Does 15 years of development matter?

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10/6/2019 5:16 PM

Sure didn’t look that way for the Honda boys last night.

Sure wish they’d just crank up the machining from 2007 and spit a few hundred units out.

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Alright Lunger, Let's Do It

10/6/2019 5:32 PM

Beat me to it!
I was thinking the same, time to acknowledge that in MX/SX the rider is what matters. 90% rider 10% machine. And all the industry experts justifying how KTMs are way superior than other 2 strokes. Guess they are scratching their heads.

How cool would have been Roczen winning on the 96 CR. You can bet KTM is not happy.

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10/6/2019 5:42 PM

I will say Leib was clearly underpowered but come on, the 2002 CR was slow in 2002!

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Alright Lunger, Let's Do It

10/6/2019 11:46 PM

I think this would be a good era for Honda to produce a limited edition of McGrath's CR 250's, or the same for Roczen...I would be first in line.

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There's something happening here, what it is ain't exactly clear.

10/6/2019 11:58 PM

Johnny Ringo wrote:

I will say Leib was clearly underpowered but come on, the 2002 CR was slow in 2002!

A little bit of porting and a 2002 cr250 was untouchable in its class. They had top end for days.

I raced one in a barrel race on the beach with drums 700m apart and won by 700m after 4 laps...definitely not slow.

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10/7/2019 4:51 AM

The only nice part about the ktm/husky smokers is the counter balancer.

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10/7/2019 5:11 AM

He had factory suspension

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10/7/2019 5:13 AM

No.

There’s a bell curve to progression and innovation of all types and the curve softened A LOT in the very late 90s and early 2000s. There will only be incremental improvements to actual speed translated to the rider from here on, regardless of tech.

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10/7/2019 5:20 AM

They may not even have the tooling for that anymore.

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10/7/2019 5:59 AM

Johnny Ringo wrote:

I will say Leib was clearly underpowered but come on, the 2002 CR was slow in 2002!

fullysicmate wrote:

A little bit of porting and a 2002 cr250 was untouchable in its class. They had top end for days.

I raced one in a barrel race on the beach with drums 700m apart and won by 700m after 4 laps...definitely not slow.

I was talking the 125 specifically. The 250s looked super competitive

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Alright Lunger, Let's Do It

10/7/2019 6:00 AM

Johnny Ringo wrote:

I will say Leib was clearly underpowered but come on, the 2002 CR was slow in 2002!

ML was super impressive... I suspect that was a 144, but he was up against those KTM 150's. Was not giving up as much as I expected.

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'75-'83 through the minicycle boom.
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I was fast... But being fast is relative to who else is on the track with you.

ZachO fan! ZO16

TG243 fan!

10/7/2019 6:10 AM

because obviously a bunch of pros mucking around on a 40sec straight bit of sx track is a benchmark we should all be in awe of...

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10/7/2019 6:25 AM

Happen to get a look at the suspension an triple clamps on Kenny's bike? Think that was available 15 years ago? Want to justify KTM how about a up and coming 250 guy who has never won a single race racing in the final against 1 of the top riders in the world..just saying

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10/7/2019 6:42 AM

I saw a seasoned world champ on a works HRC Honda beat a rookie. Am I missing something?

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10/7/2019 6:52 AM

I'm with Newmann on this one...

Lieb and Roczen have far more years/ laps of experience in Supercross and while the "kids" might have "more" two-stroke experience, being able to lean on one's SX skills (regardless of bike) speaks volumes for experience.

Simple equation for you: Kenny + Whoop-Speed = RBSR win (Bike is irrelevant) hahaha





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10/7/2019 7:18 AM
Edited Date/Time: 10/7/2019 7:36 AM

I'm looking at it from a different point of view. The KTM / Huskies finally caught up to Honda's 2002 technology & are now competitive. It just took them 15 yrs. to get there..

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Speak softly and carry a big stick.

10/7/2019 10:50 AM

KTM has continued to do a little bit of advancement on their 2 strokes.

if you put a KTM 125's against a YZ125 which had the biggest update of all the Jap bikes in the 2000s the KTM is lighter and has a lot more horsepower

and its the same with the 250's as well.

Ultimately rider skill can make up a lot of ground on 2 strokes but it sections where you need more power you're gonna fall behind

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"If you feel in control, you're not going fast enough" ~Mario Andretti

10/7/2019 11:29 AM

Johnny Ringo wrote:

I will say Leib was clearly underpowered but come on, the 2002 CR was slow in 2002!

Press516 wrote:

ML was super impressive... I suspect that was a 144, but he was up against those KTM 150's. Was not giving up as much as I expected.

You cannot make a CR 125 that big. Because of the cylinder. Max is 134...i think. He rode the wheels off that turd.

