times. With a carb., after about 30 minutes work, the thing will fart up again and you can ride the beast home and change the oil 6x. Electric bike swim will have all the fish floating to the top, lol. Kind of like fish rescues people do where I work.

The moto part, the stars injuries must play a part. I loved bikes, but my Dad didn’t. Ruined my Brother in laws quality of life and my brothers incredible hockey career was put off the rail by bike accidents. He said at least in hawky the injuries are usually much less severe. Bought me a couple of trail bikes as I worked hard for him, but no racing for you.

Ironically he passed when I was in high school and my next 2 moods of transportation were a new Honda 750 and the day after college a 750 Seca. Not sure how that era was survived, luck..fate.

At the SX races, Mom, “where is your favourite rider”? Little Johnny, “he is broke in half, be back in two weeks”.
Mom, or Dad, “no bike for you”.

There isn’t much sense of buying anything if you have no where to use it. Jeez, if you have two acres you could have a small track and not bother anyone with an electric bike.



That's a valid point.... I believe supercross is setting a bad example with the stars constantly injured...parents seeing that won't want their kids involved in the sport.
I've always considered freestyle mx to be a very bad example...it has a much higher visibility than motocross racing....kids are drawn to it..you see ramps and dirt landing pads everywhere when you drive around the countryside here...
So many kids ending up in wheelchairs trying to emulate the back flipping antics of their fmx heroes...I'm certain that this has had a negative effect on the participation rate in our sport.
bigmaico
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Kingwood, TX US
3/24/2018 6:27am
hillbilly wrote:
Ya'll are probably to young to remember the 5 str maico or was it ccm, 2 str bottom with a 4 str head, built boost in...
Ya'll are probably to young to remember the 5 str maico or was it ccm, 2 str bottom with a 4 str head, built boost in a reservoir.
Bearuno wrote:
CCM called their's a '5 Stroke' engine. In the first biography of CCM - "Rolling Thunder", by Bill Lawless, they have a brief mention of it...
CCM called their's a '5 Stroke' engine. In the first biography of CCM - "Rolling Thunder", by Bill Lawless, they have a brief mention of it, and it having some government funding, and a fairly unsatisfying picture of it on a dyno.

There are quite a few '5 stroke' engines that have been developed - the most common using extra pistons / compression chambers, but the CCM and the Maico used plenum chambers to store fuel charge - it was what many would call a self supercharged 4t, using the crankcase / piston as the supercharger, a number of reed valves, the plenum chamber as an accumulator for charge, thence into the combustion chamber via a conventional poppet valve(s).

An issue of Dirt Bike had a brief story on an XR80 engine FMF were using as a test mule for the same sort of idea. many years ago, with a headline along the lines of "the future of 4 strokes''. Never saw anything further about it.

I've got quite a few pictures of the Maico - from waaaaaay back around 1980 /81, in Germany. I've had a picture of it as part of my signature on another site for nearly 10 years - yet, I've only had about 4 inquiries about it. I've also previously put up a picture of it on this site. But, people are largely happy to be ignorant, or are more interested in their next graphics kit, than real engineering........

Here's one picture for those who might be interested in something that is genuinely interesting, at least for those with a real mechanical engineering bent :

Bearuno,


Please start a post with all the info on the 4 stroke Maico!

I've only see 2 pictures of the 4 stroke Maico & I'd like to learn more on the concept.

Thanks!

Howard


3/24/2018 6:35am
Nope. The only thing that will save the sport over here is electric bikes. 68+ million on this little island. Literally never out of ear shot of some residence.

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