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Did i do that?

10/7/2019 11:38 AM

I think you guys are putting a little too much emphasis on this.

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10/7/2019 12:17 PM

Zaugg wrote:

I'm with Newmann on this one...

Lieb and Roczen have far more years/ laps of experience in Supercross and while the "kids" might have "more" two-stroke experience, being able to lean on one's SX skills (regardless of bike) speaks volumes for experience.

Simple equation for you: Kenny + Whoop-Speed = RBSR win (Bike is irrelevant) hahaha





So why didnt the 2019 SX champ not beat everyone?

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Current rides: 2019 CRF450RWE and 2019 TC300
Occasional ride for VMX: 1985 CR500RF
Adventure/Road bike: CRF1000L

10/7/2019 12:18 PM

Johnny Ringo wrote:

I will say Leib was clearly underpowered but come on, the 2002 CR was slow in 2002!

Press516 wrote:

ML was super impressive... I suspect that was a 144, but he was up against those KTM 150's. Was not giving up as much as I expected.

Travis_Hudson wrote:

You cannot make a CR 125 that big. Because of the cylinder. Max is 134...i think. He rode the wheels off that turd.

Correct, it was a 134

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Current rides: 2019 CRF450RWE and 2019 TC300
Occasional ride for VMX: 1985 CR500RF
Adventure/Road bike: CRF1000L

10/7/2019 12:20 PM

For them? No because they got all the tools to make a bike competive.

For us? Yes, because a stock Honda,Yamaha or whatever Japanese brand is no where a stock KTM/Husky.

You can make them allot better but you need to have some cash for that.

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10/7/2019 12:52 PM

I think this just might be the biggest thing revealed last weekend....... that even an old ass 06' can probably go just as fast as a 2020 Yami or KTM.........

it also showed that we simply don't need 4 strokes to have a great time while racing, or even while just watching the racing.......

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Die Antwoord

10/7/2019 1:52 PM
Edited Date/Time: 10/7/2019 1:56 PM

Last time I checked 99.99999% of all motocross and supercross races have corners in them and last longer than 40 seconds. Along with the fact 99.99999% of all riders/racers don't have a squad of factory technicians from the most storied & successful motorcycle racing engineering outfits building and maintaining their bike. And said bike being ridden by a world class elite level champion.

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10/7/2019 2:05 PM

Alex.434 wrote:

Last time I checked 99.99999% of all motocross and supercross races have corners in them and last longer than 40 seconds. Along with the fact 99.99999% of all riders/racers don't have a squad of factory technicians from the most storied & successful motorcycle racing engineering outfits building and maintaining their bike. And said bike being ridden by a world class elite level champion.

I knew you rode a husky without even looking at your avatar

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Alright Lunger, Let's Do It

10/7/2019 2:38 PM
Edited Date/Time: 10/7/2019 2:40 PM

Alex.434 wrote:

Last time I checked 99.99999% of all motocross and supercross races have corners in them and last longer than 40 seconds. Along with the fact 99.99999% of all riders/racers don't have a squad of factory technicians from the most storied & successful motorcycle racing engineering outfits building and maintaining their bike. And said bike being ridden by a world class elite level champion.

Johnny Ringo wrote:

I knew you rode a husky without even looking at your avatar

So what? My garage has Yamaha's, Husqvarna's, Honda's, Alta's, Suzuki's, and Polaris's in it, but don't let facts get in the way of a good story!

Point is you are taking an incredibly narrow example, with huge caveats, and trying to apply it to showroom stock bikes. Yes current generation two strokes are better than their mid-2000's counterparts because they are benefiting from overall mx bike development changes (chassis, suspension, components), and some small refinements to the power plant.

But using Ken Roczen's CR250, or Leib's CR125 from RBSR, at RBSR, isn't some sort of quality sample comparison mate. That's like saying your neighbor kicks everyone ass in the neighborhood on his '73 Maico so obviously Maico's are still competitive.

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10/7/2019 2:41 PM
Edited Date/Time: 10/7/2019 2:42 PM

Oh and I agree with you. I said, while watching RBSR, that if Honda made 1000 modern CR250's they could charge $12,000 each and they'd sell out in 10 minutes.

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10/7/2019 2:48 PM

gt80rider wrote:

I think this just might be the biggest thing revealed last weekend....... that even an old ass 06' can probably go just as fast as a 2020 Yami or KTM.........

it also showed that we simply don't need 4 strokes to have a great time while racing, or even while just watching the racing.......

To be fair, that's not just any CR250. It's a legit HRC bike

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10/7/2019 2:58 PM

Roczen on a KTM would of have won the rounds with a 39 sec gap

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10/7/2019 2:59 PM

Bet it had a Factory ECU

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